I dont believe in scraping the provincial competitions, as it is good for some excitement early in the competition. But unfortunately this has not been the case in the past number of seasons. Connaught has turned into a borefest. Mayo will not get a good game until they get to the semis. Likewise ulster has turned into a very predictable competition, given the last 3 seasons anyhow. Leinster is never going to be the same again, and munster never offered anything, unless cork and kerry drew each other in a semi, or met in the final.

I would propose rotating teams out of leinster into munster, and out of ulster and into connaught.

Every year, one ulster team in their turn would do this.
Every year, 2 leinster teams in their turn would also do this.

What would result would be better games in the earlier stages of the competition
A more even distribution of counties and games per province
A chance every 6th season in leinster for a lesser team to win leinster, or realistically compete in a final.

I would see this as being good for attendances too. Meath v Cork/kerry would bring a very interested support base from up the country, as would kildare. The dubs on the road to either cork or killarney would also prove a massive boost for the competition and get the dublin supporters interested in the competition again, at the early stages. Any of the ulster teams would love a run at mayo, galway or roscommon for a change. It might relieve some of the claustrophobia up here too.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 14/01/2016 13:26:36    1816589

I think it's time to change from Provincials to regions,Ask each county would they like to be considered as being moved - Longford,Westmeath,Offaly,Cavan,Louth,Laois,Kilkenny and Wexford could all be approached,Plus the provincial councils could be asked to draw up what the new regions will encompass.

With 8 in each it could stream line not just inter county but club,colleges etc.

North,South,East and West provinces

lasertech (UK) - Posts: 129 - 14/01/2016 14:31:48    1816614

Streamlining provinces to 8 shouldn't happen. Who wants to win a rotating division of 8 teams. Keep the provinces. Ban replays from provincial cups and use them to seed a league based all Ireland competition and also have an old school old Ireland cup based on just provincial champions

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 15/01/2016 18:32:11    1816941

Rotation would be an interesting concept, with only 3 teams per year switching, and rivalries between Uls/Conn and Lein/Muns can grow.
After all, Mexico has become a permanent participant in the 'Copa America', and there have been quite a few one-off guest teams.
1) How about upping the team numbers by one, so that the small prov teams play in the other as well - Lein 3/Muns 1 and Uls 2/Conn1.
2) Use the 'Carlow Plan' for the AI Series - 8 Prov Finalists to Rd 3 (AI Last 16); 8 SFlists to Rd 2; and 16 QFlists to Rd 1; and
3) Put all counties from a 'pair of provs' (based on prov AI SF rotation) in the same half of the draw ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 15/01/2016 19:29:10    1816950

There should not be rotation of teams from provinces.

A Leinster championship without Leinster is not the Leinster championship.

The Copa America analogy is bad. Mexico still play in the Concacaf Gold Cup. A better analogy for this instance would be if teams were rotated out of the Copa America. You'd have a Copa America without Brazil and Argentina in my opinion that's just stupid.

The rotation idea balances the numbers a little better but I don't really see that as the big problem with the current system. You can come up with ideas to make the All Ireland series more fair without touching the make up of the provinces.

You don't need Dublin to be playing Cork or Kerry in the Munster championship. Those games already happen, it's called the All Ireland series.

Provincial boundaries are fairly arbitrary but they've gained meaning and prestige due through tradition. I don't really like the provincial championships but if you keep a championship based around them then their make-up has to remain the same.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 16/01/2016 08:59:17    1816979

More games in the provinces. Munster / Connaught one group of five (Four games). Ulster 2 Groups (winners to meet). Leinster four groups etc. All the provincial winners into the quarter-finals while the rest enter an open draw All-Ireland series to produce 4 teams for the quarter -finals.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 16/01/2016 11:57:08    1816994

A Leinster championship without Leinster is not the Leinster championship.

Yes it is, just with 2 less teams in it, in their turn, every 6 years.

The Copa America analogy is bad. Mexico still play in the Concacaf Gold Cup. A better analogy for this instance would be if teams were rotated out of the Copa America. You'd have a Copa America without Brazil and Argentina in my opinion that's just stupid.


Or the Copa America is the all ireland series, where every county still remains playing in.

The rotation idea balances the numbers a little better but I don't really see that as the big problem with the current system. You can come up with ideas to make the All Ireland series more fair without touching the make up of the provinces.

You could go down the road of group stages, but it is likely to be very poorly attended, especially if there are nothing to play for ties involved.

You don't need Dublin to be playing Cork or Kerry in the Munster championship. Those games already happen, it's called the All Ireland series.

What would be wrong with them meeting twice a year, and it would be every 6 years, as they would be still in leinster for the remaining 5. There would be a huge novelty in this for everyone, and it would open the door for a smaller team to win leinster without the dubs.

Provincial boundaries are fairly arbitrary but they've gained meaning and prestige due through tradition. I don't really like the provincial championships but if you keep a championship based around them then their make-up has to remain the same.

