Ok a calendar for my proposal for this season past using minor surgery of the current championship calendar. Ulster championship started on 17th May. I'll use 10th May as a start date for the New York game.

10th New York Connacht game
17th May Ulster and Leinster preliminary rounds.
24th May First 2 Ulster Championship Quarter Finals, Munster championship quarter finals, Connacht championship quarter-finals
31st May Final 2 Ulster championship Quarter Finals, Leinster Championship quarter finals
7th June Munster and Connacht semi-finals
14th June Ulster and Leinster semi-finals
21st June No football (provincial hurling finals?)
27th June All Ireland Round 1
28th June All 4 Provincial Finals (Maybe have 1 on the Saturday for TV)
5th July No Football
12th July All Ireland round 2
19th July All ireland round 3
26th July No Football
2nd August All Ireland quarter-final weekend back on the August bank holiday.
7th August No Football
14/15th August All Ireland Semi-final weekend both games on the same weekend.
22nd August No Football (Hurling Final?)
29th August No Football
6th September All Ireland Football Final give 2 extra weeks for club games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/09/2015 17:59:23    1791546

If I were going for full reconstructive surgery on the Inter-county season it would go something like this.

No playoffs in league

8th March League round 1
15th March League round 2
22nd March League round 3
29th March Break week
5th April League round 4
12th April Provincial Championship preliminary rounds
19th April Break week
26th April League round 5
3rd May Provincial championship quarter-finals
10th May Break Week
17th May League round 6
24th May Provincial championship semi-finals
31st May Break week
7th June League round 7
13th June All Ireland round 1
14th June Provincial championship finals
21st June Break week
28th June All Ireland Round 2
5th July All Ireland Round 3
12th Break Week
19th July All Ireland Quarter-finals
26th July Break week
2nd August All Ireland Semi-finals
9th August Break week
16th August All Ireland Final
Give 5 extra weeks for club championships, they can get played off by the end of the year.


I think a similar system could be good for Hurling. Except with 4 pots of 4 and keep the Lower level All-Ireland's

Pot A Leinster and Munster champions, next best 2 from league.
Pot B Leinster and Munster runners-up, next best teams from league.
Pot C 4 next best teams from league
Pot D Ulster champions, previous years Christy Ring champion, next best teams from the league.

Apart from Galway teams play in their own Province. Division 1A and 1B teams get entry into Munster and Leinster championships. Division 1A-2B teams qualify for the Ulster championship.
Play Connacht, Ulster and Leinster junior competitions to determine seedings for lower level competitions. Leinster and Ulster junior champions play in the provincial senior championship the next year.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 23/09/2015 18:47:56    1791562

People on here have some great ideas but infortunately nobody will see them .

Sadly it needs to come from a famous and big GAA name ( s ) Gavin , Jim McG , Ó Se etc.

Why not email your ideas to different newspapers or maybe just find their respective emails .

These are the guys who get the ideas and plans into the public domain. We could have 10,000 post on here but nobody will see them.

We need change . The provincial system is long gone . Sadly the men in suits in my own province will vote no more times than Mr . Paisley !!!

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 23/09/2015 19:26:48    1791575

Whammo86 - again, great work out in there and some very good proposals. I like your complete restructuring of the calendar. However I think maybe 12th April is a little early to expect teams to be ready for Championship football. If you moved League round 5 here, and a couple of small changes you could probably manage to leave Championship preliminary rounds to April 29th without losing too much. The obvious benefits of this system/calendar are that if teams are knocked out of provincials in preliminary rounds or QF they still have 2/3/4 league games still to play to help prepare for All Ireland series. This would also restrict the number of challenge games county teams play to prepare for Championship as they will now have meaningful league games for this. I know in Sligo at least, club league games have been postponed so county team can go away for a challenge game, which is crazy and increasingly frustrating for club players.

It is certainly the kind of restructuring that is required to the scheduling of fixtures, and it would also facilitate having club all Ireland completed in calendar year also. Will the GAA move AI finals away from the traditional weekends though? I know it seems like a crazy reason to oppose change, but it seems to be an excuse for avoiding any change in the GAA - its always been done this way, its the tradition of the GAA blah blah blah.

