royaldunne
County: Meath
Posts: 8280
1794747
Like 90% of Irish people i don't speak the dead awful language. Its pathetic nonsense gibberish. But that doesn't make us that don't 90% less Irish. It like many other things should be consigned to the history books.
The only reason i voted for enda kennys party at last election was he said he was removing this gibberish as compulsory for leaving cert and that why i will nit vote for him next time. Make it voluntary by all means so those that need to reaffirm their oirishness can have their fill. But for those of us who are secure in our identity we can happily ignore it.
Btw you didn't answer my question as to why you sing the wrong first line to the anthem??

Ah a personal attack, very classy sir. But that's what you do right? You insult people, it's your thing. Anyways, it's kinda embarrassing that I even have to explain myself but I will, given this is a debate about the national anthem that's played at matches, silly me for quoting the first line of the national anthem that's actually played at matches, but I mean, what would I know, being a speaker of that "pathetic nonsense gibberish" of a language and all ~PHS

Pope_has_spoken (Dublin) - Posts: 138 - 02/10/2015 10:10:37    1795021

'RedAndBlack you have the complete wrong end of the stick. You assume one side are worse than the other. That is incorrect. Each is as bad as the other. Union flag isn't a flag of shame at all'

Is that right?

Give us some examples of you experiencing both sides down in clare, rather than churning out the clichés!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 02/10/2015 10:19:47    1795029

'The only reason i voted for enda kennys party at last election'

Quick..... stop the presses!!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 02/10/2015 10:24:52    1795033

It's incredible how sensitive people can get over material items such as anthems and flags that are only around 100 years old give or take a few years when the island of Ireland itself (which I'm far more interested in) is hundreds of millions of years old.......which kinda ironically makes me waaaaaaaaaaaaay more patriotic than these people who only care about our very very recent history :-)

I'm a true Irishman, all you's who love the anthem and flag should be ashamed of yourselves, where's your bloody pride!!!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/10/2015 10:52:00    1795042

A question. How would people feel is for every soccer or rugby game they played, they had to stand to attention for God Save the Queen?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 02/10/2015 10:54:24    1795044

A question. How would people feel is for every soccer or rugby game they played, they had to stand to attention for God Save the Queen?

If they were in Britain, no problem.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 02/10/2015 11:03:04    1795053

I thought about that myself Master and I suppose for consistency sake the GSTQ have to be played, but then there are those who argue that the Chinese invented football so we might have to play their's as well to keep everyone happy.

In fairness though it's a genuinely good point and again for consistency sake those arguing that amhran na bhfiann has to be played before all Gaa games have to agree with you Master otherwise they'll look pretty hypothetical.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 02/10/2015 11:18:52    1795065

I feel as if I should say something here by way of balance in terms of the feeling of Down followers.

Obviously, being from Down & The North, the comments of "MissDownFanatic" and "Redandblack" and others do not at all surprise me, but they do sadden me.

Essentially their arguments boil down to "The Unionists who are way more bigoted than us, so its ok if we are a little bit bigoted, and in any case, they started it.

The reality is Flying the Tri-colour and playing The (RoI) national anthem excludes many people from participating in our games. (Perhaps "MissDownFanatic" and "Redandblack could also join the AOH or similar better pursue the type of agenda away from sport?)

Potentially it is Down GAA would have the most to gain from a more inclusive GAA. Other counties don't realise to extent of Down's proud achievement of winning 5 All Irelands in a county which has such a tiny Nationalist minoroty. North Down, which is one of the most populous and affluent areas in Ireland has just one junior GAA club (St Paul's). East Belfast, which is entirely in County Down has none. Of course I know several clubs were hounded out of existence during the troubles by Loyalists, but imagine the impact on Down GAA if, 50 years from now, there was significant Unionist participation in Gaelic Games.

I also think that would do a lot more for the nationalist cause than singing a particular song in front of a flag. Both things can be easily done elswwhere in a more appropriate environment.

Its 2015 now and inevitably, some time in the next 20 years the GAA will formally cut its links with an undeniable nationalist political past and become purely an, all-inclusive, purely sporting organisation. My view is the GAA's position was entirely valid in a pre-1921 in RoI and a pre-1995 in Northern Ireland. However history moves on and the GAA will suffer if it doesn't also adapt. We now have to look forward and change in order to realise a modern, inclusive, Ireland.

Put simply, we can't complain about The Orange Order etc. unless we entirely clean up our own act, not 95%, but 100%.

