they cant win haha
last summer they were all whinging looking for a b championship.
they propose it and they whinge they are excluding teams.
you cant win with people looking for changes every week.
best teams come to the top no matter what format

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts:10438 - 19/01/2016 16:20:29 1817724

That's not what happened here. The idea for a split came mainly from Jim McGuinness. He was actually looking at a way of making the championship fairer, because of the lopsided nature of the provincials. He adapted a suggested format by Sean Kelly as being an improvement and how he liked it as it linked league to championship more.

There was a call for a second tier competition from Brolly after Longford trounced Dublin in Leinster.

There were complaints about the qualifiers having run their course and more complaints against the unfairness of the provincial system so the GAA opened itself to submissions to change the championship.

During this process the players were firmly against a B championship. The GPA drew up their proposal for the championship, which was probably the best one that hit the table. Croke Park don't want to consider that proposal for whatever reason. Mainly because it meant changing the timing of the provincial series and it added more games to the inter-county season. To appear to show that they are taking championship reform seriously that have put this stupid B championship proposal to the table. No one from the counties affected wants this. Never have. It has been tried before and failed. It's a stupid idea.

You're right no matter what format there is the cream rises to the top and Dublin, Kerry and Mayo would be firm favourites for glory no matter what was used next year. The thing is the games aren't just about finding a champion. They're about providing entertainment for fans and good quality competitions for the guys putting in the time and effort that goes along with playing for their county. That is important, top-level sport has a huge impact on the interest at lower levels and this particular B championship proposal is likely only to,hurt the development of the game in the counties that are being forced out of the real championship and into this "competition".

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 19/01/2016 18:01:09    1817756

No interest for this type of competition.

seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2151 - 19/01/2016 18:59:34    1817773

Whammo the point is no matter what format people come up with you will never win with the media and pundits and supporters. The idea of a champions league style competition is the worst in my view as it is there in black and white for us to see already that it doesn't work in the sports of soccer and rugby who already use that format.it was only introduced for money reasons with tv and gate and sponsorship at the heart of it all and has clearly made it almost impossible for weaker leagues in Europe to get teams into the competition proper. I don't think the Tommy Murphy style will work either and I would be amazed if it got voted in at congress.
The only change you will ever see to the championship format will be somewhere down the line,that they will keep the same idea of four provincial style championships but instead of the current uneven numbers in each, you will have four competitions of eight teams. Whether it would be an open draw to select the teams into each championship I doubt it as they may go down the soccer and rugby route of seeding them based on the league which in one way would solve the cravings of those to link the league to the championship.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 19/01/2016 20:18:17    1817802

Looks like it's set to fail with almost all the players and managers from the counties involved opposing it as well as the gpa.

Louth Gael (Louth) - Posts: 1227 - 19/01/2016 20:18:37    1817803

No need for 4 Eights, if you simply -
Add '4 Prov Final and 2 new Champs Rd' losers to 20-team Qual Rd 2, and 12-team Rd 3, respectively.
6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten Champs in the AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 19/01/2016 21:35:44    1817829

Besides a few lazy pundits who clearly have no interest in doing their own jobs properly by analysing teams outside of division one there is absolutely no calls for this ridiculous idea. If this proposal gets the go ahead against the will of every county it involves there must be serious questions asked of the spirit in which the GAA is run.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 20/01/2016 09:10:42    1817845

The most amazing thing here is how completely out of touch the GAA are to the membership! Its ridiculous how much heed is paid to a couple of dinosaurs on RTE which usually starts the ball rolling! The black card, tiernan mc cans 8 week suspension and tommy murphy 2 all started on rte.

What the GAA need to do is face up to the professional element which is there and start capping and using their brains to find away to make it a more level playing field. Bring in rules to cap the finances, backrooms, managers, training etc and spend their time and effort in enforcing them!

This would create a fairer championship with a chance for every county to flourish.

Who has came up with this idea?

redhanddefender (Tyrone) - Posts: 913 - 20/01/2016 09:46:02    1817853

Even the likes of Carlow don't want this 'B' All-Ireland and Mickey Harte is right,only a couple of teams are ever in contention for All-Irelands,nothing new there..There will always be great,good,average and bad teams regardless..

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 20/01/2016 11:32:45    1817890

When you see proposals like this, it's obvious that GAA upper management are not interested in changing the way things are run. Personally I didn't like the GPA's proposal either. IMO, the lack of a fixture calendar is the main issue, current schedule format for championship is pre-historic and could easily be condensed into and 8-10 week window. Club football is where the focus should be, getting more games with more people involved, not pandering to an elite. How this is achieved is anyone's guess as your not going to kepp everyone happy. There are many decent proposals out there, have my own fav's but that's for another time. The current thinking in the GAA hierarchy is do nothing and hope it all goes away.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 20/01/2016 11:43:57    1817893

What, 'level the playing field', does any other sport work that way? Why not fight for Dublin to play with 11 players when playing Div 4 teams, 12 when playing Div 3, 13 when playing Div 2 and 14 when playing Div 1 opponents? My reading of it is that the 'football men' are above that what has been setup for the 'hurling men' of their counties. Its not so long ago that Limerick and other hurling counties threatened to forfeit matches in protest to the new six team national leagues as they wanted to play in the top tier, nothing was done about it. What the GAA need to do is have four competitions one for each National League in football. It would make the leagues more competitive and the top two teams progress up for the next years competitions in both Hurling an Football.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 20/01/2016 12:35:22    1817912

Another issue I have though is this idea that Division 4 teams seem to be asking for 2-3 chances to get to compete for the Sam Maguire.

