8 teams will not work and here is why.

Let's say in 2017 you had a division 1 of 8 teams: Cork, Kilkenny, Galway, Tipp, Clare, Limerick, Waterford and Dublin. And a division 2 of Wexford, Offaly, Laois, Kerry, Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim and London. They would be two good leagues with 7 good games for all teams.

What happens in 2018? You end up with a division 1 of, for example: Kilkenny, Galway, Tipp, Clare, Waterford, Dublin, Offaly and Wexford. And a division 2 of Cork, Limerick, Laois, Kerry, Carlow, Westmeath, Kildare and Derry. It would be crazy. Every one of the division 1 teams would beat Offaly and would hammer Wexford (going on this season's league). And in division 2, Cork and Limerick would HAMMER everyone. It'd be ridiculous.

Maybe leagues of 7 would be best. 2 promoted and 2 relegated each year. No stupid playoffs for relegation unless teams are level on points.

8 team leagues means there would be one good year followed by one terrible year. It can't happen.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 02/04/2016 14:05:04    1840504

@ ZUL10 - Tipperary v Clare is the only big game. In recent years there has never been much appetite from those remaining in 1B, especially the runner-up of the division.

@ icehonesty - If the current groups of 6 are to remain, I think they should make some changes to it.

They could implement two rounds where 1A teams take on 1B teams. It could be based on the top 2, middle 2 and bottom 2 from the league places of the year before taking on each other within those groups. Teams would then have 7 regular league games altogether.

The top 2 in 1A could go straight into the final. The bottom team from 1A should be automatically relegated. The top 2 in 1B should go straight into a final with the winner promoted. The bottom team from 1B should be automatically relegated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 14:52:40    1840522

Legendz,

Dublin V Limerick is also a big game for both teams, in my opinion.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 02/04/2016 15:51:35    1840536

Are you saying Dublin v Limerick league and Waterford v Wexford for semi final spots are not big games? They certainly are big for them and in no way meaningless games. That is my point

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 02/04/2016 15:56:06    1840537

Limerick have been indifferent about the quarter-finals in recent years. It is a good game for Wexford to have but I'm not sure they deserve to be there. Technically Wexford were the 9th placed team from the league phase. This is my point. Within the system I would understand the top 2 from 1B taking on 3rd and 4th from 1A with the top 2 from 1A straight into the semi-finals.

If the groups of 6 has to remain, I think there needs to be a discussion around fairness and a reasonable reward for league progress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 16:38:38    1840547

To Keeper7 - 'mixed quality' 5 games in own group has been tried - I'm saying 6 games against the OTHER group.

To Legendz - I'd prefer 1 KO rd for promo/rela playoffs - 2nd top v 2nd bottom and 3rd top v 3rd bottom etc.

What's wrong with 6 1A v 6 1B - or for 8 games, try 4 1A v 4 1B; 4 1B v 4 1C; 4 1C v 4 1A. Or, 6 match/10 teams, try 3 1A and 3 1C v 4 1B, and the 3s complete 2-match round robins.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2632 - 02/04/2016 17:19:46    1840559

Omahant.

The top teams have to be playing each other in the regular league phase. As always I'm only ever looking for subtle changes.

I am in favour of the traditional divisions of 8. I have no time for the latest nonsense of quarter-finals and all that.

If there is a feeling the divisions of 6 do offer a better balance, a solution needs to be found for the 6th game that teams require. Putting in the relegation play-offs as they are for that 6th game is wrong. Teams at the bottom of their division should be relegated. Those winning their league should be promoted.

With the 6 team groups providing 5 games, I think all teams just require two more games. My simple suggestion is for two rounds of games between 1A and 1B teams.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 18:14:21    1840568

All I'm saying is that all the discussion of 8 team divisions is stupid. It would work so long as there was no promotion or relegation, and that would be equally silly. 8 team divisions would work in year 1 and then fall apart after.

What should the structure be? Depends. How many games should there be per team? Should it be a league? Or a league and playoff mix?

If it was me, I'd probably go for 7 team divisions. 2 up, 2 down. The team top of division 1 is the winner. No playoffs, no finals. Bottom 2 of each division are relegated automatically. Top 2 of each division are promoted automatically. Points difference to separate teams on equal points (not the head-to-head farce we currently have). A proper league in other words.

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 02/04/2016 18:30:43    1840570

icehonesty - I don't think it is stupid. I was well aware that Offaly and Wexford would be in Division 1 in year 2. In my humble opinion teams should get on with it. However if Offaly and Wexford are at a level that it is beyond them, well then divisions of 8 is a non-runner.

