Oh and there was 22 changes put forward as far as i was aware

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 10/11/2015 19:42:13    1806146

Now that players from weaker counties say No to Tier B - now what - a version of the GPA Plan ?
To avoid Seeds 1 v 4 mismatches and get traction on some change - I would implement the GPA idea with the following adjustments -
1) Draw thd 8x4 after the Prov SFs.
2) 24 non-Prov Finalists seeded 2, 3 or 4 based on NFL ranking.
3) Assign a 2 and 3 seed to each of the 8 sections.
4) Assign a Prov Final to complete each of 4 groups - L, U, M, C.
5) Allocate a pair of 4 seeds to complete the rest in 4 pools - R,E,S,T.
6) AI Last 16 has 4 Pool winners host 4 Group winners; while 4 Group 2nds host 4 Group 3rds.
7) AI QFs - 4 Group or Pool winners drawn v Other 4.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 11/11/2015 20:45:19    1806575

I didnt bother reading them all but I think proposal 4 is worth a shot

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 12/11/2015 09:39:50    1806634

It's looking pretty likely the GPA plan will be adopted.

It has a lot of positives over the current system. More games and more occasions for weaker counties to play against better teams, which I feel is the only way they are likely to improve.
It's a fair system, it doesn't get affected by the differences in quality between provinces.


I do worry about it from a spectators point of view.
The group stage is designed in such a way to try and eliminate dead rubbers but in doing so it does mean the knockout stage has a round too many for my liking.
There's going to be a lot of boring matches. Mismatched teams go up against each other and there isn't even locally rivalry to spark some interest.
The provincial championships are getting hugely downgraded, I think interest in them will suffer. The timing and separation of the provincials makes them into another preseason competition before the main event of the championship gets underway.

I am glad that there isn't going to be a Jim McGuinness/Sean Kelly style 2nd tier competition, I think it would have really hurt player interest from the weakest counties.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/11/2015 19:58:19    1806908

I certainly hope they tweak the GPA idea though - 8 x 1234 seeds is awful -
what do you think of my 4 x 1123 groups (with 3 advancing, and the ones being Prov Finals played as 2nd of the 3 group matches), and
4 x 2344 pools (with 1 advancing), leading to the Round of 16.
If all goes according to plan, the 8 ones play the 8 twos in Rd of 16 - and I tweak what I said earlier -
4 Group winners host 4 Group 3rds, while 4 Pool winners host 4 Group 2nds.
4 Group winners, or if less than 4, with pool winners, seeded in AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 13/11/2015 14:16:40    1807070

I certainly hope they tweak the GPA idea though - 8 x 1234 seeds is awful - what do you think of my 4 x 1123 groups (with 3 advancing, and the ones being Prov Finals played as 2nd of the 3 group matches), and 4 x 2344 pools (with 1 advancing), leading to the Round of 16. If all goes according to plan, the 8 ones play the 8 twos in Rd of 16 - and I tweak what I said earlier - 4 Group winners host 4 Group 3rds, while 4 Pool winners host 4 Group 2nds. 4 Group winners, or if less than 4, with pool winners, seeded in AI QFs.

I can see your thinking behind it. Your system incorporates the provincial championships into the All Ireland and also means that a team getting knocked out early from their province will get a group game in before the provincials are finished. I think though I'm very in favour of the mismatches. I wouldn't have been say a month a go but I think if standards overall are to improve then the worst teams have to have regular exposure to playing the best teams.

If you want to go down the route of creating a grouped competition with provincial championships part of the structure it can be achieved.

Add London to Ulster. Give them 2 groups of 5. A group of 5 and one of 6 in Leinster. Connacht and Munster have their own group. So top 2 from each group in Ulster and Leinster get to their semi-finals. Top 2 in Munster and Connacht contest their finals. Top 4 from each group qualify for the All-Ireland knockout series.

First round group 3rd and 4th place teams playoff, reduces the competition from 24 to 18 teams.