I personally don't like the GPA's proposal and I'm amazed that it had the support among the players they claim it had.

I believe the Provincial Championships must have a role to play and should be retained in any restructure.

But coming back to the idea of a two-tiered system: as I said, how many bites at the cherry do the weaker teams want/expect?

Even under this new proposal of the GAA's they are still allowed enter the All Ireland through the Provincial Championship. If they win it, they go through to the All Ireland series.

People seem to want them to be able to be dumped out of the province and still get a back-door option and then, and only then maybe they'll consider being in an All Ireland B. To me that's just unrealistic. You can't give teams X many chances to compete just because they are 'weaker'.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 20/01/2016 13:20:09    1817934

None of the players or managers from the teams involved want this so it should be dead in the water, it would be absolutely shocking if congress now went and voted it in after practically everyone involved has said they have no interest in it. I am a staunch Louth fan and try my best not to miss a game from O'Bryne cup to qualifiers but I did not attend one game in the sham T.Murphy cup and I wouldn't be attending any in this. It is like a form of amnesia, T.Murphy cup had no spectators, very little intercounty players (as most went back to there clubs and managers had to use second teams) and no prestige, Louth won it but no one cared including myself.

Louth Gael (Louth) - Posts: 1227 - 20/01/2016 14:08:06    1817953

Both Mickey Harte and Daniel St Ledger have said that every team has the right to compete for the All ireland and shoudn't be excluded forgetting that with this proposal the division 4 teams have the right to compete for the all ireland through the provincial championship.

Fact is there needs to be a fundamental change in the championship structure and move to a league based format as the main copetition (at all levels of GAA) meaning comeptitions will have regular intervals between games and regular matches.

The GAA really is infuriating and the lack of willingness from counties to move with the times and accept taht not all counties deserve the rigth to play at the same level.

These people arguing against these proposals don't seem to find it ironic that club football across Ireland is run on a divisional basis and team shave to earn their right to pay at a higher level.Why the hell should intercounty football be any different.

If w edon't act soon we'll have the same problems with our competition structure that people ahve been complaining about for years and interest in the GAA will decline because of it.It is daft that most matches in football are played in the secondary competion and played outside of the summer months despite GAA supposing to be a summer sport.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 20/01/2016 14:13:59    1817955

Another issue I have though is this idea that Division 4 teams seem to be asking for 2-3 chances to get to compete for the Sam Maguire.

I personally don't like the GPA's proposal and I'm amazed that it had the support among the players they claim it had.

I believe the Provincial Championships must have a role to play and should be retained in any restructure.

But coming back to the idea of a two-tiered system: as I said, how many bites at the cherry do the weaker teams want/expect?

Even under this new proposal of the GAA's they are still allowed enter the All Ireland through the Provincial Championship. If they win it, they go through to the All Ireland series.

People seem to want them to be able to be dumped out of the province and still get a back-door option and then, and only then maybe they'll consider being in an All Ireland B. To me that's just unrealistic. You can't give teams X many chances to compete just because they are 'weaker'.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts:986 - 20/01/2016 13:20:09 1817934

Really silly statement. These teams are hoping to keep equal treatment it's not as though they're looking for preferential treatment.

They want 2 bites at the cherry, like everyone else gets.

In Leinster say you could have a situation where a div 4 team beats a div 3 team in the 1st round. Loses in the quarterfinals and then is out of the competition, yet the team that they beat are able to enter the qualifiers. How is that fair?


You can't just give teams X many chances to compete just because the are "stronger".

Why are you so against weaker teams being part of the qualifiers, it has practically zero impact on Gaels from counties outside of div 4 but has a big impact on div 4 fans and players enjoyment of the season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/01/2016 14:24:04    1817957

uibhfhaili1986

The GAA really is infuriating and the lack of willingness from counties to move with the times and accept taht not all counties deserve the rigth to play at the same level.

These people arguing against these proposals don't seem to find it ironic that club football across Ireland is run on a divisional basis and team shave to earn their right to pay at a higher level.Why the hell should intercounty football be any different.

If w edon't act soon we'll have the same problems with our competition structure that people ahve been complaining about for years and interest in the GAA will decline because of it.It is daft that most matches in football are played in the secondary competion and played outside of the summer months despite GAA supposing to be a summer sport.

