So the GPA are proposing the champions league format 8 x 4 groups, seedings based on league and provincial. Have to say I'm disappointed with them, no great imagination there!

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 01/10/2015 15:53:22    1794796

sligoNo1

Based on last years league finishes my proposal would have sligo in a 6 team group (either 2A or 2B) with 5 teams drawn from the following:

Cavan, Laois, Westmeath, Kildare, Fermanagh, Armagh, Tipperary, Sligo, Clare, Limerick, Longford, Offaly.

Under my system the league groups would go something like:

Div 1 A
Cork, Monaghan, Mayo, Tyrone, Down, Meath

Div 1 B
Dublin, Donegal, Kerry, Derry, Roscommon, Galway

Div 2A
Cavan, Westmeath, Fermanagh, Tipperary, Clare, Longford

Div 2B
Laois, Kildare, Armagh, Sligo, Limerick, Offaly

Div 3
Louth, Wexford, Antrim, Leitrim, Carlow, Waterford, London, Wicklow

Does that not give everyone tough games at their own level. If Sligo finished in the top 2 of their group they could be playing in a group v Dublin or Mayo the following year and automatic entry to Tier 1 championship the following year.

Lets say all the teams above finished as per their groups with the top 2 going up from 2A and 2B and the top 4 in div 3 getting promoted.
THe new championship draw would be as follows

Tier 1: Cork, Monaghan, Mayo, Tyrone, Down, Meath, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry, Derry, Roscommon, Galway, Laois, Kildare, Cavan, Westmeath with an open draw except the provinical champs seeded apart (Mayo, Dublin, Kerry, Donegal) - top 4 to all areland qfinals and next 5 into tier one play offs
Tier 2: Fermanagh, Tipperary, Armagh, Sligo, Louth, Wexford, Antrim, Leitrim - 2 groups open draw with top 2 getting into tier one play offs.
Tier 3: Clare, Longford, Limerick, Offaly, Carlow, Waterford, London, Wicklow - 2 groups winners play off with winner getting into tier one play off

Total minimum games for season for sligo = 5 league, 1 connaught, 3 Tier 2 matches, 4 FBD league = 13.
Current system = 7 league, 1 connaught, 1 qualifiers = 9 ( shorter intercounty season meaning more room for club matches)

Difference here is every game counts in league, more games against similar opposition in championship. A good season will have a few extra matches against higher level opponents and a bad league will give and easier championship and a chance to regroup.


As for the GPA proposal - no imagination and likely to see a group of Dublin, Carlow, Sligo, Derry with 2 teams to progress. Resulting in only one match that would be worth watching (Derry v Sligo at a push).

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 01/10/2015 17:09:33    1794845

In that group example - Carlow loses all 3 matches, with other 3 teams going thru to KO 24 automatically -
matches between these 3 are essentially irrelevant, apart from deciding bye team to AI Last 16

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 03/10/2015 20:45:56    1795542

Getting rid of the National League finals would be a starter for any restructuring.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 04/10/2015 12:47:32    1795607

Improving The County Football Championship

Most people agree that the senior county football championship requires a revamp to stimulate interest and promote competitiveness. At the same time it is crucial to retain the creditability of the provincial championships. The following proposals would revamp the All-Ireland series and also enhance the provincial competitions.
1 The losers of the preliminary round of the Ulster Championship go into the Connaught Championship
2 Play three preliminary games in the Leinster Championship; then two of the losers would go into the Munster Championship making a total of eight teams.
3 One of the Leinster losers would go into Connaught which including London would make this province up to eight teams.There would also be eight teams left in Leinster and Ulster.
4 An open draw for the preliminaries and also for the initial round of the provincials with the first team out of the hat having home advantage. Thus the loser of the Ulster preliminary might have to travel to Mayo or Roscommon or vice versa. Kerry or Cork may have to travel to Meath or Kildare or even to Dublin should the latter lose a preliminary match.
5 All-Ireland qualifiers to proceed as at present.

The merit of these proposals would be that every county would continue to participate in their own province with the early losers in Leinster and Ulster getting a crack at the Connaught or Munster Championship. It is difficult to visualise any objections from Ulster or Leinster. Some counties in Munster or Connaught might be wary of having to travel to another province for the first round of their own competition. Perhaps they might initially be given a home venue to help such a programme to get off the ground. However, surely the greater good should prevail and the future of all the provincial championships would not only be assured but also enhanced under these proposals.

