The qualifier draws should be seeded based on league placing. The league is a national league. The qualifiers are part of a national championship. It seems unfair that an Ulster Division 1 county knocked by fellow Division 1 county in the Ulster preliminary or quarter-finals can draw another Division 1 county in Qualifier Round 1. All provinces use their own seeding which can lead to an imbalance of teams landing into the qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 29/01/2016 20:33:58    1820531

The qualifier draws should be seeded based on league placing. The league is a national league. The qualifiers are part of a national championship. It seems unfair that an Ulster Division 1 county knocked by fellow Division 1 county in the Ulster preliminary or quarter-finals can draw another Division 1 county in Qualifier Round 1. All provinces use their own seeding which can lead to an imbalance of teams landing into the qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4556 - 29/01/2016 20:33:58 1820531

I agree with this suggestion.

You seed teams into 4 pots.

Pot A Provincial Champions plus 4 next best from league
Pot B Provincial finalists not in pot A plus next best from league
Pot C next 8 best non-provincial finalists
Pot D bottom 8 teams in league not to reach a provincial final.

Qualifiers 1 Pot C v Pot D
Round 2 Pot B v Winners of 1
Round 3 Pot A v Winners of 2
Seed provincial champions so that if they reach semi-finals the traditional rotation remains.

Qualifier round 1 can be played around the time of provincial finals.

That round will mainly involve div 3 teams playing div 4 teams.

Div 4 teams aren't removed from the qualifiers, but to advance to play better teams they first have to be able to beat division 3 teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 29/01/2016 20:49:25    1820537

I've been taking another look at the below. I honestly think it's a fair motion. The Kerry hurlers are a good example for lower league counties across all codes.

GAA Central Council has endorsed the motion proposing an All-Ireland B football championship. This will go forward to next month's annual congress. The new championship will be confined to Division Four counties - as established at the end of the league campaign - and the winners will be allowed participate in the following year's All-Ireland qualifiers.
These counties won't however be allowed to enter the qualifiers in the immediate year once they are beaten in their provincial championship unless they reach the provincial final in which case the lowest-ranked Division Three county to have been eliminated from the championship will drop to the B.

(1) All counties will take part in their respective provincial championships.

- This is positive. All counties will remain part of their provincial championship.

(2) The teams that are placed in Division Four at the conclusion of the NFL will play in their Provincial Championship only. They will also participate in an All-Ireland senior 'B' football championship, which will be played on a straight knock out basis. The winners of the All-Ireland 'B' football championship will be guaranteed a place in the following year's All-Ireland football qualifiers.

- I can see why some might not agree but it's important that a standard is set for being part of the All-Ireland Championship. The above sets out a fair criteria to meet that standard.

(3) The winners of the provincial championships will progress directly to the All-Ireland quarter-finals. The losers of the provincial finals will play in round three of the All-Ireland football qualifiers.

- Seems fair enough as per the current system.

(4) The 16 teams who do not reach the provincial final and who are not eligible for the All-Ireland B championship will play in round one of the All-Ireland qualifiers. This will be an open draw.

- It's a positive move that all non-provincial finalists will be treated the same.

(5) The eight winners of round one of the All-Ireland qualifier will play in round two.

- Very practical and understandable that this would happen.

(6) In round three of the All-Ireland qualifier, the four winners from round two will play the four provincial final losers.

- Very practical and understandable that this would happen as well.

(7) In the All-Ireland football quarter-finals the four provincial final winners will play the round three winners.

- Again it's very practical and understandable that this would happen as well.

(8) In rounds one and two of the All-Ireland qualifiers, where teams from Division Two, Three or Four are drawn against a team from a higher division, the team from the lower division will automatically have home advantage.

- This is a positive move as well.

All in all I think the suggested motion is good. Group stages aren't all they are made out to be. There has to be room in the GAA calendar for both football and hurling fixtures.

