If I were doing a group stage type format I would tier it but still allow entry back into the All-Ireland for the second tier.

1st tier 5 groups of 4, provincial finalist plus 12 more decided by league placing. Top team in each group through to quarters, 2nd place team into playoff. I'd seed the provincial champions and next best placed league team.
2nd tier 3 groups of 4, remaining 12 teams. Group winners plus best runners up into semi-final. Tier 2 winner joins the 5 tier 1 runners up in the playoff. 3 winners advance to quarters.

The seedings would look as follows
Tier 1
Pot A Monaghan, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Cork
Pot B Donegal, Down, Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry
Pot C Meath, Galway, Cavan, Laois, Fermanagh
Pot D Armagh, Westmeath, Kildare, Tipperary, Sligo

Tier 2
Pot A Clare, Limerick, Longford
Pot B Offaly, Louth, Wexford
Pot C Antrim, Leitrim, Carlow
Pot D Waterford, Wicklow, London

Tier 2 starts during provincial finals, 2 weeks before tier 1 to allow it to finish at the same time as the tier 1 group stage.

Fewer mismatches in tier 1, tier 2 counties are in a meaningful competition with the realistic prize of getting into the last 11 of the championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/10/2015 19:51:04    1798176

We could move from current 7 league matches and minimum 2 in the championship - to 5 in the league (mostly groups of 6) and the 3-match group minimum above.
NFL could be 12-12-8 (2x6, 2x6, 2x4 with 2 crossover games), with an AvB final in the 3 divs. There is no need to increase the schedule.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 12/10/2015 20:10:01    1798181

Just reading up on the great Matt Connor after watching a programme on TG4, a quote from him from Hogan Stand on the 22nd March 1991,

Asked if there was anything he would like to add to the interview Matt expressed the opinion that he would like to see the open draw tried in the thirty two counties. "It would be the best chance for the weaker teams to make it and improve," he says. "A lot of teams don't put in any effort when they know who they're up against in the draw," a fact which keeps the poorer sides down, he feels.[/I]

amazing to think it's still the same old championship structure all these years later.

Another streamlined non-group idea, that gives all a minimum 3 matches before KO AI Last 16 -
1) Play existing format to Prov SF 16 and 1st Rd Qual 16.
2) Prov SF 16 - play 2 KO rds - 4 prov champs to AI Last 16; Other 12 to host Qual Rd 3.
3) 1st Rd Qual 16 - 8 winners away in Rd 3; 8 losers get 3rd chance in Rd 2, 4 Rd 2 winners also away in Rd 3.
4) 12 Rd 3 winners join 4 prov champs in AI Rd of 16.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 12/10/2015 21:46:54    1798216

amazing to think it's still the same old championship structure all these years later.

When the open draw came into the Munster championship in 1991 there was great excitement as it would no longer mean an automatic Cork v Kerry final. Limerick were the lucky ones that year, pushing Kerry all the way in a 0-23 to 3-12 defeat. The year after Clare benefited by winning the Munster title on a 2-8 to 0-12 scoreline over Kerry. Clare were not disgraced either in the All-Ireland semi final, losing 3-14 to 2-12 to the Dubs.

It's simple - open draw should give more sides a chance to go further.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 13/10/2015 08:12:50    1798223

Apologies for bringing this up again. Got a new idea for football restructuring.

Get rid of National League

Replace with Provincial leagues. Ulster (plus London), Leinster as is, Munster/Connacht combined league. So 10 team Ulster league and the other 2 are 11 team leagues.

The provincial leagues determine qualifiers to provincial playoff rounds Top 4 to semi-finals in Ulster and Leinster, top 2 in the combined league from each Province play in their Provincial final.

The leagues also determine entry into the All-Ireland series.

2 tiers: Sam Maguire tier 20 teams in 5 groups of 4. Tier 2 Tommy Murphy Cup tier 3 groups of 4.

Qualification works as follows:16 teams get entry straight from their provincial league. Top 5 in Ulster and Leinster. Top 6 from Connacht/Munster. 8 teams enter playoffs for the 4 remaining places. 3 each from Ulster and Connacht/Munster, 2 from Leinster. 8 teams go straight into Tommy Murphy cup. 2 From Ulster, 3 from Leinster and 3 from Connacht/Munster.

