slayer

However I wonder if this was trialled for 2 years in the Ulster Championship, would we see an increased participation in GAA by the Unioninst community?

I very much doubt there would be any significant increase, certainly not in the short term anyway, but then again sadly many Unionists are thought to hate all things Irish from birth, they're given no chance by their prejudice parents so the Irish anthem and flag aren't really the problem here.

But again just to clarify for anybody else reading, I don't want rid if the anthem (never mind the flag, I hardly ever notice that at matches) simply because I find it unnecessary at every single intercounty game and I've been a fan patriotism anyway. Just keep the anthem for provincial and All-Ireland finals, it'll add to the sense if occasion then.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/09/2015 15:02:15    1794288

Thomas Clarke
County: Tyrone
Posts: 842

1794099 redhanddefender
County: Tyrone
Posts: 748

a tolerant society recognises what symbols and signs intimidate your neighbour! Its not panbdering to the hard line unionist community who will never change.

I am talking about the average joe protestant in ulster. If taking down a flag and stopping an anthem helps welcome them into the fold then surely as a tolerant people we should do it.

It is not enough to say, sure they won't do this or they won't do that we have to as the GAA has on many occasions take the first stap!
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I agree with this. This is not about encouraging Gregory Campbell to pick up a hurl, as people like him are as likely to be seen at a GAA game as dissident Republicans are at a hockey match. It's about reaching out to middle-of-the-road protestants. There are many of those who have a strong interest in the GAA and regular watch televised matches, but they would run the risk of intimidation from their own side if they decided to participate. Would the removal of the flag/anthem or certain club names help in that regard? I think it would, and would therefore be supportive of the change (I could even be persuaded to change my own username here!).

Some people are talking about the beliefs of our founding fathers, but we are being selective when it comes to maintaining that heritage. Which of us, in 2015, would support Thomas Croke's rule that anyone playing 'foreign' sports should be banned from the GAA? Time moves on, and I don't think that we need to be so insular and protective of our Irishness than when we were being discriminated against by Britain. Tradition is important, but I'd never want to be a slave to it.

As for Jarlath Burns, it's very easy for people to accuse him of saying something he doesn't believe in order to become GAA President but, as others have pointed out, I don't see how a clearly unpopular course of action would help him in that cause anyway. Also, Jarlath strikes me as his own man. He recently led some of his schoolchildren on an LGBT rights march, something that most catholic headteachers in the North would be terrified to do, for fear of annoying conservative parents. None of us know Jarlath well enough to know what he really believes, therefore I'm inclined to take his sincerity at his word.


Exactly right. This idea of well unionists would do this and that and whatever else, therefore we have to act in such a manner, is actually completely flawed. Surely that is just a race to the bottom where in the end, nobody wins?

Forget the bigoted factions of both sides, they aren't going to get involved anyway. How about working towards including the reasonable people from both sides, and leaving the others behind.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 30/09/2015 15:03:59    1794290

Slayer, your point about the removing the hurly is a silly one, and you aren't comparing like with like.

OK I have threatened your argument enough for you to call my point silly :-) Good!

As you say, the hurly may well be the unofficial symbol of the GAA, and obviously nobody reasonable would ever advocate removing it. That is very different to a flag and an anthem, both of which are political emblems that are used by the association but, let's be honest, not essential to the actual playing of our games.

As discussed earlier in the thread, if you enter certain communities with (a) a GAA top, (b) a hurley (c) the tricoulor how will that community react? I think all three would be seen in exactly the same manner. So removing two out of those three to make the Association seem more tolerable to communities still leaves that one symbol, the hurley, that will still be seen as a link to the past or whatever people choose to associate it with.

I think the problem Burns is referring to is how the Unionist community sees the GAA & Irishness, not how the GAA uses flags or Anthems.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 30/09/2015 15:05:17    1794291

Being inclusive is a two way process and I'd prefer to see Gaelic games being accepted more by other communities before any flags or anthems are altered.

I agree fully, but this will create a stand-off - now it's a case of who "is the bigger man", and makes the first move.

Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 30/09/2015 15:12:29    1794298

National anthem.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1618 - 30/09/2015 15:12:55    1794299

Thomas Clarke you are misguided if you think there would be an influx
of Unionists playing the game.The few that do are welcome if they
respect the flag and anthem.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1618 - 30/09/2015 15:24:14    1794311

Htaem,

"the rugby team is an example of how to behave and I've always found it hilarious when nationalists complain about a United Ireland rugby team, when they're supposed to be all for a United Ireland, it's a highly contradictory position :-)"

I've never met any of these types!

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 30/09/2015 15:29:32    1794316

slayer
County: Limerick
Posts: 5646

As discussed earlier in the thread, if you enter certain communities with (a) a GAA top, (b) a hurley (c) the tricoulor how will that community react? I think all three would be seen in exactly the same manner. So removing two out of those three to make the Association seem more tolerable to communities still leaves that one symbol, the hurley, that will still be seen as a link to the past or whatever people choose to associate it with.
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OK, maybe this will clarify. The hurley may be seen by some people in deeply entrenched communities as a political symbol, but it is not. It is a piece of sporting equipment. No middle-ground protestant in the north would object in any way to seeing someone holding one for sport.

The irish national flag and the irish national anthem are political symbols. Symbols which, in the north of ireland, are not commonly seen as welcoming towards unionists/protestants. That is the difference.

Again, I'm not talking about attracting the hardliners from loyalist estates, but am instead talking about a gesture that may eventually see more young, open-minded protestants view gaelic games as a sport of choice, and one that they can play in an inclusive environment without feeling self-conscious about their political beliefs.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 30/09/2015 15:30:27    1794317

So you have to respect the Irish Tricolour and National Anthem in order to be allowed to play Gaelic Football or Hurling? Fair enough.

Would you apply this same requirement to a Football or Hurling match played in Belgium or in Dubai? Should these games be played under an Irish flag, and preceded by the Irish National Anthem? Maybe you would, I'm not sure - but that's madness.

The more I consider the original point, the more apparent it becomes that we need to separate our National sports from nationalist trappings.

We should fly the flag over, and play the anthem before sporting events of national importance - but only because they are of events national importance.

The idea of the flag and the anthem as a default to playing the game, is simply nonsense.

Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 30/09/2015 15:46:36    1794332

Again, I'm not talking about attracting the hardliners from loyalist estates, but am instead talking about a gesture that may eventually see more young, open-minded protestants view gaelic games as a sport of choice, and one that they can play in an inclusive environment without feeling self-conscious about their political beliefs.

Exactly right. It isn't about bending over backwards to suit certain people. It is about de-politicising a sport, and I don't see how that can ever be a bad thing.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 30/09/2015 15:50:27    1794336

I'd never thought the day would come Master, but here goes - You are exactly right. (Off I go to wash the mouth out with Coddle).

Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 30/09/2015 16:03:46    1794344

Jaden the GAA was founded in order to create
and reaffirm Irish identity and culture.Those that
want the symbols of this identiy removed obviously
dont value their Irishness.This is their right and
prerogative but not at the expense of those that
do value these symbols.As such they should stay.

It is especially nonsensical to remove symbols tha
would have no effect on the number of Unionists
playing the sport and would be perceived as a great
victory by Unionism.

REDANDBLACK30 (Down) - Posts: 1618 - 30/09/2015 16:06:59    1794346

Considering I have never seen you before Jaden, I can only assume you are an ex-poster. Realdub maybe?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 30/09/2015 16:24:59    1794349

REDANDBLACK30

I agree with the rugby team being a United Ireland team with the Irish
National anthem.

Ye but that's not compromise REDANDBACK, that's compromise.......on my terms.

You are missing the point Htaem.I just dont want Unionists to be
allowed to differentiate themselves because if they are allowed to
then they will never see sense and be reconciled with Irish Nationalists.