They no longer have much or any meaning. Leinster is a terrible competition. Connaught is also a very one sided affair. Munster is good for one game only.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 16/01/2016 12:15:21    1816996

I meant to say a Leinster championship is not a Leinster championship when Dublin aren't in it.

If Meath were to win Leinster in a year when Dublin were not in the competition then you'd have to put an asterisk around that victory.

I disagree with your assertion that the provincial championships have lost all meaning (I also struggle to see how adding and removing teams increased the meaning of these competitions). Ulster is a very good competition. Leinster is dominated at the minute by Dublin, but only because this particular Dublin side are particularly good historically and Meath are at a low ebb. You had Westmeath get to the final last year after shocking Meath. Louth nearly won the competition in 2010 so I don't think things are all that bad.

In Connacht Mayo have been dominant but I think in future that should change. Galway has too much of a tradition to remain on the doldrums for much longer and Roscommon have made great strides over the last few years at underage levels and are in division 1 next year, so I think things are looking up for the west.

With regards to Munster, nothing is new there in that Cork and Kerry are the 2 dominant teams. Tipp are improving though, they got to the u21 final last year. It wouldn't be surprised if they caused a shock by beating one of the big 2 in the next few years.

I agree with you that the provincials are a good way of getting interest in the early stages of the championship, it is my opinion that materially changing the teams competing in the provinces would detract from their meaning.

I can't prove this point, but I think if there was a vote on this topic I'd be very confident that the consensus would be on my side.

I do agree that things need to be done in the GAA to improve their competitions. I think the championship should be more league based. Failing that I think we could improve the National League.

I think we could move to a 3 tier system in that.

Division 1 of 2 groups of 6, top 3 and bottom 3 seperating after these round of games, much like the format the hurling used recently. Division 2 and 3 made up of 10 teams.

More teams get exposure to division 1 league standard. 9 rounds are already accommodated in the current league system. A 3 up 3 down promotion system keeps teams having something to play for.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 17/01/2016 12:31:05    1817108

I think today proves that all the GAA need to do is not have any games in croke park until Leinster final. And tough on those with season tickets etc , I have one just to clarify, fact is dubs would not be so dominant if they only got into hq by reaching a Leinster final.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 17/01/2016 15:39:13    1817123

To Donegalman -
To address the prov imbalance, while keeping them unchanged - would the following modest tweaks solve the problem ? -
Add 4 Prov Final losers to existing Qual Rd 2 (Open Draw); and 2 new Prov Champs Rd losers to 12-team Seeded Rd 3.
2 unbeaten Prov Champs and 6 Rd 3 winners to AI QFs.
OR, as I prefer, 8 Qual Rd 1 losers (3rd chance) host 8 Prov SF losers in new Qual Rd 1B (or Open Draw).
4 Prov Final losers join 16 Rd 1 and 1B winners in Open Draw Rd 2; 2 Champs Rd losers to Seeded Rd 3.
Again, 2 unbeaten and 6 Rd 3 winners in the AI QFs.
Two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn only to ensure 'bye team losers', like all 32 teams, play a minimum 3 matches.
You see, the Cork/Kerry loser in now guaranteed no more than an AI Last 24 spot; the winner to Last 14; and a Champs Rd win in required to ensure a Last 8 spot.




Results in Prov QFs are somewhat neutralised - winners and losers alike are guaranteed a Rd 1B berth if you allow a 3rd chance for Rd 1 losers only.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 18/01/2016 21:26:54    1817512

I wholeheartedly agree with Donegalman and have proposed the same idea before.
Throwing Dublin into Munster every five or six years(less often than an Olympics or World Cup) would suddenly turn the duopoly of Cork and Kerry into the most exciting province that year and give the other Leinster sides light at the end of the tunnel without the big blue juggernaut and raise their confidence for the season after when they return.

Its no big deal for each Ulster team to forgo the Ulster championship once every nine years in the interest of the game as a whole

THE BIG PICTURE

Once we have an even eight in each province, matches can be set in stone so teams know they will have championship football every four weeks. If they win, they play in the semi-finals but if they lose they would have a qualifier on the same weekend. No replays at this stage and it means club fixtures could be mandatory to be played in between the four weeks so the whole system doesn't grind to a halt and nobody loses out.

The fixture list would be unmovable so players and fans can plan with certainty and the provincial system can be maintained and actually enhanced with a few more novelty pairings year on year without losing local rivalries. Its a win win win. Leinster council could be compensated the year Dublin move out if airgead is a problem.

