You could do that Marlon but then you will have complaints about the 2 teams dropping into the Christy Ring haven had 3 tough games to prepare while the rest of the Ring teams sit idle and how unfair this is for the teams who have gone cold. Essentially no matter what system you try people will complain - human nature means its much easier to blame the system than look at a teams own failings.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/04/2016 21:50:14    1844482

I would not agree with that Marlon. What's the point in winning the Ring and being promoted to the Qualifier group if it will have you back in the Ring the following year?

The only subtle change I would make is to allow the 3rd and 4th placed teams from the group into the qualifiers. I would also suggest allowing the Christy Ring finalists into the qualifiers. The first round qualifier can simple be: the 4 provincial quarter-final losers drawn against the 4 teams: 3rd placed in the group, 4th placed in the group, Ring winner and Ring runner-up.

This will retain the current structures as they are. The quarter-final losers have free weekends while the semi-finals are being played so there is plenty of time in the schedule for it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 11/04/2016 21:53:19    1844485

Have to agree with legendrix on this one. All four teams should be
allowed in the qualifiers.

Dont think the teams would want to play in the Christy ring if they
were knocked out plus its unfair on the teams playing in it.

Just reading the thread and a lot of posters are writing off Carlow
in the group. I think we can beat any of the other teams

But we shall see !!

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 12/04/2016 11:20:40    1844579

legendzxix (Kerry)
I would not agree with that Marlon. What's the point in winning the Ring and being promoted to the Qualifier group if it will have you back in the Ring the following year?

Well, only if they were in the bottom 2. But you could just easily say what's the point of the 4 team qualifier group, if the bottom placed team still progresses in the AI championship?

The counter to the above argument, is that the qualifier group is for teams too good for the Christy RIng, but below still possibly below 'standard' Liam McCarthy level. I'm starting to cool on that premise, but I do see the merit in it. But if that is the premise, then a team that finished bottom of that group, is not at the standard required to continue in the AI series. But they will at least have gotten a shot at it, by being part of the qualifier group. They get 2 games, 3 shots. If they're not at the required level, then they don't proceed in the AI competition. At least if they were added to the Christy Ring, they're summer would not be over, and it would strengthen the Christy Ring cup, which did get a bit diluted by the creation of the qualifier group. That's not meant to be a put-down of current Ring teams, but if people are being honest, its a fair statement I think.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 12/04/2016 17:14:58    1844850

Medwayirish, Kerry won a hurling All Ireland I think in 1896 so there is a tradition there going back a long way. They are as passionate about their hurling in that little part of north Kerry as they are in any hurling county. I don't think the rest of Kerry should be given any plaudits for promoting the game of hurling. It is total football dominance throughout the rest of the county to the same extent that hurling dominates in the smaller county of Kilkenny.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1904 - 13/04/2016 11:33:33    1845045

Medwayirish, Kerry won a hurling All Ireland I think in 1896 so there is a tradition there going back a long way. They are as passionate about their hurling in that little part of north Kerry as they are in any hurling county. I don't think the rest of Kerry should be given any plaudits for promoting the game of hurling. It is total football dominance throughout the rest of the county to the same extent that hurling dominates in the smaller county of Kilkenny

hurling is played and has been played in kenmare and kilgarvan in the south of the county for ever aswell, parnells in Tralee have been doing great work in the last few years and also the crokes in Killarney bit harsh to compare us to Kilkenny while football is dominant Kerry co board give far more than lip service to hurling and have done for a while we are benefiting from that now

coopersleftfoot (Kerry) - Posts: 91 - 13/04/2016 11:39:43    1845052

FFS why don't they just introduce senior, intermediate and junior championships comprising the top 8 teams in senior then 9 to 16th and so the remainder in to the Junior

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 13/04/2016 11:41:25    1845054

FFS why don't they just introduce senior, intermediate and junior championships comprising the top 8 teams in senior then 9 to 16th and so the remainder in to the Junior

Because then you can't have the Elite counties winning titles at Senior, Intermediate and Junior bumper - can't have that.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 13/04/2016 13:55:10    1845163

PoolSturgeon

To be fair the Kerry CB have always funded the Kerry hurling team properly and as you can imagine it's the Kerry football team and club football that generates the vast majority of its revenue so the whole county has played its part in some way, because Kerry hurling certainly hasnt got a cent of funding from GAA HQ in any shape or form whatsoever.

