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Dividing the championship will never work

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If dividing the championship will never work, why does each county have Senior Intermediate and Junior grades? MadgeKing (Cavan) - Posts: 493 - 25/05/2016 10:31:37 1858378 Link
So player's in weak counties don't want a second tier but don't want to be hammered out the gate by the big boys. What to do so? We can go to an open group based on league standing but the lower league team's will still be beat. yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 25/05/2016 10:39:37 1858380 Link
Replying To yew_tree: "So player's in weak counties don't want a second tier but don't want to be hammered out the gate by the big boys. What to do so? We can go to an open group based on league standing but the lower league team's will still be beat." I believe that a round robin system should apply to the provincial championships, with the counties playing a number of games to provide semi finalists/ finalists. This would mean that the qualifiers would no longer apply. The counties already out of their provincial championships, now sit around for 6 weeks until the qualifier begin, it does no good for players in the beaten counties. Leinster proposed this recently, but it did not get the required majority at Congress, counties outside Leinster deciding how another province run their competitions. The 4 provinces presently apply different systems in their championships,seeding, open draw etc. I wonder would a national co-ordinating body help in this area?. Connacht and Munster with 5 and 6 teams respectively, plus London and New York in Connacht, play finals in July, while Leinster and Ulster, 11 and 9 teams each, having finals in July. A June date for finals in Connacht and Munster, would make more sense to me, and allow more time for the knockout games, leading to the Football final played on an earlier date. The hurling final with maybe 12 to 14 teams, should be played in August. I fail to see why in 2016, the All Ireland series cannot be run off in a period from late April to August. The Gaa proposed something like this recently, but there seems to be a bit of resistance to what is a good idea. The thrust of this proposal is that counties run off their club championships earlier than at present to allow the club All Ireland finals be completed in December. The running or not running of county competitions varies from county to county, depending on the particular county, at present. What do people think? P thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1746 - 25/05/2016 12:32:48 1858450 Link
Replying To MadgeKing: "If dividing the championship will never work, why does each county have Senior Intermediate and Junior grades?" It's different. Intercounty football is the representative level of the game. It's the top level of the game its what everyone aspires to. If you segregate teams then those left in the lower tier will find it increasingly harder to progress. You maybe then start losing elite players to other sports. In the 90s Monaghan had a run of consecutive Ulster championship loses. If they'd have been shipped off to a second tier level would McManus be playing Gaelic football. There isn't a huge need for it either. Football is more even than you'd think. Look at Fermanagh in division 4 and losing to London in the championship. A few years later they're in the AI QF and in division 2. The top 4 teams can hammer anybody on their day, the bottom 6-8 teams are pretty poor at the minute but other than that there's a large clump of team not very far off each other. There used to be more competitive teams about but the changing of the NFL I feel has created something of a gulf between the top 4/5 teams and the rest. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 25/05/2016 13:13:09 1858474 Link
The provincials need to be done away with and will become apparent as the years go on, its to open to gerrymandering based on knowing who your semi final draw could be against. I wouldnt be surprised to see provincial championships being thrown to increase the chances of avoiding certain teams, even this year. Regardless its been unfair for decades, Munster and Connacht have never been strong and its been to easy for certain teams to get a leg up with success they probably wouldnt with an open championship. Leinster and Ulster have traditionaly been strong and competitive as such an all Ireland in that direction is well won - less so now in Leinster which has gone the way of the other to provinces, needs scrapping and a form of seeded open championship draw is required. Seed on the basis of league performence. Would mean more games for the unseeded developing teams. Less for those who played ++ League games. Equity away from the provincial processions and thus across the game. Really Ulster teams are playing a harder game then any other province. I think we would see a great correction in the success lists historically. