The majority of inter-county GAA spectators go for the big events of provincial finals and All-Ireland semi-finals and finals.

Spoken like a true Kerry-man.

If Antrim had 3 home games and another neutral game acting as a curtain raiser to a Provincial championship semi-final I would go to all 4 of those matches. I'd probably go to the odd away game in Ulster if it suited.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 31/01/2016 14:46:33    1820834

They won't have the appetite for group stages.

How do you know, it hasn't been tried.

Again yesterday you hear Galvin talking about not wanting to start the league until after St Patricks day.

The system above can be played out during April, May, June, July.

The provincial championships remain and are a huge part of the All-Ireland series. Provincial finalists are guaranteed a place in the top 20, provincial champions guaranteed a place in the playoff rounds.

I don't see what is being lost in this system.

A guy wanting to commit for a season for playing for a weaker county knows he'll be committing for preseason and then 7 weeks of matches. If they do well they get another 5 games to test themselves against better teams. 2 of them at home plus 8 of the 12 teams can play their neutral game as a curtain raiser to a provincial championship final.

I don't understand why Gaelic fans are such a different breed to everyone other sports fan in the world where people go to watch league matches week in week out.

I can think of very little things I'd rather be doing with my Sundays in April, May, June and July than going to watch football every weekend.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 31/01/2016 15:03:24    1820840

It's the Irish sporting public in general. The big days out are great and they enjoy a few big one off events.

The crowds for group stages in the All-Ireland wouldn't be much different to the league. Attendances as they are are pretty good in the provincial championships. It's just the way it is. The GAA are shrewd when it comes to making money. They know what the majority of their paying public want and they are not going to rock that boat too much.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 31/01/2016 16:34:57    1820879

It's the Irish sporting public in general. The big days out are great and they enjoy a few big one off events.

The crowds for group stages in the All-Ireland wouldn't be much different to the league. Attendances as they are are pretty good in the provincial championships. It's just the way it is. The GAA are shrewd when it comes to making money. They know what the majority of their paying public want and they are not going to rock that boat too much.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:4562 - 31/01/2016 16:34:57 1820879

See I just don't see what the GAA are losing.

So the system I describe above has 1 extra game over the current National League and Championship system.

There's still provincial championships.

In addition to provincial championship games you get round-robin games that replace the National League and first 2 qualifier rounds.

The playoffs include 15 matches, replacing the qualifiers round 3 and 4 and All Ireland quarter-finals on.

Games in phase A of the league count in Phase B in the league, only games against eliminated teams get dropped. So Kerry will play 12 games with 9 of those counting. 2 of those games will be Munster championship games. The other games will be against other Munster teams and games against the strong Leinster teams.

Every season Kerry will play Dublin in their league. The games meaningful. The way the playoffs are structured depending on which place you finish you have to win a different number of games.

You have 1st place teams needing to win 3 games, 4 for 2nd and 3rd place games, 5 for 4th place teams and 6 for 5th and 6th placed teams.

In Ulster/Connacht you'll have the top 10 teams all playing each other once. Pretty much Guaranteed big derbies like Derry v Tyrone, Armagh v Down. The games will be part of the championship proper not just a preseason competition that teams treat with a varying degree of seriousness.

Ok you'll have games like Kerry v Clare, Kerry vs Wexford, Kerry v Offaly. Those probably won't hold much interest for you but they will hold interest for the fans and players of the other team. Those are games where management can test out new players so they might generate interest. Of Kerry's 12 league games 5 of them will be at home plus 2 neutral venue games in the provincial semis and finals.

I hate when people don't take things on merit. Your attitude is that the GAA just don't want something therefore it won't happen. The system above fits a number of the criteria that are coming out in the media that players and managers want.

Shorter season

Maintain but not significantly add to the existing number of games

Retain the provincial championships as an integral part of the wider All-Ireland

Don't have many dead rubber matches

Have a more league based season where players aren't waiting for 3/4 weeks between games (to be honest I think this is a big stumbling block for why GAA doesn't get better attendances, they never build on the momentum and excitement generated by their big matches. Someone sees a good game then they have to wait another month to see their team out again, provided that they haven't already lost and exited the championship)

Have more games amongst the top teams at the height of the season

Have the early stages regionalised to maintain interest

For the first 7 weeks there'll be 16 matches a week, the quality overall won't be as good but then there are enough good that there should be a few good games a week. Plus 24 of the matches will be provincial championship games.

The next 5 weeks will have 10 games a week. Better quality on average and including 4 provincial finals.

The next 6 weeks are the playoffs.

