16a and 16b. 4 groups of 4. Promotion and relegation. Big days out are no use to teams like mine. Long term planning g is needed. Play against teams of a similar standard and improve steadily. The gap is now too big and it's time to stop fooling ourselves.

sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 21/01/2016 18:43:48    1818373

Any B competition should be a qualifier for the A competition, in that year

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts:1016 - 20/01/2016 21:58:27

100% agree. If the Tommy Murphy Cup was step towards winning the All-Ireland (ie in the same way that the provincial championships are) then teams will take it seriously. The current proposal is Gaelic football purgatory...

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 21/01/2016 21:42:47    1818398

Wicklow have previously won the B all ireland +tommy murphy cup ..we dont want another!!
This is a joke and doesnt well bode well for the new presidency and i would hope that it hasnt a chance in hell of being passed and would support a boycott of any new div4dontcareboutdemcip

curnew (Wicklow) - Posts: 449 - 22/01/2016 14:47:30    1818525

Wicklow have previously won the B all ireland +tommy murphy cup ..we dont want another!!
This is a joke and doesnt well bode well for the new presidency and i would hope that it hasnt a chance in hell of being passed and would support a boycott of any new div4dontcareboutdemcup

curnew (Wicklow) - Posts: 449 - 22/01/2016 14:47:54    1818526

Somehow I have a feeling that the all Ireland B competition won't happen.

Scallioneater (Carlow) - Posts: 293 - 23/01/2016 20:30:54    1818682

Why not rally support behind 'New 4 Eights' (without boundary changes) below -
After existing 1sr Rd in each prov - there is Lein8, Uls8, MunsConn8 (2 x SF 4) & Beaten 8 (latter plays for TMC, with champ to Qual Rd 3).
3 KO Rds to 3 Regional Champs - Lein, Uls & Munsacht (latter with proc champs playoff) - who earn 3 AI QF berths.
Losers in 3 Regional Rds of 12, 6, 3 enter 12-team Qual Rd 1; 12-team Rd 2; and 10-team Rd 3.
3 unbeaten Prov Champs and 5 Rd 3 winners contest Seeded Draw AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2618 - 23/01/2016 21:36:50    1818688

Why not rally support behind 'New 4 Eights' (without boundary changes) below -
After existing 1sr Rd in each prov - there is Lein8, Uls8, MunsConn8 (2 x SF 4) & Beaten 8 (latter plays for TMC, with champ to Qual Rd 3).
3 KO Rds to 3 Regional Champs - Lein, Uls & Munsacht (latter with proc champs playoff) - who earn 3 AI QF berths.
Losers in 3 Regional Rds of 12, 6, 3 enter 12-team Qual Rd 1; 12-team Rd 2; and 10-team Rd 3.
3 unbeaten Prov Champs and 5 Rd 3 winners contest Seeded Draw AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts:704 - 23/01/2016 21:36:50Munster and Connacht champions shouldn't have to face off to get to same stage as leinster and ulster champions.
This idea is stupid. If change is to happen bigger and better changes are needed

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 23/01/2016 21:48:46    1818692

To Sponger-

With your 16a and 16b earlier, could be used for season-long merged PreSeason/NFL/Championship as well. Before the Championship KO, we could have 15 games in each 16a and 16b with 4up/4down. Then top 8 in 16b, plays pne rd to get 4 winners that join top 9 from 16a (top 3 16a byes to AI QFs).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2618 - 24/01/2016 21:59:32    1818895

To Ormond - Do you prefer 4 Provs treated the same below - would you support this ?

'Treble Chance' (all teams guaranteed three matches; and 8 early losers get a 3rd chance)
 Open Draw in Rounds 1, 2 and AI SFs; Seeded Draw in Rounds 1B, 3 and AI QFs
 '8 Qualifier Round 1' losers (3rd chance) host '8 Prov SF' losers in new 'Seeded Round 1B'
 '4 Prov Final' losers join '16 Round 1 and 1B' winners in '20-team Open Draw Round 2'
 '2 new Champs Rd' losers join 10 Rd 2 winners in '12-team Open Draw Rd 3'
 '2 unbeaten Prov Champs' and 6 Rd 3 winners contest 'Seeded AI QFs'
 Two-legged provincial SFs in Munster and Connacht only, to ensure that 'bye team losers', like all 32 teams get a minimum of 3 matches
 Note - After initial 8 teams are eliminated and 4 others are 'Double Chance' Prov Champs, all 20 remaining teams engage in a 'Last Chance, Straight Knockout'

OR, if you prefer, simply add '4 Prov Final losers to current/existing Qual Rd 2' (now 20 teams) and proceed as above.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2618 - 25/01/2016 21:23:50    1819242

You just have to look at the soccer in England. League 1 & 2 teams realistically can't win an FA cup, yet there are from time to time upsets or a big day out against the 'bigger' sides, this contributes to the 'magic' of it all. The FA then have a completely separate competition (Johnson Paint Trophy) whereby the league 1 & 2 sides play against themselves, giving them an outlet of legitimately vying for a cup.