But it just goes to show that it is certainly possible to make a more balanced system that can be run off in a much fairer manner to cater for both club and county players.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 24/09/2015 10:12:57    1791681

Guys, these are truly great ideas - something to accomodate everyone - keep prov championships, symmetric 4x8 ABCD pots and a seeding mechanism that blends NFL and prov championship performances (with any adjustments you'd like) that neutralises the prov imbalances. For example - the Donegal/Tyrone 2015 prelim rd loser would get a bye to rd 2, while weak Muns SF losers might need to contest rd 1.

For a comprehensive seeding mechanism, I offer the following -
1) Teams simply start with their NFL seeding (1-32) AFTER accounting for NFL promotion/relegation issues at NFL conclusion.
2) NFL with 3 up/3 down (better ebb and flow for ABCD pots).
3) Seeding adjustment of 'minus 3' for each prov championship victory (e.g. this allows open draw Uls prelim rd winners an opportunity to potentially advance up one pot with 2-3 wins).
4) Prov champs seeded no lower than A, and losing finalists no lower than B.
5) Rd 1 and rd 2 losers contest 16-team TMC as well - champ seeded no lower than B the next year (may need to bump mid-Div 2 seed 13 to seed C).

All we are doing now is putting bells and whistles (needed or otherwise, you decide) to the JMcG/Kelly idea.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 24/09/2015 17:12:31    1791963

The most important question is "Do the players want it?" If so then by all means look at it. But the last time this was tried i.e. the Tommy Murphy Cup, players left the county panels en mass. I remember Eamon O'Hara Sligo in particular refusing to play.

mod (Mayo) - Posts: 859 - 24/09/2015 17:30:56    1791979

Can't speak for the players but as a fan of a weaker county I have literally zero interest in a B championship. It was really annoying a few years ago when division 4 teams were excluded from the qualifiers.

I don't see my idea as being like JMcG/Kelly as they both want to exclude teams from the All Ireland series. I think if the league gets played alongside the provincial championships then that's a good improvement so that weaker counties get more competitive matches at the height of the season. No need for a B championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/09/2015 18:09:35    1792008

In order for a B championship to be successful the players, supporters and sponsors would need to be on board.
I dont think any of them would be.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 24/09/2015 19:49:53    1792044

How about 3 up/3 down and seeding improvement per prov championzhip victory ?
Say, a C seed wins Lein prelim and QF rds and loses to the Dubs in the Lein SF, and therein, improves their seeding by 6 with a possible upgrade to a B seed and a bye to rd 2 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 24/09/2015 20:18:28    1792057

mod - Please can we not let the joke that was the TMC be used as a reason to avoid change. It was not even a second tier competition. It was for teams that lost two games. It got zero exposure and/or respect from GAA HQ and made teams entering it look like fools. I remember Sligo players having no interest in playing in it, and rightly so. The team that ended up representing Sligo had mostly players that were not part of the squad all year that just got called in for that competition.

Whammo86 - Also coming from a weaker county, I actually like the idea of having a MEANINGFUL second tier All-Ireland, designed in a way that gives the opportunity of getting into A competition via provincials, or promotion from league, or by winning previous years B competition (aka JMCG proposal). I do however like your idea presented in this thread. It keeps the provincials, and gives teams an opportunity to progress through the All Ireland series by beating teams of a similar level, with each round getting progressively more difficult. While it does not incorporate a second tier, I think it is certainly a competition format that should be considered.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 25/09/2015 08:39:46    1792146

Whammo86, very good ideas but where do you see club football fitting into your idea. No county team will let players play club football on the break week as they would have a game the following Sunday so are you proposing a break in Club football from March to August 16th?

donegalhills (Donegal) - Posts: 17 - 25/09/2015 09:12:11    1792159

donegalhills
County: Donegal
Posts: 15

1792159
Whammo86, very good ideas but where do you see club football fitting into your idea. No county team will let players play club football on the break week as they would have a game the following Sunday so are you proposing a break in Club football from March to August 16th?


