Excellent article Fair play joe not afraid to speak the truth...

letterkennyGuy (Donegal) - Posts: 153 - 08/05/2016 17:23:56    1853052

Soma
I think you have not read my post properly
You said it was laughable to say they were organised first-- I think you are wrong. Results prove that Kerry were well organised back from the early 1900's
If you read what I said I took a cut off point --- 1959. Exactly the first year Down won an Ulster title. Kerry by then had 19 All Ireland titles. So that's over half of their total , eg 37 titles. Derry had one Ulster title , Tyrone had two Ulster titles and Donegal at that stage had none nor had they reached an Ulster final. So I think that shows how disorganised the GAA was in Ulster.
Again , quite rightly you say no Ulster county won an All Ireland before partition which in my book once more shows that the GAA was not organised or developed properly in Ulster
Why , in your opinion did it take Derry , Down Tyrone up to 1956 and after to win an Ulster title or Donegal up to 1972 to get their first.
FinnHarps did not enter the LOI up to 1969 and they were backbones by Ex Derry City men plus one or two from Strabane and maybe two or three Donegal men
Again as regards FinnHarps the reason they were successful was because of the Derry men who in turn were victims of the sectarian Six County state. Derry city had to pull out of the Six county league because of the violence and sectarian aggression mounted again Catholics in the Six Counties at the time
Have you ever heard of the ' forgotten county' Well Doegal it is and I can say for sure Donegal suffered more than any other of the 25 counties because of the border I could go on but one thing you probably don't know is in the 50's and60's you had to have a permit crossing the border and I think the boarder posts closed at 10 o clock at night Most of Donegal travelled through Tyrone ( Strabane/ Aughnacloy) so you can imagine the circumstances people had to endure.
But I remember the harsh times I grew up in the 50's and early 60's , remember the ESB coming , walking everywhere so I can tell you Gaelic football would have been on the back burner as we tried to make a living out of poor farmland

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 08/05/2016 20:58:29    1853102

Sam though I often disagree with your posts I generally enjoy them as they are by someone with a love of his own county rather than begrudgery towards another. You ask why did it take Derry & Donegal so long to win a provincial? - well I would say for the same reason as a county like Westmeath didn't win a provincial until 2004, they are never easy won and these counties were not producing teams good enough. Remember that a traditionally strong county like Down have now gone over 20 years without one, and it would be a brave man who would back them to win one in the next 10 years. You seem to think it is inevitable that Donegal will be winning Ulsters every few years now, but that may not be how it plays out. You give good reasons why football was put on the back burner in Donegal for years but that is what separates Kerry from many - the same harsh existence was experienced down there but they would never even consider putting football on the back burner, their love of the game and the county jersey meant it was always and still is a huge part of their lives. Remember even if we exclude the 6 counties and Donegal, there were still 24 other counties fighting Kerry for the All-Ireland each year but they still ended up winning a decent haul most decades. Id imagine Kerry people would be delighted to have some believe the reason for their success is they were organised first, because until counties realise the real reason is hard work and total dedication to the game they will never catch up with them for long.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/05/2016 09:21:24    1853136

Soma
Kerry started winning championships in the early 1900's and kept winning every decade after. So as the saying goes ---- success breeds success
But I remember in Donegal in the 60's and compared to today very few football pitches.
Ballybofey had one , Letterkenny , about 15 miles from Ballybofey had one as did Donegal town around 17 miles away had one Glenties had one and at times I think Ardara, Kilcar and Glencolmcille combined to send out a team
Inishowen which is the size of Co Louth with a population similar to Leitrim was all soccer but in the last 30 years Gaelic has taken off with around 7 or 8 clubs there now.
You mention Down as a traditional strong county , well it's only 57 years since they won their first Ulster so at hat time they were well behind the traditional counties of the previous 50 odd years, likes of Kerry , Dublin Cork Galway Cavan Etc
But from1959 onwards football did begin to get a foothold in counties like Down Derry Tyrone and Donegal and indeed Armagh and in the last 50 odd years all those counties have won Sam and it's fair to say that counties from Ulster have enjoyed great success against Kerry in CP
You could take Cavan as the opposite , before the late 60's they were winning Ulster titles every few years and indeed All IRELANDS yet I think they have won only Ulster title in maybe 45 years
As regards Donegal winning Ulster every so often I don't expect it but I hope they can win a few and don't leave gaps like the one from 1992 to 2011
As I see it we have plenty of talent coming through , lost last year's Ulster final at u21 to eventual All Ireland champions Tyrone by 1 point and drew twice in the North west u21 league this year with eventual u21 AI champions Mayo. Plus have the minor squad of 2014 to represent us at u21 next year
I suppose there were excuses for counties back in the 40's/50 and up to the 60's due to one thing or another but with the facilities and money being pumped into the game the provincial championships of Munster Leinster and Connaught should be more competitive Dublin are way out in front in Leinster and not looking as if they will have much opposition in the near future Kerry again as has been for ages dominating Munster and excluding Cork it's hard to believe that none of the other four counties can't get a team to win at least one Munster title. Mayo are out in front in Connaught and will probably be there for the next few years.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 09/05/2016 10:41:55    1853179