I'm in favour of no final but Allianz will want a final. They have been great sponsors and I have no problem with that.

Divisions of 7 is an option but is it much better than 6 or 8? Teams will have 1 weekend without a game.

I think within the current setup, what I have suggested about 2 games between 1A and 1B teams is a fair enough shout.

Next year you would have:
Kilkenny and Wexford taking on Galway/Cork and Limerick.
Dublin and Tipperary taking on Wexford and Offaly.
Clare and Galway/Cork taking on Kerry and Laois/Westmeath.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 18:47:29    1840574

The groups of 6 have worked well in many of the tiers, especially in 1a (its so close, Kilkenny were in a relegation playoff last year, which they won by a point!). 2A and 2B have been interesting as well, 2A is really tough. Unfortunately, 1b is the one tier where you know what the top 2 will be, before a ball has been pucked. Now, I say this as someone who's favourite hurling counties, outside Tipp, are Wexford and Limerick (if you like seeing packed stadiums, you'd want these teams to do well). And Wexford did get screwed over when the tiers were changed from 8 to 6 teams tiers, no question. Limerick have been unlucky not to get promoted. But in the 5 league's since then, neither Wexford or Offaly have finished in the top 2 of 1b, or finished with more than 6 points. And this year was the worst.

I think that makes returning to groups of 8 more problematic. That said, does the quarter-final situation compound the lack of competitiveness in 1b? I think it might. Having the winner of 1b go onto league knockout stages (that should be an oxymoron) makes sense. But all of 1b bar the bottom 2 going to quarter-finals? That doesn't make sense. You want to give teams as many big games as possible, but you have to retain some sense of actual competition, i.e. the teams who perform the best, get rewarded.
Galway are in a relegation play-off, after beating Cork, drawing with Tipp and Waterford, and losing narrowly to Kilkenny. Offaly are in a quarter-final after getting beaten by Kerry. Wexford are in a quarter-final after being beaten by Offaly, Limerick, and Clare, and squeezing past Laois. Does the fact that you can have a poor league in 1b, finish 4th and STILL progress in the league, versus playing well in 1a, but ending up in a relegation battle instead of a qf, does that bleed 1b matches of real competition?

Might be best to keep the current structure, get rid of the quarter-finals, and have automatic promotion and relegation, no more play-offs.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/04/2016 19:36:26    1840586

Marlon_JD

Is a 5 match season then enough? The league is generating decent revenue under the current structure. I agree with most of what you have had to say. The only solution I could find to some problem was the addition of two rounds of games between 1A and 1B. These could be the opening two rounds of the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 19:58:58    1840595

legendzxix (Kerry)
Is a 5 match season then enough? The league is generating decent revenue under the current structure. I agree with most of what you have had to say. The only solution I could find to some problem was the addition of two rounds of games between 1A and 1B. These could be the opening two rounds of the league.

Very fair point, and the main counter argument I would see for a 7 or 8 tier league structure. It is a tough one, I enjoy the competitive games a 6 tier structure gives us. But I think the quarter finals and relegation/promotion matches undermine that competition. BUT, I have to recognize that drawback, that there aren't enough organically competitive games in a six team league. In fact, you can't really call the existing 6 team tiers actual league divisions.
Given the option of the current format, with quarter-finals and relegation/promotion play-offs, and an 8 teams divisional structure, I probably would prefer the 8 teams division structure. But I still think a 6 team structure, without the quarter-finals/relegation games, would be more competitive.

I'll say this, and this isn't a dig at any county, but what I would see as the issue affecting the adoption good hurling structures. When it comes to voting for new league/championship structures, the only way we'll get anywhere is if EVERY county votes for whats best for their own hurlers. I feel that currently, any time a new structure is voted on, the delegates from the top hurling counties vote for the best hurling structure for their own county hurlers, and the delegates from most other counties vote for the hurling structure that best suits their footballers. i.e. they are either ambivalent to their own hurlers, or favor something that will get the hurling out of the way so they can concentrate on their footballers. Once we start voting on competition structures that work for Tyrone as much as Tipperary hurlers, we'll get something workable.