Donegalhills, I looked at it from a Sligo point of view, and I could certainly see it being workable to have county players being available for minimum 50-60% of league games between March and May. There would be little or no club football in June, but most counties would be finished by July - only 4 counties would be remaining after mid July so it really should not be too hard to manage. For the counties getting to semi and final, club would be delayed to mid august at the latest, an improvement on what it is now.
I think there needs to come a directive from Croke Park that prevents the cancellation of club fixtures for preparation of county teams, and does not allow preventing county players playing club when no county game on same weekend. Maybe an exception for week prior to championship at the most.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 25/09/2015 09:58:57    1792186

To solve the Club v County scheduling issue, should counties by treated as 'clubs', similar to the Irish Rugby Union creation of the Provinces as clubs to compete in Europe ?
Playerx could be assigned to the County OR parish Club, but not both. Transfers back and forth could occur to allow for a smooth scheduling of both County and Club matches, possibly even in parallel, if necessary.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 25/09/2015 16:28:36    1792452

I think the club v county thing isn't a big problem. Play the club leagues whilst the inter-county season is going on. I've played football in both Meath and Antrim and we don't expect to have our players for club league while lads are with the county. There's a lot of time in my calendar at the end of the season to have a really good club championship. In Meath we've a group stage with 5 games in it and we'd play 2 rounds of championship at the start of April in the break in county fixtures. I absolutely hated that, if you lost both of those matches your season was practically over before the summer had even started.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 25/09/2015 19:30:51    1792499

Now that we need so much time to play off our ever so important club competitions why not just play off the All-Ireland between the top four teams in Division 1 of the League. The provincial championships could be played off in some kind of blitz format over a week-end or two culminating in an inter-provential (Railway Cup) competition.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 25/09/2015 21:58:44    1792525

Which is better - the ABCD above or my 'Double 16' ?
Again, my Double 16 has no championship change until we have Prov SF 16 and the 1st Rd Qual 16.
Then, Prov SF 16 plays 3 KO rds (incl playoff) to get 2 unbeaten champs 2 front door AI QF berths.
Losers of 8, 4, 2 via 2nd chance, enter Qual rds (or AI rds) 2, 3, 4.

1st Rd Qual/TMC 16 play 4 KO rds to get 1 TMC champ 1 side door AI QF berth.
Weakest 8 of 16 play in one half of the draw for TM Shield and TMC final berth.
Initial losers of 8, 4, via 3rd chance, enter Qual/AI rds 2, 3.
(Alternatively, treat upper 8 TMC and lower 8 TMS separately, with both champs entering 12-team Rd 4 instead.)
Qual/AI rds 1 to 4, derived above, have quantities of 16, 16, 16, 10.
5 Rd 4 winners earn 5 back door AI QF berths (or 6 if final TM 2 enter Rd 4).

ABCD gives higher seeds a later entry point to the AI Championship (with champs having
no 2nd chance in Rd of 16), while I give a 3rd chance to 12 early losing teams.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 26/09/2015 17:52:54    1792616

Which is better - the ABCD above or my 'Double 16' ?
Again, my Double 16 has no championship change until we have Prov SF 16 and the 1st Rd Qual 16.
Then, Prov SF 16 plays 3 KO rds (incl playoff) to get 2 unbeaten champs 2 front door AI QF berths.
Losers of 8, 4, 2 via 2nd chance, enter Qual rds (or AI rds) 2, 3, 4.

1st Rd Qual/TMC 16 play 4 KO rds to get 1 TMC champ 1 side door AI QF berth.
Weakest 8 of 16 play in one half of the draw for TM Shield and TMC final berth.
Initial losers of 8, 4, via 3rd chance, enter Qual/AI rds 2, 3.
(Alternatively, treat upper 8 TMC and lower 8 TMS separately, with both champs entering 12-team Rd 4 instead.)
Qual/AI rds 1 to 4, derived above, have quantities of 16, 16, 16, 10.
5 Rd 4 winners earn 5 back door AI QF berths (or 6 if final TM 2 enter Rd 4).