4 games for the first 2 weeks.
2 games a week for the next 3 weeks involving the top 8 teams in the country.
All Ireland final

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 31/01/2016 17:59:21    1820931

I'm not against group games and I know these group games would be replacing current league games. People going to league games have no problems with such things.

The Champions League for a few years had two group stages. It was a turn off for spectators and they scrapped the second group stage with a Round of 16 instead.

The provincial councils don't want to adopt a group stage and the majority of their paying public wouldn't be enthusiastic about them.

I can understand some people wanting a group stage after the provincial championships but like the second group stage in the champions league, it wouldn't be a big crowd hit at that time of year. The provincial councils wouldn't want a dilution of their championships feeding into the All-Ireland series either. The motion about the B championship going to congress is the only change likely to be seen.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 31/01/2016 18:16:59    1820951

This system isn't the same as the champions league second group phase.

It's more of a continuation of the league as already started. Instead of teams playing 15 matches in a 16 team league it cuts the wheat from the chaff after 7 rounds and then just continues on the momentum from the earlier rounds.

The champions league was a fresh start, another 6 games starting from scratch.

In this system teams will be have played 4 counting matches at the start of phase B with another 5 to come. There all already stories lines their. Can Tyrone make up ground after losing a few early matches.

If you look at the groups based on this year's Provincial draws you'd see these teams likely emerging:

Northwest A Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon, Armagh, Cavan
Northwest B Mayo, Monaghan, Donegal, Galway, Down

There's some great pairing in there

The Southeast league isn't quite as good unfortunately.

Southeast A Dublin, Kerry, Meath, Laois, Clare
Southeast B Cork, Kildare, Westmeath, Tipperary, Wexford

There'd be fewer top games but it would be competitive lower down the pecking order with even the weakest of the teams fancying their chances of getting a playoff spot. I think the games between teams from the same province would also all get decent crowds. Teams playing a home game against Kerry or Dublin will get people out to them.

If you were to also incorporate a 12 team hurling league where every team places each other once and to organise a fixture list that maximises counties getting to play home double headers one in each code maybe you start improving interest in both sports.

I really think you're offering a better product to more fans and players than is currently out there. Weaker counties get a good amount of marquee fixtures at the start of the season, then the championship hots up as the field gets thinned out.

The provincial championships themselves are still do or die straight knockout. As I say the still retain meaning in the season. A provincial,finalist not finishing in the top 5 in their group would replace the 5th placed team for the place in Phase B. All Provincial champions make the playoff rounds.

The season is way more fair than the current season though.

Apart from 2 of the Leinster preliminary round teams where that game decides which set of 16 teams they play in, teams all have the same initial route to the AI final.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 31/01/2016 19:16:39    1820978

You've put good thought into it on one level but there's too much of an explanation required and hence it wouldn't get passed congress and I couldn't see the GAA paying public being enthusiastic about it. In any business you need to know your paying public. The GAA knows there's. While the championship structure might be infuriating when compared with slick Champions League models, it's unique, it's got it's own character and it's a hit with it's paying punters. All counties run their own county championships. All provinces run their own provincial championships. It's just the way it is. Each to their own.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 31/01/2016 21:37:09    1821081

*their's

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 31/01/2016 21:55:57    1821098

In my opinion, I believe I a structure similar to the NFL is the way forward. I think the goal for any potential structure should be -
1) ALL counties play same the number of games.
2) A solid reliable fixtures scheduled.
3) ALL teams start on the same foot.

How?
Draw a squiggly line from Antrim to Kerry separating the country in two halves. 16 teams in each side. Name them Western and Eastern.

Western - Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Mayo Galway, Clare, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, Roscommon, Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford
Eastern - Dublin, Cork, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Kildare, London, Wexford, Laois, Armagh, Antrim, Wicklow, Louth, Waterford, Down, Carlow

The Format?
1)The overall goal is that each division produces a Western/Eastern Champion who will play off in the All-Ireland.
2) Each division has an open draw to produce 4x4 groups. After year one the 4 semi finalists from West/East will be seeded into different groups.
3) Each team now has three games. 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral.
4) Western and Eastern will play on alternating weekends giving teams a fortnight between games at most. Championship Wk1 - Western, Wk2 - Eastern etc.
5) Rds 1 & 2 will be the designated home/away fixtures for counties with the final round of group games listed as the neutral games where double and triple headers will be utilized at the larger venues. *Western games will be restricted to Western venues and vice a versa.
6) Top two counties will qualify for their respective Western/Eastern Quarter finals.
7) Eventually we will have a Western and an Eastern final (Effectively All-Ireland semi finals). Cups will be awarded for to the divisional winners.