2nd round losing semifinalists in Ulster and Leinster and losing finalists in Munster and Connacht play against the round 1 winners. 6 games gets us down to 12.

Ulster and Leinster finalists join the 6 round 2 winners. 4 games and gets us down to the All Ireland quarterfinals.

Gives weaker teams regular games against the best in their province, the weakest teams still have something to play for with 24 teams qualifying for an All Ireland series match. The top teams contest their provincial championships whilst also getting byes to latter rounds of the All Ireland series.

It's kind of a hybrid of the GPA plan and the current qualifiers but seems more fair to me as teams are more evenly spread between which round they enter the All Ireland at.

There's a similar number of games as the GPA plan which has 28 provincial matches plus 71 All Ireland games. This has 78 provincial ties plus 23 All Ireland games. I kind of like how it takes 100 games to decide the All Ireland finalist, but hey I am a bit of a nerd.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 14/11/2015 10:56:39    1807204

Being nerdy is somewhat required when coming up with good ideas - believe me, I know ! :)
My plan only eliinates 1v4 - a pair of 4s still gets to play a 2 and 3 seed - this should be initially a high enough bar to reach.
By the way, one of the 18 ideas ihas 6 prov groups leading to AI Series.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 14/11/2015 20:18:57    1807316

Yeah I didn't really like that plan. It had the weaker teams playing off to qualify for the group stage, then they were shoved off into a second tier tournament. It also tiered the groups in Ulster and Leinster. I think it'd be better with every team in the group stage. As an Antrim fan I'd definitely go to watch their 4 group games. They only have to finish 4th in their group so keeps them with something to play for. 24 teams qualify for a knockout match just like the GPA plan but there's also the excitement of who will qualify for the finals and semi-finals in each province.

I kind of think you need to keep the provincial structure as part of the early stage of the championship to keep up interest. I don't like them being turned into a bit of a warm up act.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 14/11/2015 21:14:48    1807330

With the Carlow plan, there is a 32-county KO. I don't mind, and rather prefer, results of the prov championship of the PRIOR year being used, as it only determines AI rd entry level.
Howver, I feel top 8 NFL ranked from non-prov final 24 is a better methpd - a Done v Tyr prelim rd loser should get a bye to AI rd 2, while Muns SFlosers should enter rd 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 15/11/2015 14:22:06    1807388

To Whammo86 -
With your KO 24 above, you enter Lein Uls losing finalists into Last 12, while MunsConn losing finalists enter a rd earler Last 18 - a good way of overcoming prov imbalance. In a prior idea, my 24/7 plan, I had the prov champs playing off to get 3 in the AI QFs, with 1 losing champ and LeinUls finalists to AI Last 13.
Similar - but I prefer giving Cork Kerry more to do.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 15/11/2015 20:56:19    1807488

As the GAA is slow to change, I could see them adopting modest changes as follows:
1) 16 lowesr NFL ranked of the 24 non-prov finalists in seeded Qual Rd 1 (8 weakest hosts other 8).
2) 8 highest NFL ranked of the 24 join 4 losing prov finalists as 12 byes to 20-team Rd 2 (open draw).
3) Prov Champs Playoff Rd - 2 winners to AI QFs; 2 losers to 12-team Rd 3 (6 highest NFL ranked seeded and hosts).
4) 6 Rd 3 winners complete the AI QF field.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 27/11/2015 17:18:03    1810283

Based on my last post, I think '2+6' (2 unbeaten champs and 6 Qualifiers) is a good change, if the provs are to be retained unchanged ?
Thoughts ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 12/12/2015 20:25:16    1812789

You'll love this Omahant

http://www.the42.ie/tipperary-club-hurling-championship-proposal-2501568-Dec2015/

Would be better if they got rid of the league and had 12 teams instead of 9, but interesting idea for incorporating the provincial championships within a league format.

I also think there should be no club championship played during county season. Club league should be played on Friday and Saturday evenings during the county season without county players. County players should get a break week every 3 weeks not 2.