You can't compare club championships to the All-Ireland, club football is important to many people but the AI's are of national importance to Gaa fans and it brings in the big money to help keep the organisation going.

Look there's only 31 counties in Ireland competing in the football championship, most would find it difficult to compete with the top 5 and maybe the bottom 5 are well adrift of the pack, but that still leaves roughly 20 middling teams who could all compete with each other on a given day. On the back of that I don't see a legitimate reason to split the championship and basically exclude half the country from playing big championship games, it would do nothing but harm to weaker counties.

Think about it, if the champsionship was split into a top and bottom 16, then counties such as Wicklow, Carlow, Leitrim etc are almost never going to play against a big championship name again, what possible benefit could that have for interest within those counties?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/01/2016 14:59:34    1817969

Being from a weaker county I can't understand the reluctance to this proposal. You need to be able to compete and you need to be in with a chance of silverware. The likes of Leitrim, carlow Waterford etc have been trying to get out of div 4 for years to no avail. Leitrim have one win in the qualifiers since they were introduced and apart from good displays against Donegal and Meath in Carrick have suffered some heavy defeats. As a fan I would prefer to see my team play a competitive game with a chance of winning building momentum and maybe getting a day out in croke park.

3rdmidfielder (Australia) - Posts: 295 - 20/01/2016 17:36:32    1818049

The last post......"almost never going to play against a big championship name again" - I don't understand...in the SK/JMcG idea, the weak can have a big game in the Provs; or get promoted either from the Intermediate 16 or via the NFL - it's not a static 16.

Re: earlier 'X chances for the weak' - currently arguments are made that while most teams get 2 chances, the Prov Champs do not - I'm ok with this as the rules are applied the same to all - 2 chances to Last 8 and KO thereafter.
(Brazil win 3 group games and can be KO'd by a 4-pt team in the Last 16 - nobody complains on World Cup fairness). Accordingly, I'd be ok with giving the early Qualifiers a 3rd chance (in Rd 1B), as it gives all a min 3 matches to all (if 2-legged Muns and Conn SFs) - and who cares if a minnow goes on a tare after 2 losses to win 6 straight and take home Sam (I prefer 6-2 via multi chance KO than dead-rubber-riddled round robins).
Although, I like the Prov-NFL link to the Championship presented by 'Wham' earlier leading to the AI Champ at the end - could replace the early yr competitions as well, to allow for at least 12 league/ championship games.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 20/01/2016 18:05:33    1818062

Being from a weaker county I can't understand the reluctance to this proposal. You need to be able to compete and you need to be in with a chance of silverware. The likes of Leitrim, carlow Waterford etc have been trying to get out of div 4 for years to no avail. Leitrim have one win in the qualifiers since they were introduced and apart from good displays against Donegal and Meath in Carrick have suffered some heavy defeats. As a fan I would prefer to see my team play a competitive game with a chance of winning building momentum and maybe getting a day out in croke park.

3rdmidfielder (Australia) - Posts:4 - 20/01/2016 17:36:32 1818049

It was tried before. You need to be able to compete, I'm not sure you need to be in with a chance of some silverware though, if that were the case we'd have an All-Ireland of 5/6 teams. Leitrim are maybe a particular case where they have had zero joy from the qualifiers, that's not the case for all the teams being shunted off into this competition. Antrim have a win over Galway under our belts, got a to at Kerry in a qualifier round 4 tie, beat Laois-a team 2 leagues above us last year. Weaker counties can have relative success through the qualifiers.

Unlike some I'm not wholly against grading the championship in some shape or form, it'd need to be a well designed second tier. This particular proposal doesn't fit that bill. It's a regurgitation of a plan that has been implemented before and failed.

The biggest problem for me is that players don't want to play in the competition, that being the case it is doomed to be a nothing tournament.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 20/01/2016 18:09:50    1818063

omahant

The last post......"almost never going to play against a big championship name again" - I don't understand...in the SK/JMcG idea, the weak can have a big game in the Provs; or get promoted either from the Intermediate 16 or via the NFL - it's not a static 16.

I mean a big name in a championship match and under the SK/JMcG proposal the provincials aren't part of the championship proper which will inevitably lead to the devaluation of the provincials and therefore will not generate the same interest for weaker counties.

Also promotion via winning an intermediate AI or through the NFL is great but how many different counties is that likely to benefit? Again weaker counties like (and I hate to pick on them) Carlow, Wicklow and Leitrim etc etc just aren't likely to gain promotion through these routes any time soon and one good way to kill off interest within those counties would be to exclude them from the main competition.

This is why I don't like the SK/JMcG idea and I think it's only getting traction because it suits the better counties, but the weaker counties have spoken, they DO NOT want to play in a B championship so what is the sense in forcing it upon them, especially considering there's other options, ie= 8 groups of 4 seeded using the League, simple and it guarantees everybody 3 games.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 20/01/2016 19:09:27    1818081

Any B competition should be a qualifier for the A competition, in that year

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 20/01/2016 21:58:27    1818145