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 25/05/2016 14:28:05 1858517 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It's different. Intercounty football is the representative level of the game. It's the top level of the game its what everyone aspires to. If you segregate teams then those left in the lower tier will find it increasingly harder to progress. You maybe then start losing elite players to other sports. In the 90s Monaghan had a run of consecutive Ulster championship loses. If they'd have been shipped off to a second tier level would McManus be playing Gaelic football. There isn't a huge need for it either. Football is more even than you'd think. Look at Fermanagh in division 4 and losing to London in the championship. A few years later they're in the AI QF and in division 2. The top 4 teams can hammer anybody on their day, the bottom 6-8 teams are pretty poor at the minute but other than that there's a large clump of team not very far off each other. There used to be more competitive teams about but the changing of the NFL I feel has created something of a gulf between the top 4/5 teams and the rest." I don't get the logic here. It's not as if you are doomed to a second tier competition forever. Monaghan and Fermanagh have improved, that is why now they would deserve to be in the top tier. when they were bad (just like cavan who lost 7 first round ulster championship games on the trot in the 80s) they didn't deserve to be at the top table. perhaps if cavan had to go in to a secondary competition at that time it would have given the county more competitive games , they could have progressed to a final of the competition , improved as they went along. fair play to the likes of Fermanagh,cavan,Monaghan,clare,roscommon who have upped their game recently, But there was a time when they had hit rock bottom and the all-ireland championship only deflated them further. There are some counties however who never seem to progress and under the current system they never will. s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 25/05/2016 14:47:46 1858530 Link
Realistically, what are the options? No amount of tweaking with the structures will make Clare or Wicklow competitive with Kerry or Dublin. The way I see it we can either... 1) have a 2 tiered championship based on league standing with the winner of the 2nd tier guaranteed promotion and untangled from the provincials. The players from smaller counties have rejected this but really, if they'd prefer to go out and get hammered every summer, should the GAA even consider their opinions? 2) better support the smaller counties. This world require huge amounts of money being pumped into division 3 & 4 counties to support their development plans (if they have one). money would have to be diverted from larger counties and other projects practically indefinitely. muffinbutton (Clare) - Posts: 20 - 25/05/2016 14:52:17 1858533 Link
The bottom line is that something needs changed as the current system is broke. I don't see any reason why a B championship would not work if teams knew that is where they are playing for that particular year. There is intermediate, junior, etc. at club level and clubs love winning those competitions. If you win the B championship then you get promoted for the following year. If you compare it to any other sport for instance soccer, its like saying a Division 2 side should be playing in the premier league. You should have to earn the right to play at the top. Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 25/05/2016 15:49:35 1858557 Link
Replying To s goldrick: "I don't get the logic here. It's not as if you are doomed to a second tier competition forever. Monaghan and Fermanagh have improved, that is why now they would deserve to be in the top tier. when they were bad (just like cavan who lost 7 first round ulster championship games on the trot in the 80s) they didn't deserve to be at the top table. perhaps if cavan had to go in to a secondary competition at that time it would have given the county more competitive games , they could have progressed to a final of the competition , improved as they went along. fair play to the likes of Fermanagh,cavan,Monaghan,clare,roscommon who have upped their game recently, But there was a time when they had hit rock bottom and the all-ireland championship only deflated them further. There are some counties however who never seem to progress and under the current system they never will." I'd be worried that football would die in counties perennially outside the top tier. In any given year there are teams that are on a hiding to nothing but what I'm saying is those teams are very subject to change. If you introduce a 2 tiered system it makes it harder to drum up interest in the games within that county. People talk about the success of the tiered system in hurling but only about 4.5k people turned up for last years Christy Ring final. Antrim and Fermanagh in the Ulster quarter in 2015 had 7.5k. There isn't the interest for B competitions and they would hurt the long term futures of those competing in them. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 25/05/2016 15:59:07 1858563 Link
Replying To Green_Gold: "The bottom line is that something needs changed as the current system is broke. I don't see any reason why a B championship would not work if teams knew that is where they are playing for that particular year. There is intermediate, junior, etc. at club level and clubs love winning those competitions. If you win the B championship then you get promoted for the following year. If you compare it to any other sport for instance soccer, its like saying a Division 2 side should be playing in the premier league. You should have to earn the right to play at the top." It being the representative level of the game it is more comparable to international soccer or rugby. Those sports go out of their way to be inclusive. Who are you looking to benefit with a B championship. It couldn't be more clear that players don't want. I'd be surprised if fans would be all that interested in it. If you want to really improve the season you move the league so that is is played in parallel to the championship. League one week championship the next. Get the season finished by August bank holiday. Get league and provincial championships finished by the end of June. The big problem is the training to games ratio. This would fix that. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 25/05/2016 16:39:47 1858580 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "It being the representative level of the game it is more comparable to international soccer or rugby. Those sports go out of their way to be inclusive. Who are you looking to benefit with a B championship. It couldn't be more clear that players don't want. I'd be surprised if fans would be all that interested in it. If you want to really improve the season you move the league so that is is played in parallel to the championship. League one week championship the next. Get the season finished by August bank holiday. Get league and provincial championships finished by the end of June. The big problem is the training to games ratio. This would fix that." Whammo86 I totally get what you say about it trying to be inclusive and the comparison to premier league soccer is a poor one. Is a solution to have the weaker teams play qualifiers to enter the all-Ireland series, like the World cup and Euro qualifiers? To be honest the whole fixture calendar is a complete disaster. Even the simple motion to move the All-Ireland final forward two weeks got defeated at congress. I thought there were some great ideas put forward last year on how to change the championship format. Jim McGuinness had one where your league and provincial championship results determined whether you went into the A or B championship. He proposed having the B championship final played before the All-Ireland final as an incentive. Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 25/05/2016 17:12:44 1858591 Link
The best variation on the JmcG/SK I have seen was given by John Evans - he had a 4-6-1-5 plan to determine the 16 for the A Championship (Sam) - Top seeds are 4 Prov Champs (ranked by NFL); then Top 6 of NFL (less Prov Champs); then prior year B Champ; then the 5 runners-up (Provs and prior B based on NFL ranking); then best in NFL not yet included, to complete the 16. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 25/05/2016 19:21:14 1858622 Link
Replying To omahant: "The best variation on the JmcG/SK I have seen was given by John Evans - he had a 4-6-1-5 plan to determine the 16 for the A Championship (Sam) - Top seeds are 4 Prov Champs (ranked by NFL); then Top 6 of NFL (less Prov Champs); then prior year B Champ; then the 5 runners-up (Provs and prior B based on NFL ranking); then best in NFL not yet included, to complete the 16." It is too convoluted. A Round of 16 as I suggested is straightforward enough. Seeding teams based on league placing is also straightforward. Everyone will have a fair enough idea of where they stand. If they wished, they could opt for 50% representation from each province in the final 16. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 25/05/2016 19:44:45 1858628 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "It is too convoluted. A Round of 16 as I suggested is straightforward enough. Seeding teams based on league placing is also straightforward. Everyone will have a fair enough idea of where they stand. If they wished, they could opt for 50% representation from each province in the final 16." Fair enough - your Qual seeding via NFL also neuralizes the prov imbalances. Still like my 4 Champs playoff and 20 team Open Draw Qualifiers - the Playoffs and Open Draw on average should generate some good pairings (seeding not needed via the 3rd chance limited to 8 Rd 1 losers). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 25/05/2016 20:13:49 1858636 Link
Replying To MadgeKing: "If dividing the championship will never work, why does each county have Senior Intermediate and Junior grades?" As I said in my original post, changing the system will mean that the media interest, and interest in terms of crowds attending games will be massively lowered. Also, how many top players from weaker counties wont bother committing to their county team because they cant play in a senior championship. Changing the championship will benefit the top teams, but it will kill football in the smaller counties. PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1656 - 25/05/2016 21:46:10 1858695 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I'd be worried that football would die in counties perennially outside the top tier. In any given year there are teams that are on a hiding to nothing but what I'm saying is those teams are very subject to change. If you introduce a 2 tiered system it makes it harder to drum up interest in the games within that county. People talk about the success of the tiered system in hurling but only about 4.5k people turned up for last years Christy Ring final. Antrim and Fermanagh in the Ulster quarter in 2015 had 7.5k. There isn't the interest for B competitions and they would hurt the long term futures of those competing in them." Yes I kinda understand that. I suppose it's different for Antrim in Ulster, They are not far behind the rest and there is always a chance that they can get a win or two but take Carlow in Leinster for example, I don't get it why they would rather go out every year and get hammered (in the game of course) than have a chance of winning some games against similar opposition. I mean is there any prestige in Carlow competing in the Leinster championship at the present time. They are out of it already and have probably 6 weeks to wait for a qualifier which they will most likely get hammered in too. s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 26/05/2016 10:30:45 1858751 Link