I gotta get more terse in my posts, but one last thing. Tyrone finished 3a with 2 wins, 4 points above Warwickshire. Yet, apparently, they are now in a relegation/promotion playoff with the 3b winners, without even having a relegation playoff against Warwickshire. Myself and keeper7 discussed it on another thread, neither of us could figure it out, but reckoned they must be reducing the number of teams in 3A to 5. I can't find anything about it online. Who is speaking up for teams in 3A, who is speaking up for Tyrone hurlers, who appear to be getting royally screwed? Who agreed to this? Hurlers like Damien Casey deserve better. These are the problems we need to sort out first, I think.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/04/2016 20:33:06    1840608

It's a matter of opinion. Some will agree. Some will disagree. In my own humble opinion, two opening round of league games between 1A and 1B teams could be a compromise solution. It isn't entirely ideal but it could be the best fit. This way the 6 team league structure remains in place. The bottom team from 1A can be automatically relegated after 7 games. The same can go for 1B.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 02/04/2016 21:08:37    1840624

1) There should be automatic promotion from 2A to 1B.
2) If a team loses all their games, they shouldn't get to play a playoff game with the second last team.

Tyrone finished 3a with 2 wins, 4 points above Warwickshire. Yet, apparently, they are now in a relegation/promotion playoff with the 3b winners, without even having a relegation playoff against Warwickshire. Myself and keeper7 discussed it on another thread, neither of us could figure it out, but reckoned they must be reducing the number of teams in 3A to 5. I can't find anything about it online.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts:1377 - 02/04/2016 20:33:06 1840608

Yep. Div 3A is being reduced to 5 teams, and Div 3B is being increased to 5 teams.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1045 - 03/04/2016 15:31:57    1840824

Clare and Limerick and even Wexford showed they would be a match for the 1A teams. Eight team div 1 the way to go if HQ want to promote hurling. Seven good games for each team. If the argument is that a six team Divisions is more competitive and entertaining, then the same argument could be said about football but don't see the GAA rushing to reduce the football leagues.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 03/04/2016 19:29:53    1841069

What I would do given the power within the GAA is as follows lads:

Division 1A: 6 teams - 7 games (2 rounds against 1B opponents.) - Top 2 into Division 1A league final. Bottom team relegated.
Division 1B: 6 teams - 7 games (2 rounds against 1A opponents.) - Top 2 into Division 1B final. Winner promoted. Bottom team relegated.
Division 2: 8 teams - 7 games - Top 2 into Division 2 final. Winner promoted. Bottom team relegated.
Division 3: 8 teams - 7 games - Top 2 into Division 3 final. Winner promoted. Bottom team relegated.
Division 4: 6 teams - 5 games - Top 2 into Division 4 final. Winner promoted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 03/04/2016 19:49:16    1841088

Have a proper league!!! And really promote this great game, there is more countries playing hurling than 6. Stop this elitist rubbish and have a 10 team league. No more pre season Walsh cup.
my own county and the once great team like offally need the top teams in wexford park or birr, how else can they show case the game to the youth of the county. Allow kerry hurlers a taste of the big games . How else can these teams improve standards? Look at Antrim, and Wexford lucky not to be in division 3 next year with them, if that happened you could say goodbye to the game in Wexford.
Top four in semi finals and bottom 2 regulated.
same in division 2 and 3.
Would football controlled gaa, allow this???? Don't thick so,!! They happy with top 6 elitist countys and game as exhibition sport in rest.

tonydoranfan (Wexford) - Posts: 550 - 03/04/2016 21:09:00    1841209

I agree with tonydoranfan (Wexford) . Ten team league and cut out the pre-season competitions. Time for a proper league. I'd get rid of league finals. First past the post.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 04/04/2016 10:27:40    1841355

"Div 3A is being reduced to 5 teams, and Div 3B is being increased to 5 teams."

Probably a good move but it's the first mention of it I've seen...

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 04/04/2016 11:25:03    1841426

7 regular league games has traditionally been enough. The January matches are ok for fringe players in those pre-season competitions.

If divisions of 8 are not an option, I can see why they have settled on the divisions of 6. It is difficult to get an ideal format with less teams in each division.

Galway should never have been in a relegation final this weekend. The same goes for Kerry. As has been mentioned many a time, it is wrong for 2A champions not to be automatically promoted.

If there were 2 rounds of matches between 1A and 1B teams, 1B teams would gain the benefit of 2 games against tougher opponents. 1A teams would gain that bit more flexibility to try out more players. It is important the league is competitive. The has to be a small bit of leeway for a bit of experimentation as well.

It would work as follows for the first two rounds of next years league:
Kilkenny v Galway
Waterford v Limerick
Dublin v Wexford
Tipperary v Offaly
Cork v Kerry
Clare v Laois

Galway v Waterford
Limerick v Kilkenny
Wexford v Tipperary
Offaly v Dublin
Kerry v Clare
Laois v Cork

The remaining 5 rounds then would be within the divisions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7888 - 04/04/2016 21:15:36    1841834