Success breeds success, give the so called weaker teams an opportunity to win something or the gap increases year on year but don't take away from them an opportunity to compete with the big boys.

Run the all Ireland as it is, come mid august (roughly around the time of the A.I S/Fs) begin a competition between div 3 & 4 teams, run it off in four consecutive weeks and play it prior to the A.I minor final.

Cilldara2012 (UK) - Posts: 88 - 27/01/2016 13:00:15    1819682

A number of people have suggested the B winner should enter the A championship in the same year. The problem is entering the winner into the A championship first round as they should not gain some form of advantage of having beaten lesser teams to get to the last round of the qualifiers.

Prior to the qualifier group in hurling, the GAA could have opted for entering the Ring winner into the first round of the qualifiers. It would have been easy in hurling as the Ring championship is finished so early.

I can't see the B championship motion passing at congress. In fairness it does adopt the part of the Kelly/McGuinness idea of the B winner being guaranteed a qualifier place in the following year. Hurling counties have accepted lower tiers and working to progress. The Kerry hurlers being a notable example.

Coming from a position where I attend lower tier hurling games, in that context I think it is fair for me to say that I think the B Championship as suggested will be good for Division 4 counties. The lower half of Division 3 and all of Division 4 will be more competitive. Counties will have a realistic chance of winning a championship at their level. It will set a standard for being in the qualifiers. When counties are striving to be at that standard it will raise their competitive level. In theory it should be a good springboard for the counties involved to go on to win a provincial championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 27/01/2016 20:26:02    1819854

I think Duffy's comments show there was never any intention to change anything. A few bad options were selected to pretend they were considering change and then they are able to say "we tried". Now Duffy says time to stop whinging and carry on with what we've got. It's all too lucrative to think what's best for the players & the fans.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 27/01/2016 21:53:23    1819882

A number of people have suggested the B winner should enter the A championship in the same year. The problem is entering the winner into the A championship first round as they should not gain some form of advantage of having beaten lesser teams to get to the last round of the qualifiers.

You can have the competition so that it isn't really an advantage to be in the second tier competition. Say you have 20 teams in tier 1, 5 into the quarterfinals, 5 into a playoff round. If the tier b champion wins a 12 team competition and hasn't had the opportunity to qualify directly for the quarters it isn't an advantage to go via the second tier route. Even if it was a slight advantage, it isn't the worst thing in the world to give weaker counties a bit of a leg up.

Also such a system is no more unfair than the current provincial system.


I can't see the B championship motion passing at congress. In fairness it does adopt the part of the Kelly/McGuinness idea of the B winner being guaranteed a qualifier place in the following year.

Players didn't like a b championship proposal in any shape or form. The proposal is a little better than the previous Tom Murphy Cup but it's still worse than the current system where teams are guaranteed a qualifier game already.


Hurling counties have accepted lower tiers and working to progress. The Kerry hurlers being a notable example.

Hurling is different from football, what works for them doesn't necessarily work for football. There are a lot of reasons for this.

Coming from a position where I attend lower tier hurling games, in that context I think it is fair for me to say that I think the B Championship as suggested will be good for Division 4 counties.

Again hurling has a different set of circumstance from football. County players are more qualified to,comment on this than you and they don't want it.


The lower half of Division 3 and all of Division 4 will be more competitive. Counties will have a realistic chance of winning a championship at their level. It will set a standard for being in the qualifiers. When counties are striving to be at that standard it will raise their competitive level. In theory it should be a good springboard for the counties involved to go on to win a provincial championship.