Fair play to Jarleth Burns I'd say, as these type of comments aren't going to make him very popular around his South Armagh home.

The type of changes he is calling for obviously aren't going to happen immediately, however I'd see him as very courageous man, and a trailblazer for general opinion, which will inevitably catch up with his (and many others) at some point in the future.

spiritof1991 (Down) - Posts: 693 - 02/10/2015 11:32:05    1795076

Ive yet to see anyone mention playing amhrann na bhfiann before every game.

In Antrim anyway, it is played before club championship games and county national league games.

Contrary to what some seem to be implying it isn't played before every u12 league game

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 02/10/2015 11:33:08    1795077

TheMaster
County: Mayo

A question. How would people feel is for every soccer or rugby game they played, they had to stand to attention for God Save the Queen?

I have been to a few Ulster rugby matches and have no problem adhering to their "protocol" albeit with a wry smile, because there are two communities in Ulster with different cultures. One is British and the other is Irish and both communities cultural heritage need to be respected (do we really need to revisit the good Friday agreement). I would not expect anyone to give up their anthem for me especially when that anthem covers another area outside Ulster as well. Imagine asking the rest of the UK to drop GSTQ before soccer or rugby games to appease Ulster nationalists. This is essentially what Burns is suggesting we do because you can't just not play the anthem in Ulster, that would be discrimination (the root cause of the troubles to begin with). Whether Burns or others like it or not it is rather insulting

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 02/10/2015 11:37:07    1795079

Fair post spirit of 1991, I would agree with most of what you have said i.e its ok to hate that crowd over there because they hate us more, its such a stupid argument. Although looking at all the posts on this thread from people who supposedly share a common love of a sport, gaelic games, its depressing how widely the attitudes differ and how we seem pre - programmed to pick the differences and fight about it from name calling, Nordies, Culchies etc, to denigrating a culture and language, to burying your head in the sand and refusing to believe that things move on.

It would depress me to my core to think that my kids and grandkids in the future would have to put up with what we are complaining about as a terrible way to live, just because my contempories and I could get our heads out of our backside for long enough to discuss an item, someone has to make the first step and it wont be an easy one but unless someone makes it we'll be living with this civil war mentality for generations to come. As I mentioned Burns merely raised a point he did not propose doing anything and the vitriol and ascerbic nature of some of the posts shows how far we have to go because the thought of having the discussion is so abhorrent to certain people, I'd say they should go away and play with themselves on their space hoppers with their flared trousers and tank tops unless they'd like to come and join us in 2015, its not great but its a whole lot better than the era they hark back to.

If you dont learn the lessons of the past you are doomed to repeat them, who in their right mind wants that.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 02/10/2015 11:51:54    1795090

How would people feel is for every soccer or rugby game they played, they had to stand to attention for God Save the Queen?

Been there, done it, went back. Didn't campaign for it to be removed.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 02/10/2015 11:54:32    1795094

Spirit of 1991,no harm to you, but if you really think a significant
proportion of the Unionist population will ever want to play Gaelic
Games, flag or no flag, anthem or no anthem you are deluded.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1618 - 02/10/2015 11:57:00    1795096

As I mentioned Burns merely raised a point he did not propose doing anything and the vitriol and ascerbic nature of some of the posts shows how far we have to go because the thought of having the discussion is so abhorrent to certain people, I'd say they should go away and play with themselves on their space hoppers with their flared trousers and tank tops unless they'd like to come and join us in 2015, its not great but its a whole lot better than the era they hark back to.

See the bit underlined, then you mention flared trousers, tank tops and space hoppers.

Seems to make you pretty vitriolic yourself if you don't respect the views of others?

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 02/10/2015 11:59:34    1795099

Spirit of 1991,no harm to you, but if you really think a significant proportion of the Unionist population will ever want to play Gaelic Games, flag or no flag, anthem or no anthem you are deluded.

it is not just that. I spoke to some people at work & in social circles over the last 48 hours about this. Some see no harm in removing either but not for the reasons of attracting people Jarlath Burns mentions. Many older people I spoke to were not impressed by the idea. I spoke to about 13/14 so it is not any measure of public feeling, but I do think people would walk away from the GAA if these proposals took hold.

I know I would.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 02/10/2015 12:08:17    1795106

How would people feel is for every soccer or rugby game they played, they had to stand to attention for God Save the Queen?

It's up to each individual to make the choice. I've been to Wembley a few times and never stood once for it. That won't change in the future either but I wouldn't run off and start a social media campaign to get it shelved, either.