Take a county like Waterford. If they are in Division 4 and are not making their provincial final, there is benefit in targetting to win a championship at their level as the Kerry hurlers have done. Winning the B championship should be a more realistic target. If they were to achieve that they might stand a better chance of making the progression to compete in a Munster final.

The important part of the motion is that Division 4 counties are not being cut adrift. They are very much a part of the provincial championships. In the previous Tommy Murphy Cup existence managers of those counties involved complained that there was no incentive to win it. The GAA with the current motion have suggested a fair incentive.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 30/01/2016 09:53:25    1820591

It is better than the old Tommy Murphy cup.

I still don't see why it's needed. I don't agree why there has to be a minimum standard for entry into the qualifiers. I'd consider being of a high enough standard to play for your county team should be enough.

I don't like the process by which this has come about.

GAA accept suggestions for a new championship structure. County boards submit a load of half baked proposals, most of them include a B championship because the highest profile suggestion is the Sean Kelly/Jim McGuinness style system and also Joe Brolly shouts his mouth off a bit on tv after Longford get hammered by Dublin. Look what happened the last time Joe Brolly shouted about matters we got the farcical black card rule. Meanwhile the only body who put in any time and effort and consulted with the players on what they want and produced a properly structured proposal gets absolutely ignored. In my mind that is ridiculous.

It also feels like a lazy solution to the problem of trying to get the weakest counties more games. 4 of the weaker counties only get 1 game in this system anyway, so there's only 3 extra games then available. No thanks. There's loads of better solutions if you want to address that problem.

I also don't like how it's possible that a division 4 team can win 2 matches in Ulster or Leinster, lose a semi-final against a division 1 team and then be dumped into the Tommy Murphy 2, whilst the teams they've beaten get another chance.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 30/01/2016 16:32:03    1820667

This could be a good idea if their was a real incentive to winning it. automatic entry to the qualifiers the following year is a bit of a joke really.
Teams 1-16 should be in All Ireland A
Teams 17-24 should be in All Ireland Intermediate
Teams 25-32 should be all Ireland Junior - 32nd team should be playoff between London/New York/Kilkenny

All Ireland Q finals should be
4 provincial winners
2 All Ireland Qualifierwinners
1 All Ireland intermediate winner
1 All Ireland Junior winner

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1133 - 31/01/2016 11:16:21    1820788

The Tommy Murphy Cup was previously just run off as a secondary competition. The teams involved were out of the championship and that was it. The reward of a place in the qualifiers for the winner in the following year is fair enough.

The current 4 rounds of qualifiers is a bit much. 3 rounds seems about right. I think it's positive that all non-provincial finalists in the qualifiers will be treated the same. If Kerry and Cork lose a Munster semi-final, they'll join the Ulster and Leinster losing quarter-finalists and semi-finalists in round 1 of the qualifiers. At the moment some counties have a bye to a provincial semi-final and bypass Qualifier Round 1 by default. The proposed three qualifying rounds will put an end to that.

Let the Kerry hurlers be an inspiration for all Division 4 counties. Focusing on winning a championship at their level is the best way to making the step forward towards higher ambitions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 31/01/2016 11:46:15    1820790

Exactly, i dont see a problem with having a secondary competition, all other sports have it. the provincial championships are where the small counties can get a shot at the big boys, bit like soccer and the FA cup. What gets me (and this is as an Antrim man) is players turning their noses up at playing a lower grade. We had Sean McVeigh come out and say he would prob pack it in if Antrim had to play a 'B' level championship. No disrespect to Sean but thats the level we are at at this minute in time. Don't hear him complaining about playing an intermediate competition with Ballymena

the_watcher (Antrim) - Posts: 128 - 31/01/2016 12:30:59    1820798

The current 4 rounds of qualifiers is a bit much. 3 rounds seems about right. I think it's positive that all non-provincial finalists in the qualifiers will be treated the same. If Kerry and Cork lose a Munster semi-final, they'll join the Ulster and Leinster losing quarter-finalists and semi-finalists in round 1 of the qualifiers. At the moment some counties have a bye to a provincial semi-final and bypass Qualifier Round 1 by default. The proposed three qualifying rounds will put an end to that.