I most definitely wouldn't blame either the troubles or Emigration for Donegals late arrival .

I've read a nice bit about our history .

Most clubs in Donegal did not form until the mid 1920s so we were very late getting organised . Glenties , Killybegs , Ardara - all formed in 1921-1926.

Compare that with Cavan and Monaghan who owned the Anglo Celt .


The fact of the matter is soccer was the big game in the north west .

East and North Donegal are still soccer hot beads .

Sadly we are not a traditional county in the sense of Galway etc but then again - how many years does tradition go back to ?

Does Offaly have a hurling tradition ? They came late .

I don't think we will be winning titles every few years and I would of loved if had 10 Ulster before 1930 but GAA was not a big game up here .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 09/05/2016 10:54:53    1853187

Soccer was a huge game in Donegal because of the Glasgow and UK connections. The GAA in Donegal only kicked off properly in the last 40 odd years. I think that this thread has turned away from Joe Brolly thank god into a sociological study of sport in the border region compared to that in Kerry. Actually, if I were back at college, I would do this as a dissertation as it would be an excellent topic to cover. Any young people reading this thread should go for it, as a lot of the older generation that would be relevant to the subject are on their last legs, and need to be interviewed asap!!

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 09/05/2016 11:45:29    1853210

You ask why did it take Derry & Donegal so long to win a provincial? - well I would say for the same reason as a county like Westmeath didn't win a provincial until 2004, they are never easy won and these counties were not producing teams good enough. Remember that a traditionally strong county like Down have now gone over 20 years without one, and it would be a brave man who would back them to win one in the next 10 years.

I agree they were not producing good enough teams, but deeper analysis of why they weren't, will clearly show an underdeveloped game in those counties. Antrim is a prime example of this in modern day football.

You seem to think it is inevitable that Donegal will be winning Ulsters every few years now, but that may not be how it plays out. You give good reasons why football was put on the back burner in Donegal for years but that is what separates Kerry from many - the same harsh existence was experienced down there but they would never even consider putting football on the back burner, their love of the game and the county jersey meant it was always and still is a huge part of their lives.

I think you miss the point Soma, your county had been winning All Ireland's since the earliest years of the Association. This indicates that Gaelic football became a big deal in Kerry very early on, and that snowballed over the years with a huge interest in the game and thus more people playing the game and huge public interest knocks on to more young people taking the game up. You can't seriously expect to compare that to Counties with very few people playing the game and very few clubs.

Remember even if we exclude the 6 counties and Donegal, there were still 24 other counties fighting Kerry for the All-Ireland each year but they still ended up winning a decent haul most decades. Id imagine Kerry people would be delighted to have some believe the reason for their success is they were organised first, because until counties realise the real reason is hard work and total dedication to the game they will never catch up with them for long.

Soma (UK) - Posts:1406 - 09/05/2016 09:21:24

Stop with the 24 other Counties, that is nonsense, as the majority of counties have only ever had sporadic and limited success in football.

I never doubted that hard work and total dedication to the game was the backbone to Kerry's success, simply noted that very few other counties had the same level of public interest or indeed a well developed game within their county at such an early stage. You had a lot of youngsters watching their County win All Ireland's and win Munster titles, and it encouraged those youngsters to take up the game and thus had the knock on of a stronger club scene and a strong base of players.