......And they would say the same about Irish nationalists, but anyway come on, people have to be allowed to differentiate themselves if they want to, we don't live in a dictatorship, people have choices. That's the key point though, people should make THEIR own choices/opinions, NOT the ingrained choices/opinions of their parents.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/09/2015 16:25:39    1794350

Look the arguments here are getting daft, because of tradition and all that, my family name is actually Norman so technically the tricolour is the wrong colour for me and I should be thumping a sliothar with a baguette, does it make a difference nope not a bit. The tradition people are harking back to is actually a very specific moment in time and believe it or not a country did exist prior to the formation of the GAA and a lot of this rubbish. Yes it is a bone of contention for some people re the flag/anthem but as I said there was little issue dropping the drawers for the Aussies and we get told that experiment is to widen the appeal of the game. Same with Sky, widening the appeal of the game so why do we dare not consider widening the appeal to people that actually share the island with us or is it more convenient to keep things segregated and ensure we have the same stupid arguments a couple of generations down the line.

duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 30/09/2015 16:26:21    1794352

keeper7

I've never met any of these types!

No? Jaysus fairplay lad.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 30/09/2015 16:30:14    1794354

Jaden the GAA was founded in order to create
and reaffirm Irish identity and culture.Those that
want the symbols of this identiy removed obviously
dont value their Irishness.This is their right and
prerogative but not at the expense of those that
do value these symbols.As such they should stay.

It is especially nonsensical to remove symbols tha
would have no effect on the number of Unionists
playing the sport and would be perceived as a great
victory by Unionism.

Wow.... Just... wow... So much wrong, in so few words.

And here was me thinking that the GAA was here to promote Gaelic Games.
From now on, all players will be wrapped in tricolours, may only speak in Irish during the course of a game, and must present a valid passport before throw in.

Ulster Says No! (And that's the way they like it).

@Master - Long time lurker, recent poster. For better or for worse, I've read alot of your posts.

Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 30/09/2015 16:47:05    1794364

This goes way beyond just sport. If we are mad enough to go with this suggestion then what next? Why not return to the commonwealth to please the same bunch. The gaa is the last bastion of identity in a country where lads now refer to man utd or Chelsea, two clubs with an anti-irish heritage, as us! A country where 90000 people accept the banishment of their anthem on the world stage and then delight in using the names of Collins and Pearse, two men who fought for said anthem and what it represents, to mock the British all the while claiming the badge of the world's greatest supporters. No other nation would even consider this. Why is it even been discussed?

sceptical (Cavan) - Posts: 544 - 30/09/2015 16:57:17    1794370

Ormond
Because simply a flag and anthem isn't enough. Attitudes in many clubs is against in one form or another.... sure how many clubs have a mass before their AGM etc?????
There is bigots on both sides of the divide.

I'm sorry but I couldn't make much sense of that, maybe you could rephrase or something. But I agree with the last bit of course there are bigots on both sides

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 30/09/2015 17:19:13    1794378

To be honest, I'm not sure the anthem needs to be played before every game. I've been at league games in February, and a hideous beat up version of the anthem is played on what's sounds like an eight track player from 1981, before a small passive crowd. Apart from being possibly unnecessary, its actually disrespectful to the anthem. And I have to admit, whenever I'm watching a game in a bar in the U.S., and everyone makes a big deal about standing for the anthem, I cringe a bit. Because the same people would spend 90% of their time talking about what a dump Ireland is, and how they're glad to be away from it. Respecting the anthem is pointless if you don't respect the country. In any case, there might be an argument for restricting the anthem to bigger games. But I understand why people would want it at all games.

Just one thing. Whether people like it or not, there is a country, and a State, called Ireland. Its an independent state like Portugal, Finland, Chile etc (cue the redundant jokes about being owned by Germany). Countries/nations/states/nation states, whatever you want to call them, have certain trappings of statehood, flags, anthems etc. The triclolor and Amhrann na bhFiann are the official flag and anthem of the Irish state, so they do represent citizens of Ireland. If people would like to change both the flag and anthem, fair enough, but whatever they replace them with will still represent the same thing. They'll still be the official flag and anthem of the State. If people are offended by them, they're really offended by the idea of an Irish state, because that's what these things represent. People need to get over that, because the Irish State is just a reality, for better or worse. And that applies to everyone, not just Ulster Unionists.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 30/09/2015 17:29:17    1794386