You can treat all non-finalists the same in the current system.

Have division 4 teams have to play qualifier round 1, have 8 teams out of the other 16 teams drawn in round 1 also. Give 8 teams byes. Have teams who have won a championship match preference over those who haven't when drawing the teams who get byes.

I prefer 4 rounds of qualifiers, reduces the waiting time between matches for counties that have been knocked out early.

I also think the biggest injustice in the current system is that beaten provincial finalists get straight to the last 12 of the championship.

Cork got their last year by beating Clare, Donegal got to the Ulster final by beating Tyrone, Armagh and Derry.

That is not addressed by these proposals.

@tirawleybaron

Good post

People will complain about giving weaker teams an easier route to the later stages of the championship, but that's already the case where Cork and Kerry will only have to win one game to get to the last 12. I don't see much wrong with trying to give a leg up to the weaker counties. If one of those teams were to win the All Ireland they'd have won a junior championship plus then won 3 rounds against some of the top teams in the country. They'd still be worthy AI champions in my book.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2016 12:48:19    1820802

Exactly, i dont see a problem with having a secondary competition, all other sports have it. the provincial championships are where the small counties can get a shot at the big boys, bit like soccer and the FA cup. What gets me (and this is as an Antrim man) is players turning their noses up at playing a lower grade. We had Sean McVeigh come out and say he would prob pack it in if Antrim had to play a 'B' level championship. No disrespect to Sean but thats the level we are at at this minute in time. Don't hear him complaining about playing an intermediate competition with Ballymena

the_watcher (Antrim) - Posts:109 - 31/01/2016 12:30:59 1820798


I think Sean's being realistic. I know Sean personally he would definitely play a B championship if Antrim were in it, he's been committed to Antrim, London and Antrim again throughout his senior career.

The main point he was making was that there are going to be players on the fence about whether they want to put in the huge commitment that county football entails. It is hard enough for teams like Antrim to offer something to players without then taking that away from them.

At present we are not really close to any other Ulster team so we don't have much hope of a run in the Ulster championship. The qualifiers are our best hope of aspiring to a few wins in a serious competition. If that gets taken away it's going to get harder and harder for weaker teams to get their players out.

Club football is different from county football. County football is the representative level of our games, like International competitions in soccer.

There isn't grading in International soccer, every team starting a World Cup cycle has a somewhat fair opportunity to get to the main event. The reason why International football does this is to keep the profile of the game high in non-traditional nations. The GAA is doing the opposite and trying to make the games more elitist.

I think that's bad for the game as a whole and not just for teams like Antrim.

There also already is a graded competition in football, the NFL. If the GAA was serious about providing better second tier competitions then they could give the league a more prominent position in the calendar.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2016 13:36:33    1820814

3 provincial games is ideal before the All-Ireland series. For players and spectators the gap between the league and provincial semi-finals is not ideal. Munster and Connaught have less than 8 counties so some teams will receive a quarter-final bye and it is unavoidable unless Ulster and Leinster counties would like to move.

Technically in Munster you receive the bye for making the provincial final in the preceding year.

Ulster's preference is to have an open draw. Each province for their own way. As we've seen in the past, the Ulster championship can be lobsided with all the better teams on one side of the draw and even two Division 1 teams starting in the preliminary round. When their preference is to not use any form of seeding, it's just the nature of it.

The hurling championship is running smoothly enough with two provincial championships and a top 12. The proposed B championship will see the football run similar enough but just twice as many teams in 4 provincial championships and a top 24 overall.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 31/01/2016 13:46:42    1820815

Can you stop comparing hurling to football.

They are completely different sports, with different traditions, different following and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

Football has traditionally played more country-wide than hurling. The weaker competitions have helped promote hurling in non-traditional counties and Kerry's success is great, I hope they push on. They've probably improved interest in the game.