My original point stands, and that is Kerry are not blessed with genetically superior or naturally gifted players, they simply develop them and have a good system for doing that. The game became hugely popular in Kerry very early on, and this provided Kerry with a strong club and player base to sustain success for years to come.

Is this really me being anti-Kerry?
Or
Is it me simply speaking the truth and rubbing a few Kerry posters the wrong way in the process?

It's arrogance for Kerry posters to suggest that a lifelong Gael knows nothing of the game, simply because he is from a County that has only 1 Senior All Ireland title. That kind of comment is ridiculous, and shows the blind arrogance that exists amongst some of your fans.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 09/05/2016 13:35:20    1853275

Very good idea Donegalman and as you say the older generation should be asked to give their experience of Sport and the GAA in particular.
From as far back as I can remember Donegal was a very isolated county, people lived in among the mountains miles from anywhere And I'd give the Croaghs , right in the middle of the Bluestacks and situated between Glenties and Glenfin as a good example There were a lot of people living there who would never have played any type of sport. Plus I'd say a lot of men born in Donegal between 1900 and 1950 who ever kicked a ball, who never were engaged in any type of sport. I'd put hat figure at at least fifty per cent.Add in the size of the families back then , any thing from maybe six to 18 or 19 in a family , bad housing , a small two maybe three bedroom cottage and it housing mother / father / grandmother / grandfather and God knows how many children
Plus before the 50's no ESB and very few motor cars. Poverty was rife( as was in Kerry and the rest of Ireland) so you can see why the youth of the place, and with little or no education may I add had to leave
So I would say D o Malley's free education in the 60's plus better social welfare payments helped to bring change and considering Donegal did not lift the Ulster title until 1972 , from that year up to 2015 we have contested 18 Ulster finals winning eight. Consider Cavan's plight over the same period and if you went back to the 40's/50's Cavan would be highly thought of as serious All Ireland contenders and as one of the (again this word) traditionalist GAA counties.
Plus Donegal have won All IRELANDS at Senior , at u21 and finally made it to a minor Final in 2014. So maybe things are not that bleak and we are probably at the least a top six team at present.
But staying there and IMPROVING ON IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF HARD WORK

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 09/05/2016 13:38:41    1853276

Fair point about caaling it as you see it Garymac,but In fairness pat spillane might say the same thing when he's accused of being anti ulster.
I find that Kerry and Dublin suffer more from begrudgery than all the Ulster teams put together, and alot of posts on this thread seem to lump all Kerry fans into the one bubble.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 09/05/2016 13:52:53    1853280

Gary I agree with you totally about this rubbish that the number of All-Irelands a player has determines how informed his opinion is, its even worse on here when posters think they know more about the game because their county has won a few All-Irelands. However here are the 2 parts from your previous post which I thought were nonsense:
Kerry won 20 or more All Ireland's before some current top counties had ever fielded serious teams or won provincials, clearly because Kerry were had a development system in place long before the game ever took off in a big way.
That seems to be a poster trying to discredit All-Irelands because they were won before Donegal & Tyrone became competitive. What other 'top counties' had failed to field serious teams before Kerry won their 20th in 1970? There were some 'top counties' like Wexford, Kildare and Cavan back then who have slipped a lot since (hopefully Kildare and Cavan are well on the way back). But that is sport, for most success is sporadic with Kerry being an anomaly with their consistent success.
Yes Kerry have reverted to defensive football, which was the smart move in fairness. Purist football was tactically ignorant in many ways, and the Buttermen thrived during that era. Since things have started requiring a greater tactical acumen, Kerry have struggled a lot more
And when did football start requiring a greater tactical acumen? Many say the great Down team in the early 60's revolutionised the game, but clearly you don't think it was then? Was it Armagh and Tyrone in 2002? Because Kerry have won 5 All-Irelands since 2002, and were it not for an exceptional Dublin team that might have been 8! If that is Kerry struggling then god help us all.
I have absolutely no link with Kerry at all but I really have no time for those who try to run down the achievements of great players and teams of the past out of nothing but pure begrudgery.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/05/2016 14:14:31    1853289

Fair point about caaling it as you see it Garymac,but In fairness pat spillane might say the same thing when he's accused of being anti ulster.
I find that Kerry and Dublin suffer more from begrudgery than all the Ulster teams put together, and alot of posts on this thread seem to lump all Kerry fans into the one bubble.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts:2357 - 09/05/2016 13:52:53

I have always tried to write "Some Kerry posters", to try and distinguish that I don't believe its all fans.