Lismoghan (Down) - Posts: 2 - 04/10/2015 15:09:25    1795634

To Lismognan -
Am I living under a rock or what - are you giving us the FRC plan all over again ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 04/10/2015 16:33:16    1795652

GPA plan s like a wet squib - too many one sided matches - and why play 48 matches to elinate 8 teams ?
If we get to 8 groups of 4 - I'd rather amend the GPA plan and give it a jolt as follows -
1) 4 Strong groups each with a pair of 1 & 2 seeds; 4 Basic groups each with a pair of 3 & 4 seeds.
2) 4 Strong 3rd placed v 4 Basic 2nd placed in the plahoff rd and join 4 x Strong Top 2 and 4 x Basic Top 1 in
completing a 20-team KO field.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 04/10/2015 18:40:12    1795690

Clearly looks like nothing will be done as the Provincial draw will be live on rate next week. Great. Another year where the championship will fail to live up to hype it could achieve if it was changed

PoppinPoints (Meath) - Posts: 225 - 04/10/2015 19:00:27    1795695

There will be no meaningful change either way. Partially because there is a gulf in class between the top 3 teams in the country and the field., and partially because there is no will to change the system in any event.

The best change I could ever envisage would be that 1 ulster team every year go to connaught, and balance out the standard there. 2 leinster teams go to munster in turn every year, rotating every 6 years. That would balance the fixtures there. It would leave dublin out of leinster every 6th year allowing a non dublin team a fhance to win a provincial. It would also mean there could be great games earlier in the year. Cork v Dublin in a provincial decider in croke park or cork. Same with kerry.

This has worked in hurling with galway going to leinster.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 04/10/2015 19:13:15    1795701

Just wondering if the GPA's proposal has ignored/dismissed the Carlow proposal before it's even discussed. To bring the two proposals to the table would not be the end of the world.

CARLOW GAA FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP PROPOSAL ...

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2907 - 06/10/2015 14:00:06    1796383

Re: Carlow idea - what has changed ?
1st and 2nd Qual Rds are seeded, with the lower half hosting in each rd, and 2nd rd winners joining Prov Finalists in a Rd of 16.
Another streamlined simple solution -
1) Play existing format quickly to 8 Prov Finalists, with 24 Beaten (excl NY).
2) The 8 play 2 KO rds - 2 unbeaten to AI QFs, 6 Others will host AI Rd 3.
3) The 24 play 2 KO rds - 6 through to play away in Rd 3.
4) 6 Rd 3 winners join 2 unbeaten prov champs in AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 10/10/2015 20:05:03    1797740

I think the way the GAA has gone about this is wrong.

Getting county boards to submit specific proposals as to what way they'd run the championship will come up with a load of proposal but not necessarily one that is actually suitable to what they need.

What should've happened is dialogue to come up with a set of objectives that need to be met by the new system. It needs also to be given an idea of the time frame that needs to be worked on. How open are the GAA to bringing the All Ireland final forward? How many weeks off should we be making sure we allow the players? How much room do we have to change dates of provincial championships? It is impossible to come up with a suitable structure without knowing what flexibility we have.

You end up with proposals that are either too similar to before (Carlows proposal) or ones that may be too radical (GPA could be too radical in how it moves the provincials to being much earlier).

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 11/10/2015 11:19:38    1797786

I know I'm in the minority but I think at most only minor tweaks are needed. The common complaint among pundits and supporters seems to be the impact the intercounty season is having on club play and the one-sided championship matches. I can't see how the GPA's proposal or indeed any other will improve this situation.

The current format has worked well for over a hundred years with the addition of the qualifiers adding to it in my opinion (additional Saturday night fixtures, novel pairings, QF weekend, etc). What's changed is the massive demands managers are placing on players. A simple rule whereby county players are available to club teams on all weekends except where the county team is playing would solve much of the club crises. It wouldn't be popular with a lot of people but if strictly enforced, it would be the same for everyone. This is where the problem is so go after it directly. If you don't, it will still exist even with a new structure and inevitably will lead to the same complaint.

The one-sided games will never be eliminated. So called weaker counties have made it perfectly clear they have no interest in a second tier championship. They have plenty of opportunities in the League and in the qualifiers to win a few games. The provincial championship provides a fair chunk of counties with realistic aspirations of silverware. You look at the GPA's proposal and they have four teams to a group, one from each division. That actually increases the likelihood of hammerings. And bringing the Dublin's and Kerry's to places like Pairc Sean Mac Diarmuida or Pearse Park will do nothing except lead to under-usage of Croke Park and leave several thousand without tickets for championship games. The symmetrical nature of such a championship would also lead to less live coverage and less weekends of intercounty GAA.

Minor tweaks such as disbanding the Sigerson Cup and the interprovinicals and moving the u21 championship to the summer like hurling would alleviate some of the conjestion currently in February and March. The Sigerson Cup and the interprovincials currently provide little or no revenue for the GAA as there is no interest in them. All bar the final of the Sigerson Cup is played on a weekday. It no longer has a place in the GAA calender. The January competitions could be reviewed as well. If there is an appetite for teams to play games at this time of year, let them form their own tournaments and play their own challenge matches. There is no need to have league semi-finals or finals as they devalue the group stages. Small changes such as these would go along way without the need for radical changes.