ABCD gives higher seeds a later entry point to the AI Championship (with champs having
no 2nd chance in Rd of 16), while I give a 3rd chance to 12 early losing teams.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 26/09/2015 17:54:40    1792617

....so 12 with 3rd chance, and 4 prov champs playoff with 2 chances of making the AI QFs (unlike ABCD abovr). Which is better ? - I am biased toward my D16 idea, but I feel that the ABCD is more streamlined and the seeding nature (via fair NFL) is adequate compensation for lopsided provs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 26/09/2015 19:11:41    1792636

There is no point changing championship structures if we don't address the reasons the current system doesn't work. What are the faults:
1. League structures ensure that only div 1 teams can compete as the beast teams are playing at a higher intensity and other teams are not ready for that level when the championship starts.
2. Seeded provincial championships in Munster and Leinster prevent the smaller teams from playing provincial championship finals.
3. Lower ranked counties have no meaningful matches all summer and cannot develope year on year
4. Club players have no certainty about club championship fixtures
5. More home matches for counties to raise revenue

How do you fix it?
1. Shorten intercounty season and provide windows for club football - Jan- March (county league) April-May (club champ) June-Aug (county champ) Sept - Nov (club champ)
2. Change leagues to divisions of 6/7 (Div 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B and 3) promotion from 2A to 1A, 2B to 2A and 3 up to 2A and 2B. 2 up 2 down with 4 up from Div 3
Top 12 league teams who don't win a provincial title qualify for Senior champ
example -
1A
Dublin
Cork
Tyrone
Galway
Derry
Roscommon

2A
Mayo
Kerry
Donegal
Meath
Down
Monaghan

3. Remove prelim competitions

4. Almost Open draw provincials run off in 5-6 weeks - div 1 teams omitted from preliminary rounds

5. World cup style all ireland series of 3 tiers
- Tier 1 (top 16) 4 teams per group (open draw), provincial winners plus next 12 from league,
- Tier 2 of 8 teams
- Tier 3 of 8 teams - future entry option for Kilkenny/UK champs/New York via play off against bottom team from previous year
- Top 4 from senior groups qualify for all ireland quarters, 4 second place teams enter play offs and best 3rd place team
- Tier 2 has 2 groups with group winners qualifying for senior champ playoffs
- Tier 1 winners qualify for senior champ playoffs
- Senior champ playoffs are open draw

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 28/09/2015 12:40:17    1793030

tirawleybaron - I cannot say I agree with your analysis:

There is no point changing championship structures if we don't address the reasons the current system doesn't work. What are the faults:
1. League structures ensure that only div 1 teams can compete as the beast teams are playing at a higher intensity and other teams are not ready for that level when the championship starts.Pitting Division 4 teams against Div 1 teams will not improve the weaker teams. They need to progress up through the levels to be able to compete. The league is actually the only place a lot of teams get a number of competitive games. It is Championship where the issues lie. These are the reasons Whammos suggestion works. It pits teams against other teams of their level, while victories see them progress to increasingly more difficult opponents.
2. Seeded provincial championships in Munster and Leinster prevent the smaller teams from playing provincial championship finals.Agree there should be no seeding for provincials.
3. Lower ranked counties have no meaningful matches all summer and cannot develope year on year Point one above
4. Club players have no certainty about club championship fixtures Agree specific windows need to be decided upon for club championship. This should not be too difficult, and Co Boards/Co Managers should not have the power to cancel these games to allow for Co Team preparations.
5. More home matches for counties to raise revenue Not Sure about this one tbh. More games more than likely means less competitive games. It also contradicts your point of reducing number of games to allow for more time for club games

I really think Whammo's suggestions adress most of what is wrong with the championships, while retaining the provincials and providing a (reasonable) reward for winning one. Removing seeding means smaller counties can still have te chance of an upset in provincials also.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 01/10/2015 10:13:51    1794542