Why?
1) All counties have the same path
2) All counties have three games minimum.
3) As counties are set into a division there is 15 other counties they can face. Familiarity it breeds adaptation and allows weaker counties to gain foot holds.
4) A group format gives everyone a chance when their is an open draw.
5) Long breaks are gotten rid off.

TheFullBack (Galway) - Posts: 110 - 01/02/2016 10:36:42    1821169

In my opinion, I believe I a structure similar to the NFL is the way forward. I think the goal for any potential structure should be -
1) ALL counties play same the number of games.
2) A solid reliable fixtures scheduled.
3) ALL teams start on the same foot.

How?
Draw a squiggly line from Antrim to Kerry separating the country in two halves. 16 teams in each side. Name them Western and Eastern.

Western - Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh, Mayo Galway, Clare, Kerry, Limerick, Tipperary, Roscommon, Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Cavan, Leitrim, Longford
Eastern - Dublin, Cork, Tyrone, Monaghan, Meath, Kildare, London, Wexford, Laois, Armagh, Antrim, Wicklow, Louth, Waterford, Down, Carlow

The Format?
1)The overall goal is that each division produces a Western/Eastern Champion who will play off in the All-Ireland.
2) Each division has an open draw to produce 4x4 groups. After year one the 4 semi finalists from West/East will be seeded into different groups.
3) Each team now has three games. 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral.
4) Western and Eastern will play on alternating weekends giving teams a fortnight between games at most. Championship Wk1 - Western, Wk2 - Eastern etc.
5) Rds 1 & 2 will be the designated home/away fixtures for counties with the final round of group games listed as the neutral games where double and triple headers will be utilized at the larger venues. *Western games will be restricted to Western venues and vice a versa.
6) Top two counties will qualify for their respective Western/Eastern Quarter finals.
7) Eventually we will have a Western and an Eastern final (Effectively All-Ireland semi finals). Cups will be awarded for to the divisional winners.

Why?
1) All counties have the same path
2) All counties have three games minimum.
3) As counties are set into a division there is 15 other counties they can face. Familiarity it breeds adaptation and allows weaker counties to gain foot holds.
4) A group format gives everyone a chance when their is an open draw.
5) Long breaks are gotten rid off.

TheFullBack (Galway) - Posts: 110 - 01/02/2016 12:56:18    1821238

To Whammo86 -

Good stuff in your recent posts - even surpassing your usual high standards - well thought out - building Football like your 'Super 12' AI Hurling League/Champp earlier -
makes NFL more meaningful, merges the provs, and has a fixed season schedule with the right number of games.

You are the 'Djokovic' of the 'Big 4 Posters' on this site - Congrats !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 01/02/2016 17:06:44    1821372

Thanks Omahant I like it.

I think it addresses a number of the problems coming out in the media with the current system.

At legendzxix

While the championship structure might be infuriating when compared with slick Champions League models, it's unique, it's got it's own character and it's a hit with it's paying punters. All counties run their own county championships. All provinces run their own provincial championships.

I agree with practically everything you have said here.

The system above keeps the best parts of the provincial based model but then adds to it.

With regards the provincial championships I've looked to minimise interference in them.

The only restrictions in the provincial championship are that one of the Leinster preliminary rounds has to be played ahead of the other fixtures starting. Maybe worth bringing in a rule that teams drawn in this round are then exempt from it for the next 2 years.

The other 3 preliminarily round matches need to be played on week 1 of the season proper. The provincial quarters final all need to be played within the first 7 weeks of the season (all the championships have their semi-finals played within 6 weeks of their first round at present) and then the finals have to be played at some point in the subsequent 5 weeks.

All the other scheduling can be done around whatever the provincial councils plan to do.

I mentioned having round robin games being part of double-headers with provincial semi-finals. That is just an option for the provincial board to look into if they so wish, instead of this double headers involving 2 round-robin games can be scheduled.

If in Munster they like having home ties in finals and semi-finals then round robin games can be used for the neutral venue matches instead.

With regards to creating a "B" championship competition, maybe that can be provided as a competition instead played before the provincial championships begin..

Those counties who failed to progress the previous season play for the B championship as compensation for missing out on further games in the previous season.

Players are more likely to want to play in that competition as it's a chance at silverware in preparation for the main event.

Winning that could properly set a team up for a tilt at the rest of the season. With the league not until April there's time to play this off in March.

Those teams start their season early but they are also more likely to finish it early too so it evens itself out.

Provincial councils might be more inclined to go open draw for their provincial championships, with the overall competition being more fair there's less incentive to give their strong teams a helping hand.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 01/02/2016 19:43:12    1821426