Pat Spillane like Joe Brolly, sometimes makes very valid points. Sometimes like Joe Brolly, he also makes hurtful and disrespectful comments. Pat sadly is of the belief that "No of All Ireland medals = Knowledge of the Game", something he had eluded to before on the late late show.

I don't hate Kerry football team or people from Kerry, far from it. But I refuse to let such jibberish go unchecked, and that rubs some of the more arrogant posters the wrong way. Any person who suggests a player with more All Ireland titles is smarter or knows more about football than another player with less All Ireland's clearly lacks intelligence.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 09/05/2016 14:24:50    1853295

I know, but when you say "some Kerry posters" its kind of misleading imo, you know as well I do that if Pat Spillane said something along the lines of "some Ulster teams are overly physical" or "some Ulster games are horrible to watch" youd be spitting feathers.
Yes, some kerry fans are arrogant, but so are some Tipp fans, some Kilkenny fans, some dublin fans etc. so why single out kerry fans all the time? And while I agree that great managers/coaches/pundits dont necessarily have to have a bucketload of all irelnad medals, I do feel that someone like brolly has absolutely no place lecturing the likes of colm cooper, kieran donaghy etc in how to play football.
He was never half the player those guys are, so who is he to belittle them (especially the gooch, who Brolly has been slagging off for the last ten years).

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 09/05/2016 14:52:10    1853302

As for Buttermen, that's what you are is it not? Is Butter not your biggest export? Sperrin Metals is our biggest exporter, but I'm probably too modest to call us Men of steel or Ironmen. Pubs like Peadar's, The Dungloe, The Gweedore, Tinneys or the Telstar in Creggan would all get a laugh out of that, as it's less ironic than calling yourselves "The Kingdom", when no significant kingdom ever existed down there.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts:2302 - 08/05/2016 15:09:54 1

Just because Kerrygold has the word Kerry in it doesn't mean it's from there.
Also, we not the US secretary of state. We didn't play for Chelsea and we didn't bear Brian McFadden's children.

It's a bit like calling yourself an assh0le cos of the word derrière.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 09/05/2016 15:52:24    1853321

It's incredible how sensitive and insecure some Kerry posters are. Pretty entertaining though.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 427 - 09/05/2016 16:09:04    1853335

It's incredible how sensitive and insecure some Kerry posters are. Pretty entertaining though.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts:20 - 09/05/2016 16:09:04 1853335

Tis the itch for championship that has us on edge

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 09/05/2016 16:52:10    1853370

I thought Kerry won their 20th All Ireland in 1962 but I'm open to correction if it is not the case.
Again looking at All IRELANDS won before 1960( Downs first) a lot of teams who had win an All Ireland in the previous 50 years have seemed to struggle. Wexford have not won a Leinster for years , Kildare have struggled, Mayo have gone 60 odd years without winning Sam,Roscommon the same while as I said on here before once Down , Tyrone , Armagh , Derry and Donegal started winning the Ulster title Cavan went backwards -- I would say they have won two Ulster titles in about 45 years and that is from a team who dominated Ulster football in the 30's 40's and50's
You also state Soma that Kerry would have a lot more All IRELANDS lately but because of this Dublin team -- they would also have a lot more if it were not for Armagh in 2002, Tyrone in2003, again Tyrone in 2005 , again in 2008, Down in 2010 and Donegal in 2012
I'm not trying to discredit Kerry nor do I begrudge Kerry any of their All IRELANDS and to be honest they way things are today , better coaching , good facilities , no problem with transport (comparing to the 40's50's and early 60's) good training grounds I'd expect better in Munster where a few counties should be able to field teams to make a proper Munster football championship and put it up to Kerry.
Since 1960 5 Ulster counties have won Sam , One Connaught county has won Sam , 3 Leinster counties have won Sam while two in Munster have won Sam with Kerry winning the majority.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 09/05/2016 17:54:20    1853391