County season March to August bank holiday weekend. Both Hurling and Football finals played that weekend. alternate between years as to which code gets the Saturday and which one gets the Sunday. Walk a weekend of sport and craic in Dublin.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 16/12/2015 18:09:36    1813198

You are absolutely right, Whammo86. In fact, I had proposed a variant of this -

1) Two 5-team Muns and Lein KO championships used to build two 5-team groups, A & B.
2) Teams in prov pairings are placed in opposite groups, as the KO unfolds, as below.
3) Put Lein QF winner in A, its SF and QF opponents in B.
4) Put Muns QF winner in B, its SF and QF opponents in A.
4) Two remaining Prov SF winners placed opposite their Final & SF opponents.
5) This always produces two groups of 5, with a trio from one
prov merged with a pair from the other.
6) Teams complete a 5-match schedule against all teams in the other group.
7) AI SFs with 1st in A v QF winner (from 2nd in A v 3rd in A);
and 1st in B v QF winner (2nd in B v 3rd in B).
8) The 2 AI QFs and 2 SFs are always 4 non-repeat pairings; while the AI Final will always produce an 'A v B' matchup, the only repeat pairing.
9) This format can be expanded for 2x6, or 2x7 etc.

Another plan that wouldn't be approved anyway !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 17/12/2015 14:17:37    1813339

Yeah it's a bit of a pity. It'd be good to go back and to be able to submit a proposal to your club for discussion on this.

I think there are a lot of interesting potential solutions that could incorporate keeping provincial championships, merging league and championship and can be run of in a time frame of 23 weeks (start of March) to August bank holiday weekend.

Another I've thought of would be to run the following.

First 6 weeks: Provincial championship group stage, Ulster gets London for groups of 5, 1 group for each of Connacht and Munster, 2 Groups for Leinster. Top 2 in each group contest provincial championship playoffs, top 3 qualify for the tier A league section.

Ulster joins with Connacht, 3 from each group plays against the teams from the other 2 groups in their section they haven't already played. Ulster semi finals get incorporated into the game week where the 2 Ulster groups are pairing off.

Ulster and Connacht finals which are repeat match ups get played separate to the league section. Maybe award a bonus point to the winner of each. This section gets played over 10 weeks. A teams fixtures against tier B teams don't county towards their league standings.

Same system works for Leinster plus Munster

Tier B league section:
14 teams drawn. The 2 groups of 6 (Munster and 1 Leinster) provide 3 teams. The 4 groups of 5 each provide 2 teams. The competition is split into 2 sections of 7. The Munster and Leinster group with 3 participants will be in different sections and play 4 matches against the other teams in their section. Teams coming from groups with 2 participants will play 5 matches against teams they haven't already played in their section.

Tier B also run off in 10 weeks including their knockout section.

You can then decide how you want to run the knockout section, but winning the tier 2 competition should get a team re-entry to the All Ireland.

I'd run it with 4 from each of the tier B groups qualifying for the quarter-finals so, as to reduce the number of teams getting eliminated early.

Top 4 from each Tier A section qualifies for knockout round with one of the 4th placed teams playing in a playoff round with the Tier B winner. Depends on which Provinces Tier B winner hails from. Ulster/Connacht vs Munster/Leinster in playoff round.

Pros of the system: merges league with provincial championships. Lots of games for everyone. Tier A teams guaranteed 10 matches, Tier B teams guaranteed 9 matches including an opportunity at the start of the campaign to qualify for the top tier and guaranteed matches against better opposition at the start of the season. Second tier reincorporated into main championship so that it maintains a competition still worth winning and should also be easier to promote.

Even the start of the season is exciting, 12 teams qualify for the right to win their province, whilst another 6 teams qualify to play top tier football. In the top tier teams have only played 2 of their 8 counting matches so even the 3rd places teams in a group still have plenty of time to turn things around.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 17/12/2015 21:16:14    1813401

I have to say to fully get it - I had to read it more than once, but less than 4 times :)
I think it looks pretty good.
A few things - 1) is there a league champ - I see top 4 from 2x9 and 2x7, as going to AI KO ?
2) For variety, every 2nd year, would it be better if Muns or Conn alternate in joining the Uls 2x3 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 19/12/2015 15:43:18    1813596

No league champion, the league is merged with the championship.