Tommy Murphy Cup can start during Provincial playoffs. Winner of Tommy Murphy cup gets entry back into the knockout rounds of the Sam Maguire.

5 Sam Maguire cup group winners straight into quarter finals. 5 Sam Maguire cup group runners-up go into playoff round along with Tommy Murphy cup winner.

Season structure Provincial leagues take 13 weeks consecutive weeks to complete played in March, April and May. In Leinster 11 weeks to run off league plus 2 weeks for semi-final and final. In Connacht 11 weeks to run off league stage, break week, provincial finals. Ulster teams get a few more break weeks at 10 team league can be run off over 9 weeks so they get 2 break weeks. Then 2 weeks for semi-final and final.

Sam Maguire group stage starts 2nd week of June (Tommy Murphy has already played 2 rounds so it can catch up). Group stage finished by the end of June.

Playoff round played 2nd week of July, quarter final the week after. Semi-finals get played August bank holiday weekend, final 2 weeks later. Club championships gets played then after.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 17/10/2015 12:49:09    1799621

Why I like this system.

League system being regionalised cuts down travelling during the season.

Weaker counties get to play against stronger teams more often, but the games are played earlier in the year, they get opportunities to test themselves against better opposition without the height of the season being bogged down by nothing matches.

Every team has something to play for during the league stages. Top teams are aiming to make provincial playoffs, next tier are looking for an Automatic Sam Maguire cup place, weaker counties are aiming for a place in the playoffs.

Early round of the season are probably very boring but at least these are at the start of the season and still most of the games have something to offer, given the provincial rivalries. I think the Munster Connacht league could be particularly interesting.

The climax of the league could get really exciting as the different placings get decided. The Ulster championship contains 8 games not counting replays, an Ulster league with everything to play for with 3 weeks to go will provide 15 league games followed by the provincial semi-finals. I think the provincial councils could be licking their lips at that. I also think the Connacht/Munster league is great for both provinces. Their championships are currently not exciting at all with Cork and Kerry being so far ahead in Munster and Mayo being clearly top dogs in Connacht. Topping that league could bring prestige in itself even before the provincial finals. Leinster is probably still rubbish. I mean what can you do with that until Meath/Kildare or some other county improves to challenge Dublin. It probably isn't a great change for Meath or Kildare where the National League is a pretty important competition for them. At least they get a relatively easy passage to the Sam Maguire group stage where they get 3 games to test themselves against teams around their level.

I think the Sam Maguire cup games would mostly all be exciting with there being an incentive to top the group over the second placed teams who have to play an extra round before the quarters.

Tommy Murphy cup would run with group winners plus best placed runners up qualifying for semis. Tommy Murphy cup stays meaningful with the winner getting a place in the knock-out stages of the All-Ireland. The weaker teams have games against teams around their level during the height of the season.

Season only starts in March and is over by Mid-August. The games do come think and fast but early in the season teams can rotate players during the provincial league, the top teams can try out squad players versus the weaker counties in their league. In Ulster where there are fewer weak teams the teams have an extra rest week at least playing 9 games in 11 weeks, instead of 10 games in 11 weeks.

Fixture list can be decided long before the season starts giving fans and management teams time to plan their schedules.

I also think it is a relatively straight forward system that has a nice flow to the season. Provincial season followed by National season. Teams are guaranteed a lot of games with the more important games coming later in the season. Even during the provincial league season there should be a couple of good matches every weekend that might be interesting for TV.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 17/10/2015 13:04:36    1799623

Qualification works as follows:16 teams get entry straight from their provincial league. Top 5 in Ulster and Leinster. Top 6 from Connacht/Munster. 8 teams enter playoffs for the 4 remaining places. 3 each from Ulster and Connacht/Munster, 2 from Leinster. 8 teams go straight into Tommy Murphy cup. 2 From Ulster, 3 from Leinster and 3 from Connacht/Munster.