I think football is coming from a different place than hurling, interest is healthy in football across the whole country. There is something to lose by segregating the weaker counties from the championship.

About 7.5k people watched Antrim vs Fermanagh in the Ulster championship first round last year. I can't get a good estimate of the 2015 final but the 2014 Christy Ring final attracted about 4.5k people. That's a final played by the 15th and 16th best teams in Ireland, the Ulster championship attendance was for a first round match for a division 3 team and a division 4 team. The winner of the Ulster championship match got a televised semi-final, the Christy Ring cup final was not televised despite apparently being a "National Final".

To compare the 2 sports and think that what works for one will work for the other is absurd.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 31/01/2016 15:38:54    1820849

I'll compare football and hurling if I want. If you disagree you disagree and move on.

The hurling qualifiers run smoothly. The football qualifiers are a bit bloated. Cutting out one round of qualifiers will resolve the problem. When the Tommy Murphy Cup ran for a few years, the three qualifying rounds ran very smoothly. The GAA have come up with a motion that finds a balance of going back to 3 qualifying rounds and offering an incentive for lower league counties to win a championship at their level as the Kerry hurlers have done.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 31/01/2016 16:22:24    1820875

Whammo86 - you hypocrite have a look at you post comparing Football & Hurling, attendance etc, the old sentiment 'do as I say not as I do' comes to mind. There was approximately 7,000 at the Loughgiel v Cushendall county hurling semi-final and the same again at the Ballycastle v Cushendall final does that mean the counties should focus on club before county. I would agree you cant compare hurling and football as one does its talking on the pitch while the other does its talking in the pubs/forums/etc.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 01/02/2016 12:51:21    1821233

In my opinion, I believe I a structure similar to the NFL is the way forward. I think the goal for any potential structure should be -
1) ALL counties play same the number of games.
2) A solid reliable fixtures scheduled.
3) ALL teams start on the same foot.

How?
Draw a squiggly line from Antrim to Kerry separating the country in two halves. 16 teams in each side. Name them Western and Eastern.

Western - Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Mayo Galway, Clare, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, Roscommon, Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford
Eastern - Dublin, Cork, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Kildare, London, Wexford, Laois, Armagh, Antrim, Wicklow, Louth, Waterford, Down, Carlow

The Format?
1)The overall goal is that each division produces a Western/Eastern Champion who will play off in the All-Ireland.
2) Each division has an open draw to produce 4x4 groups. After year one the 4 semi finalists from West/East will be seeded into different groups.
3) Each team now has three games. 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral.
4) Western and Eastern will play on alternating weekends giving teams a fortnight between games at most. Championship Wk1 - Western, Wk2 - Eastern etc.
5) Rds 1 & 2 will be the designated home/away fixtures for counties with the final round of group games listed as the neutral games where double and triple headers will be utilized at the larger venues. *Western games will be restricted to Western venues and vice a versa.
6) Top two counties will qualify for their respective Western/Eastern Quarter finals.
7) Eventually we will have a Western and an Eastern final (Effectively All-Ireland semi finals). Cups will be awarded for to the divisional winners.

Why?
1) All counties have the same path
2) All counties have three games minimum.
3) As counties are set into a division there is 15 other counties they can face. Familiarity it breeds adaptation and allows weaker counties to gain foot holds.
4) A group format gives everyone a chance when their is an open draw.
5) Long breaks are gotten rid off.

TheFullBack (Galway) - Posts: 110 - 01/02/2016 13:12:24    1821250

@Bryancoyote

I don't really think there's a need for the insult. Plus what I said doesn't make me a hypocrite.

I didn't mean to come across as anti-hurling.

I'm not. I play football only, unfortunately I wasn't introduced to hurling at a young age and so never played it later on. Imo it is a better game. More skilful and if I ever am talking to visitors I'd always recommend they check out hurling over football.