Replying To s goldrick: "Yes I kinda understand that. I suppose it's different for Antrim in Ulster, They are not far behind the rest and there is always a chance that they can get a win or two but take Carlow in Leinster for example, I don't get it why they would rather go out every year and get hammered (in the game of course) than have a chance of winning some games against similar opposition. I mean is there any prestige in Carlow competing in the Leinster championship at the present time. They are out of it already and have probably 6 weeks to wait for a qualifier which they will most likely get hammered in too." Yeh I think there are a few counties in the same boat as Carlow. Wicklow, London, Leitrim and Waterford. I think the other counties are all in ok shape really. In the era of the back door almost all of those teams have made a provincial final or AI qf. Even London have made the Connacht final. There's really not a whole lot can be done with these counties. I mean they're not even competitive at their own division 4 level with almost all out of the promotion picture after 3/4 weeks. If you want to change the championship provide more games or play it off quicker. I don't think it would be wise to segregate the championship though. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 26/05/2016 11:03:19 1858774 Link
Something that could be done would involve separating the provincial series from the AI series. 3 Tiers A 10 teams B 10 teams C 12 teams A team winning their tier gets a place in the QF of the higher tier. Semi-finalists and relegated teams from the previous year go straight into the QF of their tier the next year. First round is played by the other teams. So you have Tier C 12 teams regular knockout 8 teams play first round, moving on to QF and a tier C champion. Tier B 4 teams get a bye into qf, that year's tier C winner joins them. 6 other teams playoff for 3 remaining qf places. 3 losing teams plus the tier C runner up playoff to determine relegation. Same format for tier A. Basically the competition is seeded so that teams enter at different stages and are playing teams at their level. Separating the competition from the provincials makes scheduling easier. Tier C is played off first. You aren't leaving teams going out early waiting 6 weeks until their next game. Every team is involved in the AI playing meaningful matches and retaining a chance of winning silverware along the way. A team performing well one year progresses then starts further along the road the following year. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 27/05/2016 10:05:00 1859211 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Something that could be done would involve separating the provincial series from the AI series. 3 Tiers A 10 teams B 10 teams C 12 teams A team winning their tier gets a place in the QF of the higher tier. Semi-finalists and relegated teams from the previous year go straight into the QF of their tier the next year. First round is played by the other teams. So you have Tier C 12 teams regular knockout 8 teams play first round, moving on to QF and a tier C champion. Tier B 4 teams get a bye into qf, that year's tier C winner joins them. 6 other teams playoff for 3 remaining qf places. 3 losing teams plus the tier C runner up playoff to determine relegation. Same format for tier A. Basically the competition is seeded so that teams enter at different stages and are playing teams at their level. Separating the competition from the provincials makes scheduling easier. Tier C is played off first. You aren't leaving teams going out early waiting 6 weeks until their next game. Every team is involved in the AI playing meaningful matches and retaining a chance of winning silverware along the way. A team performing well one year progresses then starts further along the road the following year." In Tier A the provincial champions get the bye. If a provincial champion is from outside Tier A they have play in the playoff round Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 27/05/2016 10:52:58 1859236 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "In Tier A the provincial champions get the bye. If a provincial champion is from outside Tier A they have play in the playoff round" For me the difficulty is the lobsided nature of the provincial championships. While there are 6 counties playing in Munster and Connacht and 11 playing in Leinster it is never going to be fair. The Provincial Championships must be separated from the All-Ireland series. In addition the Leitrim Manager said last week that Leitrim players could only look forward to 2 Championship games per year - not enough to gain experience when compared to the top teams playing 6 or 7 per year. He also said Leitrim U21s get 1 game most years. To prepare for the intensity of Championship you need experience of Championship games. I also think every county deserves to be able to play for Sam Maguire every year so the idea of a B Championship separately is incorrect. What we need, in my opinion, is for the so-called weaker counties to have the opportunity to improve, to play more Championship games while being cognisant of the need for Clubs to be able to have their own time in the calendar. So I'd propose 8 groups of 4 based on League placings so each group would have a Div 1 team, a Div 2 team, a Div 3 team and a Div 4 team. The Div 4 team would have 3 home games, Div 3 team 2 home games, Div 2 team 1 home game while the Div 1 team played all their games away. The top 2 teams go into the last 16 while the bottom 2 drop into the B championship all on a knockout basis from that point. So each Div 4 team knows it has 3 full championship games and at least one B championship game every year and it will have a good chance against a Div 3 team. A group with Roscommon, Galway, Offaly and Wexford based on this year's League placings would be very competitive where Offaly would fancy their chances against Galway. With a full round of games every two weeks it could be run off in June, July, August with the A & B finals in early September freeing up May and the rest of September for clubs. The U21 Championship could be run on a similar format again giving the so-called weaker counties the opportunity to improve. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 27/05/2016 13:09:02 1859298 Link