Former_Poster (Meath) - Posts: 394 - 11/10/2015 11:50:19    1797792

@ formerposter.

I think theres a push for a fairer championship, it's hard to argue that the current system is not a little unfair on the Ulster teams. Next season there will be only 1 Ulster team in the bottom 2 league divisions yet 5 out of the 16 teams in the first round of the qualifiers come from Ulster. In Connacht and Munster it is possible to win 1 match to get to the provincial final and with it a place in the last 12 in the championship. I think a fairer system should be found.

The GPA is also getting feedback that players want to be playing more championship matches, although I think their proposal is rubbish, I think we do need to look at a way of getting more high profile games for our county players. The training to games ratio is ridiculous.

In my opinion the season is just too spaced out. The league started on 31st January and ended on 26 th April. That was 13 weeks. Get rid of the playoffs and it can get played off in 9 weeks, 7 matches plus 2 rest weeks.

The New York game was played on 3rd of May, otherwise the provincials started on 16th May and ran until the 19th July. That's a 3 week break between league and championship and then 10 weeks to run off the provincials. That should be cut down to 2 weeks and 7 weeks. It then took a further 9 weeks to play the last 4 rounds of the All Ireland series. That could be cut to 7 weeks easily. You could start the season 4 weeks later and still finish it at least 4 weeks and as much as 6 weeks earlier using present structures. It'd be no problem adding in some sort of group stage instead of the qualifiers. To give more games whilst still finishing the season earlier.

I don't agree that county players should be available to their clubs when not playing for the county. That hurts the county teams. A shorter season solves this issue too.

Just play the club leagues during the county season and leave the championship until after. Most teams don't expect to have county players available for league games. As a club player I don't want championship fixtures to be fit in between county matches. You don't get a chance to train as a full team, plus it is hard to plan when you're likely to be playing as it depends on the county teams results.

I also disagree about the sigerson. There should be a championship for universities. It doesn't take up much time in the fixture list to be worth getting rid of. Starting the league later gives time to play the Sigerson.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 11/10/2015 14:50:50    1797810

Abolish the National League, which is not well ranked as a competition by many.

PROVINCIAL CHAMPIONSHIPS: Expand the Provincial Championships into groups, with teams playing home and away games in quick succession. The top two sides from each half would proceed to Provincial SF's. The two finalists from Provincial final, would be seeded in the All Ireland series groups draws.
All Provincial sides would then proceed to a 32 team All Ireland Championship and the top 2 Provincial sides being seeded.

ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP: The All Ireland Series would have two group stages, 8 Initial groups of 4 teams each ( 3 games each ), with 2 teams proceeding from each to a 4 Groups of 4 ( 3 games each ), and the top team from each group entering the All Ireland Semi finals. The All Ireland finalists would have played 8 All Ireland Championship games. Provincial finalists would be seeded for Initial group stage, and the Provincial winners would be seeded for the 2nd stage groups ( If they reach them ).



This would ensure more a more balanced Championship, with more games played between top sides.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 11/10/2015 16:16:30    1797819

How about this ?
1l Play existing format to Prov Finalists 8, and Other beaten 24 (excl NY).
2) For 8 x 4 groups - put each Prov Final in separate groups (A-D), along with a 2 and 3 seed, based on NFL rank (4 x 1123).
3) Put a pair of 2 and 3 seeds in groups E-F (2 x 2233); and a quartet of 4 seeds in groups G-H (2 x 4444).
4) Prov Finals in 2nd of the 3 matches; groups have max 2 same-prov counties; and no repeat pairings.
5) 20-team KO with 4 3rd placed (A-D) hosting 4 top 2 (G-H); winners join top 2 (A-F) in AI Last 16.
6) For smooth KO scheduling and no repeat pairings, asign team numbers as follows-
1st in A-F numbered 1-6, respectively; 2nd in A-F with 7-12; 4 3rds A-D 13-16; and 4 4th seeds G-H 17-20.
7) Rd of 16 has - 1 hosting 16 or 17; 2 hosting 15 or 18 etc; to 5 v12 etc; to 8 hosting 9.
And QF Rd - 1 or 16 or 17 hosts 8 or 9 etc; to 4 or 13 or 20 hosts 5 or 12.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 11/10/2015 18:36:52    1797845

@Whammo86

I agree the Ulster championship is by far the most competitive of the provinces however this fact is being perceived in the wrong way. I think everyone should embrace this. As a supporter, I actually love the Ulster championship. Every weekend from the middle of May to the middle of July, we are guaranteed a good game up in Ulster. Imagine this being replaced by a champions league type format where you've a group consisting of let's say Monaghan, Galway, Tipperary and Louth. What game would interest the neutral there? Would supporters even travel to games? What you gain in a fairer championship, you lose in TV coverage and attendances, and arguably interest too.