MedwayIrish (Wexford) - Posts: 2324 - 02/10/2015 12:09:23    1795107

Fair enough Slayer, you've got me there. Tongue in cheek attempt at saying I think the views some people are expressing hark back to some very bad old days but as you say its their right to have said opinion, but can posters be surprised when other nationalities, religions, cultures etc have equally strident views on GAA rightly or wrongly. Personally though I cannot understand why the thought of having the discussion is the stumbling block as that seems to be the general gist, the likelihood is it wont stand a cat in hells chance of going through but what is the harm in talking about it.

20 years ago the thought of foreign sports in Croke Park would have elicited a similarly strong viewpoint yet that rule went by the wayside and the association was advertised to a wider audience and the monies generated go back into grassroots so the argument would be something that was a bitter pill to swallow could end up actually benefiting the association.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 02/10/2015 12:40:03    1795129

Fair play to Jarlath Burns, its a progressive idea for reconciliation. He also acknowledges that it will never happen in the GAA which is probably true.

cavan97 (Cavan) - Posts: 369 - 02/10/2015 12:56:35    1795142

"Redandblack" - Maybe you think everyone else who has a different viewpoint is stupid?

I grew up in the same environment you did and so it goes without saying I do not expect miracles overnight. I am taking about challenging predjudice and taking the all important first step in changing attitudes. (I also mentioned a timeframe of 50 years).

In answering your post I would like to draw your attention to the following article about Down All Ireland medalist Peter Withnall;

One thing we will both agree about is that we could be doing with a Withnall to wear the Red and Black at present

HE was 21 before he made his senior debut with Down and just 28 when he called time on his inter-county career but Peter Withnell squeezed all he could from his playing days.

In one memorable four-week period in Croke Park in 1991, he terrorised Tom Spillane inthe Kerry defence and went toe to toe with big, bad Mick Lyons. But his is a career that can't simply be shoehorned into one summer, or even one code.

As a Protestant growing up in the village of Drumaness, soccer was his first love. Withnell simply never thought about trying his hand at Gaelic football until he was persuaded to give it a go by some friends one day when he was 16.

It worked out well for all concerned

spiritof1991 (Down) - Posts: 693 - 02/10/2015 13:12:14    1795156

Personally though I cannot understand why the thought of having the discussion is the stumbling block as that seems to be the general gist, the likelihood is it wont stand a cat in hells chance of going through but what is the harm in talking about it.

I have no problem with the discussion. I think many people here who are in favour of exploring the removal of flag and anthem have put forward reasoned arguments that are thought provoking. That said, some not in favour have also done likewise. I would be likely to lose interest if both were removed now, but if I thought for one second that for example, my son would benefit from both changes then I'd be open to the idea. To me it is difficult to accept that you need to lose part of yourself to make others more comfortable. I do accept though that people here have pointed out that they don't see the flag & anthem as part of themselves.

20 years ago the thought of foreign sports in Croke Park would have elicited a similarly strong viewpoint yet that rule went by the wayside and the association was advertised to a wider audience and the monies generated go back into grassroots so the argument would be something that was a bitter pill to swallow could end up actually benefiting the association.

True, but 20 years ago we were still coming to terms with the fallout from the Ireland v England soccer match in Landsdowne Road. That, plus a peace process in its infancy made such an idea seem impossible. What happened was that all sides in the North made progress, altered their thinking and made extremely tough decisions to move forward. In doing so, hardliners were lost on both sides. As time marched on, the hardliners were told their way of thinking was of yesteryear. Similar is happening on this thread.

I had a big issue with Croker being opened but not for reasons of Irish people having been murdered there. In my opinion every other ground bar Croker could/should have been opened. What's wrong with Rugby/Soccer in the Gaelic Grounds, Pairc Ui Chaoimh, Thurles? Instead, something that seemed semi political became about cash, which often trumps all political/sports thinking.

The difference I see with the flag/athem now are what gains will be brought? I still haven't heard a convincing reason for opting out of both only that members of some communities may join GAA clubs in Northern Ireland. Again, how will that make the association better for the majority? Will there be any benefit to clubs from Limerick? I doubt it & I think it would water down what the games mean to people in my county. Even thinking of no anthem before a Munster Championship match makes me think of something mechanical, less interesting.

I am yet to be shown any tangible benefits to Jarlath Burns' idea. It seems to be all based on something that 'might' happen right now.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 02/10/2015 13:18:08    1795162