I was thinking that by not switching you can create cross provincial rivalries. Dublin play Cork and Kerry in their league every year. Mayo Donegal would be a game every year also. It also cuts down travel times for players and fans.

Tier B groups would be made up of Ulster A, Ulster B and Leinster A (the 6 team Leinster group). The other group being made up of Connacht, Munster and Leinster B.

I would change my suggested knockout format.

So tier B stays the same 4 from each group into quarter finals. They play 3 runs to get the tier B champion. That teams rejoins the All Ireland series.

The All Ireland knockout rounds are made up of the top 5 teams from each group plus the tier B champion.

Byes to quarter finals go to top 2 teams in each section plus the 3 place team in the section producing the tier B champion.

Let's say an Ulster team won tier B
Playoff Round
Match 1: 3rd place team Munster/Leinster v Tier B champion
Match 2: 4th place Munster/Leinster v 5th Ulster/Connacht
Match 3: 4th Place Ulster/Connacht v 5th Munster/Leinster

Quarterfinals:
Q1: 1st Munster/Leinster v winner match 3
Q2: 2nd Ulster/Connacht v winner match 1
Q3: 1st Ulster/Connacht v winner match 2
Q4: 2nd Munster/Leinster v 3rd Ulster/Connacht

Semi finals
Q1 v Q2 and Q3 v Q4

5 from each tier A group qualify for knockout round, makes it more likely the quarters are made up of the top 8 teams. Also you want it to be more difficult to reach the last 8 from tier B than tier A.

I really like how the provincial championships are merged with a league competition which moves on to the All Ireland series. Weaker counties get more provincial championship games plus the get to test themselves against the better teams in their province and at the start of every year have a chance to qualify for tier a. The tier B championship is a meaningful second tier competition, with a Croke park final on a Bank holiday weekend as a curtain raiser to the Leinster final. More matches for the GAA but the games are all mostly meaningful.

70 provincial group games
Further 54 tier A league games
32 tier B league games
7 tier B knockout games
10 All Ireland knockout matches.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 19/12/2015 18:39:04    1813606

And.....I don't know if you intended this, but.....your total matches above of 173 plus the 4 'possible' prov final repeats
makes for a 177-match season. In actual fact, the current provs have 29 matches, qualifiers have 24, AI Series 7 and NFL 112 league and 6 KO games for a total of 178, just one more than yours !
By the way, I think the Uls and Lein prov finals are only 'possible' repeats - only if the finalists are from the same initial prov group (could double up if played in A League).
Your idea is a great season layout and your AI KO allows ample opportunity for UlsConn to play LeinMuns.
Only thing I feel lacking on is - I like elite teams from anywhere to be able to pair off - I take your point re: DoneMayo and KerryDub, but we won't have KerryDone, KerryTyr or KerryMayo before the AI KO - although your KO pairings are well designed now that you expanded to 10+8.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2605 - 20/12/2015 16:30:04    1813675

And.....I don't know if you intended this, but.....your total matches above of 173 plus the 4 'possible' prov final repeats
makes for a 177-match season. In actual fact, the current provs have 29 matches, qualifiers have 24, AI Series 7 and NFL 112 league and 6 KO games for a total of 178, just one more than yours !
By the way, I think the Uls and Lein prov finals are only 'possible' repeats - only if the finalists are from the same initial prov group (could double up if played in A League).
Your idea is a great season layout and your AI KO allows ample opportunity for UlsConn to play LeinMuns.
Only thing I feel lacking on is - I like elite teams from anywhere to be able to pair off - I take your point re: DoneMayo and KerryDub, but we won't have KerryDone, KerryTyr or KerryMayo before the AI KO - although your KO pairings are well designed now that you expanded to 10+8.

omahant (USA) - Posts:683 - 20/12/2015 16:30:04 1813675


Haha yeah got a bit lazy with my counting of the games. Forgot about the provincial finals and the national league playoffs.