Winning a qualifier match is more of a springboard for success than winning a stupid competition that no one wants to play.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 27/01/2016 21:58:29    1819885

How about this proposal. Separate the Championship into two clear divisions, a Senior Championship and Intermediate. The teams would be divided according to their league position and so ensuring a competitive league. Divisions 1 & 2 (Senior Championship) Divisions 3 & 4 (Intermediate Championship). The championship could be played in a Champions League format with four groups of four teams and the teams would be seeded according to their league position. For example:
Senior Championship:
Group 1: Cork, Tyrone, Roscommon, Cavan
Group 2: Dublin, Mayo, Down, Laoise
Group 3: Monaghan, Kerry, Meath, Westmeath
Group 4: Donegal, Derry, Galway, Kildare
*Based on last years league.

Intermediate Championship:
Group 1: Fermanagh, Clare, Longford, Carlow
Group 2: Armagh, Limerick, Offaly, Wicklow
Group 3: Tipperary, Louth, Antrim, Waterford
Group 4: Sligo, Wexford, Leitrim, London

Each team would play each other once in a neutral venue (or home and away depending on length of time allocated) with the top two in each group progressing to the quarter finals.

canas (Wicklow) - Posts: 131 - 28/01/2016 10:29:07    1819919

whatever way you look at it. the county team is going to have to go professional and seperate itself from the club scene entirely.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 28/01/2016 10:52:31    1819935

Lads it all goes back to the same problem.

Getting rid of the provincials and replacing it with Champions League etc, robs most counties of any chance of any silverware. You will be left with only Sam Maguire.

Its obvious that whatever system is thought up in the future the provincial championships have to remain an integral part. Its madness to get rid of them, given both the power the Councils wield, the tradition they have etc. Its a losing battle.

You can maybe even up the number of team in them, whatever but they won't be got rid of anytime soon.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 28/01/2016 10:57:07    1819939

It all needs to change terribly division 3 and4 teams should have there own championship same as division1 and 2

The winner of the B championship would face the winner of the A championship

I do have better ideas but this is one

oakleafersir (Derry) - Posts: 808 - 28/01/2016 12:20:31    1819977

Is Duffy right that group stages don't interest the majority of GAA spectators? I hear soccer spectators saying the champions league only gets interesting in March.

In a round robin of 4, if you lose your first 2 games you are more or less out. Lose 2 games in the current championship prior to the quarter-finals you are out.

Sean Kelly and Jimmy McGuinness come across as intelligent enough people. They could only see a place for B winners being guaranteed part of the A championship in the following year. Sure look if the majority don't want it it won't get voted through.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 28/01/2016 18:57:54    1820150

Sean Kelly and Jimmy McGuinness come across as intelligent enough people. They could only see a place for B winners being guaranteed part of the A championship in the following year. Sure look if the majority don't want it it won't get voted through.

They were trying to solve a different problem. Make the championship more fair but keep the provincials meaningful. It was Sean Kelly's idea, McGuinnes just tweaked it to remove provincial finalists. Both liked how the system linked league with championship.

I don't see why weaker teams can't just enter the qualifiers. It's not as if it slows the championship down any running the first round, in the new system you have to wait until after all semis are played before the qualifiers can start anyway.

For whatever reason Kerry people seem to find it most difficult to understand why we don't want this. We don't need to be in with a shout of winning a competition to still get enjoyment out of competing. Our players want to test themselves at the highest level and our fans want to watch our team playing in the main competition.

A well designed league or group stage competition can be more exciting than a cup competition. i probably enjoy the World Cup most during the group stages even though there are loads of mismatches. Leagues are popular all over the world in most sports. I'd love to ask Duffy why he thinks those systems wouldn't work for the GAA. The players seem to want it. Seems likely to me that the GAA just don't want to rock the boat with the provincial councils.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 28/01/2016 19:23:12    1820159

In my 'Treble Chance' idea -
32 teams are guaranteed a minimum of 3 games (similar to 4-team round robin without groups and dead rubbers);
8 Qual Rd 1 losers only get a 3rd chance (to counterbalance lopsided provs);
For most other teams - it's 2 losses and you're out;
Prov and Qual streams advance in tandem (there is no waiting around).

Again - the plan below (what do you all think ?)

8 Qual 1 losers (3rd chance) host 8 Prov SF losers in new Qual Rd 1B;
4 Prov Final losers join 16 Rds 1 and 1B winners in 20-team Open Draw Rd 2 (mouthwatering level playing field);
2 new Champs Rd losers join 10 Rd 2 winners in 12-team Seeded Draw Rd 3;
2 unbeaten Prov Champs and 6 Rd 3 in Seeded Draw AI QFs
Two-legged SFs in Muns and Conn only to ensure 'bye team losers' (like all 32 teams) get the 3-match minimum.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2618 - 29/01/2016 15:42:43    1820408