A big reason why hurling developed in Kerry was due to the very good land in the area where hurling is KIng, also when Kerry won the 1891 All Ireland title the players who played quit soon after as they were disillusioned at having to pay their own to get to games and training (which was obviously extremely in those days) which prevented any momentum for the game to grow.

Indeed Football in Kerry was in a shambolic state and only really got going at the start of the 20th century so it was certainly possible and feasible that Kerry could have been a predominantly hurling county but alas not to be

KYTitletown (Kerry) - Posts: 816 - 13/04/2016 19:30:36    1845370

Marlon_JD

But you could just easily say what's the point of the 4 team qualifier group, if the bottom placed team still progresses in the AI championship?

It is a provincial qualifier group. The top 2 are advancing to the provincial championship and an opportunity to earn seeded status if they win their quarter-final.

There are free weekends while the provincial semi-finals are being played. I am suggesting something that can be intergrated to the current structures and timescales that are in place.

I take your point on the qualifier group being an intermediate level between McCarthy and Ring. At the same time these structures can be reviewed. There is a natural evolution of format as well. The qualifier group being put in place was a start. The question I am asking is can this be brought on another step.

In my own humble opinion if they brought in a qualifying round featuring the 4 provincial losers drawn against the the next 4 in the championship pecking order, I think they would have a decent championship in place.

The team being relegated from the group is losing the guarantee of a qualifier spot in the following year as only Ring finalists would earn it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 13/04/2016 20:23:03    1845385

legendzxix (Kerry)
In my own humble opinion if they brought in a qualifying round featuring the 4 provincial losers drawn against the the next 4 in the championship pecking order, I think they would have a decent championship in place.

Do you mean in a knockout round, or in 2 round robin groups? Also, in any one year, the 4 beaten provincial quarter-finalists could feature Tipperary, Galway, or even Kilkenny (could happen), its going to be top tier teams regardless. If your including the beaten Ring finalists in that round, that's quite a jump in levels.

I do think alot can be done better with the AI qualifiers, they don't make alot of sense right now. And the qualifiers could perhaps accommodate more teams than they currently do. I did like when the qualifiers were played off in round robin groups (2005 to 2007), I thought that idea was abandoned too soon.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 13/04/2016 21:06:49    1845396

strange, all posters about leinster hurling, 22 post all from posters outside leinster and only 9 from leinster counties. not saying they don't have opinion but

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 14/04/2016 09:49:38    1845418

strange, all posters about leinster hurling, 22 post all from posters outside leinster and only 9 from leinster counties. not saying they don't have opinion but

well for the purposes of this year Kerry are from leinster!

coopersleftfoot (Kerry) - Posts: 91 - 14/04/2016 10:59:08    1845435

yes trying to make things fairer???, have 9 teams in one group(leinster) and only five in another(munster)
that is in hurling, the funny thing is that laois, offaly , westmeath could easily be replace by antrim, down or derry in next couple of years.

Will we have a suitation where over half team are not from leinster in 3 or four years time?

while in football we have 4 groups
6 teams in one (Munster), 7 in another (connaght) 9 in another (Ulster) and 11 in Another (Leinster)

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 14/04/2016 11:27:41    1845447

I think it is fairer what would be the point in Kerry playing one of the other munster teams and getting destroyed? or galway playing themselves the leinster champ is that in name only hurling imo has got it right football has not as regards provincial set ups. the leinster qualifier group gives teams a chance to play competitive hurling against comparable sides and then if they are good enough test themselves against the big boys I don't see any better alternative?