Ok so I've got a tweak for you means top teams can play each other before the knockout stages.

I'll try to describe it clearly but I'm not promising it won't get complicated.

So you run off the provincial group section like before. Leinster A and Munster contain 6 teams, the other 4 groups have 5 teams.

Top 2 from each group qualify for their provincial playoffs, semi-finals in Leinster and Ulster, finals in Connacht and Munster. Top team in each group getting home advantage.

Top 3 qualify for Tier A football.

Every team brings forward their provincial group results against Tier A qualified teams so 2 games each that will count to their placing.

They play a further 6 matches. 2 games against a 1st placed team from another group, 2 games vs a 2 placed team and 2 vs a third place team. These 6 matches are to include the Ulster and Leinster semi-finals where a 1st place team plays a second placed team.

A teams games are also spread out across the groups. A team will play 1 team from each of the other groups. Ulster teams play their 6th game against another team from the Ulster group, Same for Leinster, Munster teams play their extra game against a Connacht team.

Top 5 teams after those games qualify for the quarter-finals. 6th-10th playoff being joined by the Tier B champion. (Tier B uses a similar system where teams have 6 matches counting to qualify for their quarterfinals)

An example season:
Ulster A 1 Tyrone 2 Donegal 3 Derry
Ulster B 1 Monaghan 2 Armagh 3 Down
Leinster A 1 Dublin 2 Laois 3 Longford
Leinster B 1 Kildare 2 Meath 3 Westmeath
Munster 1 Kerry 2 Cork 3 Tiperrary
Connacht 1 Mayo 2 Galway 3 Roscommon

A possible 6 game schedule for Tyrone could be H vs Dublin, A vs Cork, H vs Roscommon, A vs Westmeath H vs Armagh (doubling as Ulster semi-final) A vs Down. They play their last 2 games against Ulster teams one of them being their semi-final. Their first 4 games are against 1 team from each of the other 4 groups. They also play 2 teams in each placing 1st, 2nd, 3rd. If they beat Armagh they play an Ulster final against the winner of Monaghan and Donegal. An Ulster final victory counts as a 1 point bonus.

Kerry's season could look like A vs Kildare, H vs Derry, A vs Monaghan, H vs Laois, A vs Roscommon, H vs Galway. Their last 2 games against Connacht teams, first 4 against 1 team from each of the other groups. They then also play a Munster final at home to Cork with a bonus point at stake.

Teams play a different schedule to each other but I don't really see a problem with that when there's a playoff series at the end anyway. It's fine for the US sports leagues and the same in Aussie rules. Teams are ranked according to their results in their 8 tier A games, plus provincial final bonus point. Tier B champion gets seeded 11th for the knockout rounds.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/12/2015 14:05:11    1814053

Tier B works as follows:

Ulster A 4th Cavan 5th London
Ulster B 4th Fermanagh 5 Antrim
Leinster A 4th Louth 5th Wexford 6th Wicklow
Leinster B 4th Offaly 5th Carlow
Munster 4th Limerick 5th Clare 6th Waterford
Connacht 4th Sligo 5th Leitrim

Teams from Munster and Leinster A play 4 more games on top of their 2 games already getting carried forward from the provincial group stage. These 4 games consist of 2 versus 4th placed teams and 2 vs 5th placed teams. 1 team from each of Leinster B, Ulster A, Ulster B and Connacht.

A sample schedule for Limerick would look like: H vs Sligo, A vs Antrim, H vs Cavan, A vs Carlow, their 6 game record also includes their games v Clare and Waterford but not their games versus Kerry, Cork and Tipperary.

Teams from 5 team provincial group only have 1 game carrying forward so they play 5 more games. 1 team from each of the other 5 groups to include 2 games versus 4th place teams, 2 against 5th place teams and 1 game versus a 6th placed team.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/12/2015 14:28:03    1814057