You are right Sam, Kerry did win their 20th in 1962, though I still don't know what 'top counties' other than Tyrone or Donegal had not fielded a 'serious' side before that. Indeed you could argue that Mayo, another current 'top county' had fielded all their best teams by then as they had won all their All-Irelands by then. You seem to think that how things are now is how they will always be with Donegal and Tyrone always among the elite but that's not how sport works. Counties like Cavan, Offaly, Louth etc have been among the best for a time but are now struggling to various degrees, in 30 years time it may be the same for Donegal and Tyrone. I hope not but who knows. Armagh were a force in the early 00's but have largely slipped off the scene again, just because they were only there a short while doesn't mean football was weaker in the early 00s. Do you think Anthony Molloys achievement in 1992 was not as great as Michael Murphys in 2012 because some counties were not as organised back then? It just seems incredibly arrogant to say any titles won by any county pre-1962 were not as big an achievement as those won today because Tyrone and Donegal were unorganised/focused on soccer/whatever the case may be.
And yes Armagh and Tyrone denied Kerry more All-Irelands in the 00's, just like Cavan and Down did in the past. However I would say Kerry were along way off in both 2010 and 2012 and would have been eventually beaten anyway if not by their Ulster opponents.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 09/05/2016 19:17:34    1853406

Ever since we won our first All Ireland in 1901
KY4SAM2015 (Kerry) - Posts:399 - 08/05/2016 13:52:55

Your piece is persuasive, but starting it with this glaring error rather undermines the rest!

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 09/05/2016 19:59:02    1853422

Soma - I don't think anyone is taking away from Kerry's early titles ( I'm not anyway )

I think the point being made is counties like ours were lagging way behind the rest up until the 60s .

I don't think we will always be at the top table - I wish we were but it won't happen .

On another note - Kerry's achievements are remarkable and good luck to them . They are the aristocrats and yes through hard work etc .

Would kerry have the most ulster titles if they played up here ? I think they defo would but I think in the past 20 years they would struggle up here . That's just my opinion .

I think Gaelic Football is growing up here but our history probably means we will only compete every 20 or so years .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 09/05/2016 20:26:43    1853429

Some, let's get this right, it's either I am caroming across the wrong way to you or you are taking me up wrong
I have not said that titles won pre 1962 were not as big achievements as those won today, you are after saying that To clear things up a bit what I'm saying is because Donegal Derry Tyrone and Down took at least 70 years( Tyrone1956)and in Donegal's case almost 90 years to win a provincial title after the founding of the GAA then obvious the GAA was not organised or developed properly in those counties. And I picked Ulster teams as I would have more knowledge about them and would have a bigger interest in the Ulster championship.
Now let's get this straight and all--I have nothing against any of the other provinces.
And I don't think that Donegal or Tyrone will always be among the Elite. Any Donegal person who attended the 2013 Ulster final will tell you how quick things can change. So I take nothing for granted.
As regards the Donegal winning team of 1992 and again in 2012 both were fantastic days for Donegal people And IMO the 1992 team should have won another All Ireland.
Let's not forget how strong Ulster Football was then-- Down A I champs in 1991, Donegal in 1992, Derry in 1993 Down again in 1994 and unlucky Tyrone in 1995
Also I can tell you about the first serious team Donegal had 1963-1967 beaten in two Ulster finals by Down and just by two points in 1967 with Down going on to win Sam in 1968
That was the Donegal team who were awarded a penalty v Galway in the league semi final of 1967(I think that was the year) Neilly Gallagher went to take the kick, the wind blew the ball off the spot, in turn N Gallagher replaced the ball on the spot and was deemed to have fouled the ball by the ref and Galway got a free out. And they talk about bad reffing today.
I rember well listing to the radio after the game and Bernard Brady (RIP) the Donegal full back( and what a full back he was) slating the GAA and saying how Ulster teams got nothing when they went to Croke park.
Does anyone else on here remember that penalty incident. ???

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 09/05/2016 20:34:13    1853431