Here is a potential fixture list

03-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Munster+2 Leinster)

10-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Ulster +2 Connacht)

17-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Munster+2 Leinster)

24-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Ulster +2 Connacht)

31-May Two Provincial Semi finals(Munster+ Leinster )& Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week one and two

07-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Ulster+ Connacht)

14-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Munster+ Leinster )& Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week three and four

21-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Ulster+ Connacht)

28-Jun Second round of Qualifers for sides eleminated in week one and two

05-Jul Munster football final

12-Jul Leinster football Final & Second round Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week two and three

19-Jul Connacht and Ulster football finals & Beaten Munster finalist meets qualfier

26-Jul Beaten Leinster finalists meets qualfier

02-Aug Two All ireland Quarter finals & Beaten Connacht and Ulster finalists meet qualfiers

09-Aug Two All ireland Quarter finals

16-Aug Blank for intercounty football

23-Aug All Ireland semi final

30-Aug All Ireland semi final

06-Sep Blank for intercounty football

13-Sep Blank for intercounty football

20-Sep All Ireland final

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 19/01/2016 11:38:49    1817580

Yes, yes , yes but are you all not forgetting something?

There is a reason the provincial system has endured for over a century, whatever about the rivalries and traditions that have been built up, the simple reason for its durability is - Geography.

You talk about Dublin going into Munster, Kerry going into Connacht or whatever else. Have you not considered the additional cost and burden on supporters.

You know in some parts of Kerry it would take you the bulk of 2 hours to get to Killarney for a Munster final as it is.

You want a situation where fans have to be on the road for 8 or 10 hour round trips just to see their team in a provincial match, let alone the All Ireland series.

Aren't the costs for transport, accommodation etc in going to Q-finals, Semi-finals, Finals in Dublin enough without asking county supporters to travel the lenght and breath of Ireland for provincial championship games???? Do you not think that's unfair on people.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 19/01/2016 12:21:45    1817596

TheHermit Kerry would remain in Munster under that proposal so it would have zero effect on you poor suffering southerners.

If Donegal were put into Connacht for one season every nine years it would have very little effect on travel time as McHale Park isnt much difference from Clones.

Dublin fans can get the bloody train for once or head to Thurles. No big deal and again it would be only once every five to six years. Massive novelty factor but remember once you get it four eights, matches can be scheduled so that teams will play one game every four weeks and their clubs can play inbetween either the week after or two weeks after championship match

Schedule set in stone. Provincial local rivalry maintained. Open your eyes folks. This system is the best of a bad lot.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 19/01/2016 12:54:01    1817615

I don't think there is any modifying that can be done to the Provincial Championships.

It's stick or twist with them imo.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13721 - 19/01/2016 13:44:45    1817641

I don't think there is any modifying that can be done to the Provincial Championships.

It's stick or twist with them imo.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts:9286 - 19/01/2016 13:44:45

What? Yes there is. Its been highlighted throughout this thread. This simple fix alleviates the need to scrap them yet fixes the unbalanced nature of them so team A can play five games to win All Ireland whilst team B needs to win seven.

AND it helps set fixtures in stone AND helps club teams.

What is so difficult. For god sakes the problem is so simple to fix, could everybody just open up their minds a little and see the big picture.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 210 - 19/01/2016 14:04:12    1817649

You take away the traditions of the Provincial championships of you modify them imo.

You either keep them as they are or get rid of them completely. I'd favour the latter myself.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13721 - 19/01/2016 14:09:39    1817650

Look ShaggyKev,

Its the same thing as I've been saying on the Tommy Murphy thread:

We love to complain about the present system and say it needs to be changed, but then when someone comes up with an idea its shot down for this or that reason.

Sure look I did that myself with your proposal a few posts above, although now that you have clarified what you meant the issue I raised isn't so big a deal.

Either you keep the Status Qua or you do something more drastic, like your idea or the idea of some two-tier All Ireland once the provinces have been played.

Either way the GAA has to grow some backbone and force change through, if that's what they want to do. There will always be bellyaching. You just have to show leadership and put in a system and have the courage of your convictions to give it a decent chance to bed in.

What we have at the moment is the watered down compromise that is the qualifiers which has been here for 15 years and seems to have solved nothing in the long run.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 19/01/2016 14:15:14    1817654

I don't think there is any modifying that can be done to the Provincial Championships.

It's stick or twist with them imo.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts:9288 - 19/01/2016 13:44:45 1817641

I think what MesAmis is getting at here is the provincial councils won't let there be modifications made.

As far as the foreseeable future is concerned he's right.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4247 - 19/01/2016 14:20:41    1817660

I seen this idea before, i liked it then and i like it now. Works very well in american football as regards novel match ups and as it keeps the provincial system it has a chance of passing congress. It would also allow for an integrated county and club fixture list. We shouldn't be afraid of change all the time.

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 19/01/2016 15:11:44    1817691

Whammo86

I think what MesAmis is getting at here is the provincial councils won't let there be modifications made.

As far as the foreseeable future is concerned he's right.

Undoubtedly they'll be opposed to change but if there's will from the top for change, it can be done, sadly there is no will from Croke Park so that leaves us stuck with the outdated provincials for the foreseeable future.

But again I go back to the GPA, they went around the country gathering information and came up with a structure that apparently 31 counties backed. So if there is enough will/interest from these counties then surely this is the time (given that their opinion was totally disregarded by the Gaa) to stand up and take action.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 19/01/2016 15:29:46    1817700