In terms of interest hurling beats football at the top level. The hurling championship generates pretty much the same revenue as the football despite having about half as many games.

My point was below the top level hurling is a developing game, where as football is a more mature sport in all but the most hurling dominated counties like Kilkenny and Waterford.

The smaller hurling competitions are an improvement on what was there for those counties before whereas in my opinion the B championship in football is a step back for the weaker football counties.

Hurling and Football have different dynamics I don't think what has worked for one will work for others.

I think hurling has thrown up some warnings that football should be aware of.

The Ulster championship was removed from being part of the All Ireland series, hurling has taken backward step since then in Ulster.

I'm also worried about Antrims long term prospects if we become a regular Christy Ring cup participant.

Interest in hurling is strong in Antrim but might continue to wane if we aren't part of the top table.

You see players like Shane McNaughton and Neil McManus deciding to pursue other activities now that we've been relegated.

I am in no way criticising these players but it is worrying for Antrims prospects that we are losing these talented players.

It's also bad for hurling in general and I'd be scared football could follow a similar road.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2016 16:56:23    1821367

@ legendzxix

Sorry, You are obviously entitled to compare hurling to football. In my opinion there are good reasons why one should not be compared to the other when deciding what strategies to employ when trying to develop the game.

My primary concern is that a B championship is likely detrimental to participation levels at inter county level, which in turn can affect interest in the game at the lower levels.

Your primary concern seems to be to improve the flow of the championship.

I feel this to be of less importance.

I also feel that having 1 extra round of the qualifiers is a drop in the ocean with regards the scheduling problems that exist in the GAA.

The 1st qualifier round doesn't slow anything down at present anyway. The first qualifier round gets played at the time of the provincial semi-finals which have to be played before the last 24 round in both systems.

The 1st round qualifier plugs the gap between an early round provincial exit and the last 24 round so in my opinion it is preferable.

You find the new structure to be more fair as all non-finalists are treated equally. In my opinion the benefit of this is only a small improvement relative to the overall inequality currently in the championship.

I think the cost of excluding weak counties from the AI qualifiers is too big compared to the improvement in equality the new system contains.

I think the GAA are looking to take a half measure in dealing with the inequality which in a way is worse as it stalls the a move towards more significant changes which in my opinion needs to happen.

I find it frustrating the GAA so blatantly ignore the opinions of their players.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2016 17:15:38    1821375

legendzxix

On a side note, we are disagreeing with one another on two different threads.

I don't intend on coming across as antagonistic, whilst I disagree with your views, I am enjoying the discussion.

It's not especially surprising that a Kerry man and Antrim man have differing views. We couldn't come from much more different GAA backgrounds.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 01/02/2016 17:20:51    1821376

After an extensive rev

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 01/02/2016 18:34:53    1821400

You see players like Shane McNaughton and Neil McManus deciding to pursue other activities now that we've been relegated.

You'd be naive to believe that. Its strange that certain north Antrim rivals only sign on for the year when the others don't. The sooner some of our counties finest hurlers quit behaving like babies and watch how successful county players can leave their club feuds behind them for a greater cause, the sooner we can get back to were we should be. No disrespect to Kerry but if Antrim had their best hurlers available and playing as a team we wouldn't be in this division.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 01/02/2016 18:39:23    1821402

After an extensive review and consultation, the B championship is the only motion going to congress. Championship change has been a never ending discussion. There's has to be an acceptance of the reality of the situation.

I'd be in favour of a shortened league and provincial group stage. A former GAA president suggested something similar. It's not on the table. The idea didn't gain sufficient traction. Like other ideas that weren't accepted, there has to be an acceptance of it for what it is.

The GAA moves slowly. Integrating a B championship into the current structure will be a good first step. If there is an acceptance of having a top 24 in place, discussions can take place in the future on the format of that top 24.

The next primary focus needs to be on completing the All-Ireland club championships at the end of the calendar year. The inter county finals will probably have to move to August.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 01/02/2016 18:50:08    1821408