The unique and unfair layout of the championship actually adds to the product in my opinion. Leinster might be weak now but remember back in the late nineties when Meath, Kildare and Offaly were strong. I would love to see a return to those days and these counties packing into Croke Park for a Leinster QF clash.

The Sigerson Cup adds nothing. The only reason to retain it is the history associated with it. I can't remember who said it but there was an article in a newspaper a while ago pointing out that the college competitions made sense years ago because players were away from home for long periods and this provided them a means to train at a high standard. This is no longer the case. At the moment it's congesting an already congested part of the calendar as well leading to aggro with intercounty teams not having their players for games at the start of the year.

The club championships should be run off at the same time as the inter county championship. It's a summer time sport. Players playing with their clubs has really only become a problem in the last 15 or 20 years. It's a small price to pay if you're a member of an intermcounty panel. You're club may lose out out on your services for most of the summer but it's a small sacrifice. At least it addresses another complaint which is that players want more games. Why then make them train with the county instead of play with the club?

Former_Poster (Meath) - Posts: 394 - 11/10/2015 19:15:25    1797858

To Whammo86 -
To shorten the season like gou mention, my recent idea above allows the Champions League to start, say 2 weeks, after conclusion of the Prov SFs, and letting the momentum of Prov Finals to build until after the 1st group game. .And, maybe I should make the EF qualifiers as teams 13-16, to play ABCD group winners in the Rd of 16 (expected to be their 1st against a 1 seed).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2598 - 12/10/2015 14:08:07    1798031

All the proposals I have seen are talking about expanding the championship further in an environment where club football is already squeezed out.

This is impossible and a task doomed to failure in my view. Hence the status quo, or something very close to it is ensured.

The only possible answer is to combine the National League and the AI championship. This would also reinvigorate the League, which is a bit of a non event at present.

A system based on that used in American Football is the answer.

There teams play one league ficture against the other teams in their "Conference" (or provence), along with further fixtures against teams from the other Conferences.

League placings within Four Provincial "Conferences" could then be used to determine

1. Provincial Finalsists and would be a way of retaining those showpieces with losers remaining in championship through back door also open to top 16 teams.
2. Home Advantage for the knockout phase.
3. Seedings for the knockout phase.

16 Lower ranked teams could also eneter a 2nd tier competition, having had a chance to potentially win the main competition in any given year.

It would be a bit complicated (As the American Football is with only 2 conferences) but a workable model, with a managable number of meaningful fixtures for all would definitely be possible.

spiritof1991 (Down) - Posts: 693 - 12/10/2015 15:04:50    1798070

@ formerposter

Regarding playing club matches in break weeks between county games in reality it is unlikely to happen. County boards look after fixture planning and they will not look to do anything to hurt the county team. As a club player I am fine with that. Let us have our leagues and then finish the county season at the latest the end of August (will finish earlier for most teams) and then the club championship still gets played at a decent time of the year.

I agree with you regarding provincials being more exciting than the GPAs group stage proposal. I really dislike those to be honest, there will be a lot of boring matches. I think some sort of group stage could be created though.

I could not disagree more with your point about the Sigerson, I think it is a bit elitist. Even if it was the case that University football adds nothing to County teams that is not the be all and end all of Gaelic games. The great thing about our games is that they cater for players at a number of different levels of the game. Sigerson provides a really good standard of football for someone who is a good player but maybe not county standard to play at the highest level he can play at. What about the player planning on a career that will not provide him with the time to commit to playing intercounty football, but right now has the free time to play university football? It can provide an opportunity for someone on the fringes of county panels to get noticed and push himself into contention for others. You see stories of foreign people getting exposed to Gaelic games and taking it up, joining or starting clubs back home. University GAA clubs are a great advertisement for our games, enthusiasts of every other college society would love to have the sort of funding the GAA club receives. Those clubs are very important to the GAA anld deserve to have their own championship.

@omahant

Your system does a good job of giving more games to county players in a short time period. It may be a little on the complicated side to get popular appeal, though.

@spiritof1991

I disagree with your assessment that more championship matches can't be provided without impacting club football. The intercounty season (not including the preseason tournaments) ran from 31st January to 20th September. That's 34 weeks. In the league a team plays a max of 9 games and in championship a team plays at most 9 rounds of football (discounting replays, which I hope could become a thing of the past). By squashing the season up you could easily start it later (better for county players as they can then train less), end it quicker to allow more time for club championship) and still offer 7 league games with no playoffs, a max of 4 provincial championship games, 3 all ireland group games and 4 knockout rounds in that time no problem. 18 rounds of games in say 26 weeks doesn't sound overly taxing to me. It might actually see more rotation in county teams also so that most panel members play games rather than just training all year for now reward.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 12/10/2015 19:50:33    1798175