Made a mistake here should be:

Qualification works as follows:16 teams get entry straight from their provincial league. Top 5 in Ulster and Leinster. Top 6 from Connacht/Munster. 8 teams enter playoffs for the 4 remaining places. 3 each from Ulster and LEINSTER, 2 from CONNACHT/MUNSTER. 8 teams go straight into Tommy Murphy cup. 2 From Ulster, 3 from Leinster and 3 from Connacht/Munster.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 17/10/2015 13:37:25    1799629

To Whammo86 - good stuff, there. To further avoid one-sided matches, I'd split the provs into 2 tiers as well - best 2 in top tiers to prov finals, best in lower tiers to AI Playoff, and possibly 1 up/1 down.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 17/10/2015 17:23:15    1799656

Most likely, themes from 3 public plans will be considered for change - plans from Carlow, JMcG/Kelly and GPA.
I like aspects (but none in full) of all 3 - provs determining next year AI seeding; linking league and provs for seed; and all guaranteed a 3-match minimum.
How would I blend these together ?
Teams guaranteed 1 prov match and 2 in AI Series.
Teams seeded based on NFL division, with prior year prov champs going to front of the line.
In the AI, 4th seeds host 3rd seeds and 2 seeds host 1st seeds, 16 winners to AI Min Stream, the 16 losers play for final 8 Main Streams rout. The 8 double losers, get 3rd chance in Back Door Stream. So, the 24 Main Stream play 3 KO rds to get 3 to AI QFs. Losers of 12, 5, 3 go to Back Door Stream Rds 2, 3, 4 with team quantities of 16, 15, 10. 5 Rd 4 winners to AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 17/10/2015 18:00:54    1799659

To Whammo86 - good stuff, there. To further avoid one-sided matches, I'd split the provs into 2 tiers as well - best 2 in top tiers to prov finals, best in lower tiers to AI Playoff, and possibly 1 up/1 down.

@Omahant

I did think about this also. A few thing put me off mainly to do with making Munster/Connacht a little bit complicated. Say there are 6 in the top tier of this league but say only Cork and Kerry then the Munster final is already decided for that year. In Ulster it wouldn't be ideal either as probably about 8 of the teams now would have aspirations of winning Ulster.

I'm not that worried about one-sided matches in this system. They'll just be low profile, whilst there are still other big games to look forward to. Most of the Ulster league games will be competitive. The Munster/Connacht league could be very good with games between Mayo, Galway, Cork and Kerry could get even better if Roscommon and Tipp continue their emergence.

I'd also use the provincial league to seed the Sam Maguire cup. Each group gets 1 team from each league in their top 3 seeds. With the Munster/Connacht 6th team and the playoff winners being 4 seeds in their groups.

Every league place matters. I also think that seeding structure makes it more fair, if one of the leagues is weaker then their teams will have a tougher draw in the group stage as they're guaranteed to play at least 1 team from each of the other 2 leagues.

The playoff round would also be seeded with teams guaranteed not to play someone from their own league.

I like the playoff round, means a particularly strong league has a chance to get up to 8 teams in to the Sam Maguire championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 17/10/2015 18:42:04    1799668

The length of time between Championship games is a big problem at the minute, especially since Club Championship games are put on hold in many Counties and these huge gaps still persist in a way that was probably designed to allow Club Championship games to proceed.
So teams have about 3 or 4 weeks to study up the opposition, and analyse tactics to death.

There should be no more than 2 weeks between Championship games

Shidoshi (Donegal) - Posts: 85 - 17/10/2015 20:19:12    1799687

Well thought through, Whammo86.

I had a few typo errors in the recent email with a lowering battery !
I prefer to say - along with a change -
8 4th seeds host 8 3rd seeds in a Playoff Rd (but say, 8 winners join 8 2nd and 8 1st seed-byes in the 24-team front door AI Rd 1).
8 Playoff Rd losers to 8-team 1st Qualifier Rd.
The 24 play 3 KO rds - get 3 front door teams to AI QFs (Rd of 24 has 8 Playoff winners host 8 1st seeds, and 8 2nd seeds pair up).
Losers of 12, 6, 3 get 2nd AI chance (3 game min in all with prov) entry to Qual Rds 2, 3, 4, respectively.
Qual rds 1, 2, 3, 4 have team quantities of 8, 16, 14, 10, respectively.
5 Rd 4 winners to AI QFs.

So my AI KO is like the AI Carlow plan with 4 prov champs seeded 1 the next year, with the Qualifiers
added to give 3-match GPA minimum, and 2nd seeds is JMcG/Kelly NFL based.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 17/10/2015 21:13:05    1799700