coopersleftfoot (Kerry) - Posts: 91 - 14/04/2016 11:46:44    1845460

it is great to see all kerry hurlers posters so concern about fairness, pity footballers are not so concerned when only 1 match v cork to munster where in ulster could have 3 to get to get to final

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 14/04/2016 16:28:03    1845635

it is great to see all kerry hurlers posters so concern about fairness, pity footballers are not so concerned when only 1 match v cork to munster where in ulster could have 3 to get to get to final

I don't think the football fair that was my point the system in hurling is way fairer the football is a joke we all acknowledge that, personally id love if there was a different system but its the ulster council that really doesn't want the system to change. there is nothing we in Kerry can do to change it

coopersleftfoot (Kerry) - Posts: 91 - 14/04/2016 16:36:20    1845641

coopersleftfoot (Kerry)
I think it is fairer what would be the point in Kerry playing one of the other munster teams and getting destroyed?

Whats the difference between getting destroyed in a Leinster QF against Galway, Kilkenny, or Dublin, and getting destroyed in a Munster QF against Tipp, Waterford, or Clare? The provincial qualifer group; good idea, it definitely has merit. But if you come out of that, you should go into your province, if you have one in the AI series. Kerry do.
And in fairness, a team is either in the top tier, or their not. You can't be afraid of getting destroyed. I'd like to know what the Kerry players themselves think, maybe they'd love a run in the Munster championship.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 14/04/2016 19:19:13    1845743

Do you mean in a knockout round, or in 2 round robin groups? Also, in any one year, the 4 beaten provincial quarter-finalists could feature Tipperary, Galway, or even Kilkenny (could happen), its going to be top tier teams regardless. If your including the beaten Ring finalists in that round, that's quite a jump in levels.
Marlon_JD

Yes, I mean a knockout round. I have no doubt that the first round could contain any of the teams that you have listed. Teams finishing 3rd and 4th currently exit the championship in May. While it could be a tough qualifier, I think these two teams along with the Ring finalists would benefit from the extra game. Teams cannot be ring-fenced indefinitely. Antrim are arguing that the Ring champions should be allowed into a Leinster quarter-final. I don't agree with that. I think a balanced compromise would be the Ring finalists entering a first round qualifier knock-out round.

An example using last years championship seeding losing provincial quarter-finalists.
Qualifier Round 1:
Dublin - Carlow
Offaly - Antrim
Westmeath - Kerry
Clare - Derry

Qualifier Round 2:
Losing provincial semi-finalists and Round 1 winners:
Clare - Offaly
Laois - Dublin
Wexford - Cork
Westmeath - Limerick

Whats the difference between getting destroyed in a Leinster QF against Galway, Kilkenny, or Dublin, and getting destroyed in a Munster QF against Tipp, Waterford, or Clare? The provincial qualifer group; good idea, it definitely has merit. But if you come out of that, you should go into your province, if you have one in the AI series. Kerry do.
And in fairness, a team is either in the top tier, or their not. You can't be afraid of getting destroyed. I'd like to know what the Kerry players themselves think, maybe they'd love a run in the Munster championship.
Marlon_JD

I expected Kerry to enter a Munster quarter-final if they finished in the top 2 of the qualifier group. A decision was made that Kerry will have to enter Leinster. We'll have to see how it goes first before any changes are made. Kerry could easily be going back to the Ring championship. If Kerry ever happen to win a Leinster quarter-final, it would be the time to review whether a change is required. It wouldn't be right for Kerry to have a seeded status in Leinster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 14/04/2016 19:50:28    1845753

I would agree with the statement that Kerry if they win the qualifiers should go into munster but that would mean the team that came second would go into leinster proper and woud create an extra unplanned for game in munster, the difference in getting hammered by galway Dublin etc is at least we would've had a few games against Westmeath laois etc the championship wouldn't be over before it starts. personally I think this system is way better that the alternative the introduction of antrim and especially galway into the leinster champ has been great the system b4 was a farce antrim and galway in the semis/quarters every year automatically joke!

coopersleftfoot (Kerry) - Posts: 91 - 15/04/2016 10:47:44    1845867