I don't think you can keep the current format without having the same number of teams in each provincial champ. And I don't think that too many counties would be behind the idea of switching provinces so what if the current provincial structure is played out as is but not as dragged out as is as present. EG Play all the provincial championships in the month of June. the 4 provincial winners would go to the AI 1/4 finals and all the beaten provincial teams join the qualifiers in round 1. As there would be a need for a few byes in round 1, give the beaten provincial finalists a bye to the 2nd round. Play the qualifers in July and you are still ready for the 1/4 final in Aug.

Qualifier round 1 24 teams (32-8 prov finalists) 12 Games
Round 2. 16 teams - 12 round 1 winners plus 4 beaten prov finalists
Round 3. 8 teams
1/4 Finals 4 winners of round 3 plus provincial winners.

donegalhills (Donegal) - Posts: 17 - 17/08/2015 09:54:25    1771202

NO,how can we do away with the Provincial rivalries?? And running the Provincials aside to an All-Ireland series would not be the same. Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

You think the weaker counties have a better chance in a League Championship format . . come on, the big guns remain the big guns.

I like Carlow's idea of a league format within the Provincials to provide more games qnd then jumping to semi's (in Ulster and Leinster) and Finals in Connaught and Munster.

But then again we are treating the symptoms and not the problem. Weak counties are weak, not because of the championship structure, and League formats remove the chance of the 'upset' on the day victory. If you ran a League format would Sligo have got to the final this year? Would Fermanagh have made a Q-Final??? Would Monaghan have had silverware ....

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 17/08/2015 10:08:55    1771214

Well its 10 years now since the Munster hurling Champions went on to win the All Ireland so maybe the provincial set up is doing nothing in that respect seeing as the provincial champions are the only teams not to get a second chance.

Same in football, it seems a bit crazy that as a reward for winning your province you forego and second chance in the championship.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1351 - 17/08/2015 10:51:56    1771257

Any chance admin could run a poll on this? Or has one been run before? I think there is an appetite for change but it's not going to be easy to find a general consensus on what that change should be. Often democracy doesn't give you a solid decision making process and we may be left to the realm of compromise. I fear that is what will happen here as the proposal that eventually gets implemented will be a watered down version of the original and will not solve all the problems.

In my view the provincials should be kept within an overhaul of the league and all Ireland series structures. The McGuinness proposal is the best I've seen yet.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 17/08/2015 11:25:33    1771290

The McGuinness championship proposal is terrible for the weak counties, it also gives pretty much zero importance for winning your province.

The big problem at the minute is that the qualifiers aren't very fair, I can think of a load of ways that would make it more even but also still allows every team an opportunity at a second chance in the championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 17/08/2015 15:49:21    1771526

Omahant,

I've finally taken time to assess the various probabilities of winning the AI under your proposal. Here are my results. As always, they are open to challenge.

Current system
Team drawn in Preliminary Round P=5/256.
Team drawn in quarter final P=8/256
Team with bye to semi final P=14/256

Omahant system
Prelim P=7/256
quarter. P=8/256
Bye to semi P=10/256

You have reduced the advantage for teams with a bye over prelim teams from a factor of 2.8 to 1.4.

I consider your system fairer and it doesn't affect the provincial championships.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 17/08/2015 20:44:19    1771701

tearintom,

I am sorry for repeating myself but I cannot let pass any statement that it's a disadvantage to win the provincial championships. On the contrary, it gives a team a massive advantage.

In every sport, in every country in the world, having to face 3 knockout matches is better than having to face 4 or more. This applies in the AI football and hurling championships as well.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 17/08/2015 20:51:40    1771709

To Tommy 58 -

Thx for replying to my prior post. In your most recent post, 3 KO encounters is easier than 4, when assuming all opponents are of equal strength (probability of win = 50%, which I believe you assume). In fact, one could argue that in my 'Double 16' idea, earning an AI QF berth is easier for the Ulster QF losers via the side door (4 wins) versus front door (3 wins, incl prov champs playoff).
That is, in a sense, I am handicapping the Prov SF 16, but I feel this improves the pairing competitiveness of the overall structure.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 18/08/2015 16:43:52    1772146

To Tommy 58 -
So now for 'perfection' - how do we get to a SF bye/ Prelim Rd factor of 1, for a 8/256 level playing field for all ?
Perhaps, merge 2 of the Qual Rds, or extend the front door by an extra playoff rd.
The latter would reduce a SF Bye front door access (requiring 7 wins in lieu of 6) by 2/256, the amount needed.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 19/08/2015 19:31:29    1772790

Leinster has had its day.
Cork/Kerry is still good in Munster (and Tipp may improve), while I still feel that Galway and Roscommon can come back and make Connacht interesting again.
Ulster is fine.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 19/08/2015 20:30:14    1772822

Factor of 1.4 should be acceptable if the SF byes are seeds and Prelim teams are lowest NFL ranked.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 25/08/2015 20:40:48    1776243

Factor of 1.4 should be acceptable if the SF byes are seeds and Prelim teams are lowest NFL ranked.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 25/08/2015 20:42:15    1776244

If Mayo can win this year this debate will loose traction. I hope Mayo do win and I like the provencial tradition but would be open to some modification and meeting regional needs etc. The backdoor is always there you know.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1672 - 25/08/2015 20:58:09    1776254

its not about making them competitive. its the inequity of being drawn in a prelim in uslter or getting a bye into munster or connaght semis

kavvie (Clare) - Posts: 505 - 25/08/2015 20:58:09    1776255

Yewtree
I agree with you thoroughly. A Donegal correspondent says get rid of the provincial championships. I can tell him that it was only after his county won its first Ulster title in 1972 that Donegal started to become a serious football county. Ten years later they won the U21 title and after ten more they won their first Senior title. Nobody could seriously suggest the 72 win had no impact on what happened later. Simply said doing away with the provincial championships would only improve the game where it is already flourishing and do nothing for the 'smaller counties'

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4342 - 25/08/2015 21:53:24    1776290

tearintom,

I am sorry for repeating myself but I cannot let pass any statement that it's a disadvantage to win the provincial championships. On the contrary, it gives a team a massive advantage.

In every sport, in every country in the world, having to face 3 knockout matches is better than having to face 4 or more. This applies in the AI football and hurling championships as well.

When you forego a second chance in the championship then of course there is a disadvantage whilst there is an advantage of playing less games to forego a second chance is of course a disadvantage.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1351 - 26/08/2015 10:01:52    1776338

For me it's all about fairness - would Monaghan have beaten Donegal this year had they played the same number of games against the same level of opposition (Monaghan beat Cavan & Fermanagh while Donegal beat Tyrone, Armagh & Derry)? Monaghan has not played a preliminary round in Ulster in 12 years.

Would Mayo have beaten Donegal had they played the same number of games against the same level of opposition (Mayo beat Galway & Sligo while Donegal beat Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, lost to Monaghan and beat Galway)?

However it's done the AI series needs to be 8 groups of 4 (seeded) with every team getting at least 3 Championship games every year. This will improve the weaker teams and will ensure fairness in the route to the Semi-Finals. My preference would be that the lowest seeded teams in each group would play all their games at home. It could also be run off much quicker with games every two weeks.

The Provincial Championships could be run off separately or abolished - I'm not really bothered. I think they have run their course and are now just a revenue stream for the Provincial Boards.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 26/08/2015 10:29:24    1776354

Provs need to be retained under AI umbrella, but could be played off quickly and early under my 'Double 16' above.
Is the 1.4 factor acceptable above ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 07/09/2015 17:56:29    1784205

To answer the question here are next year's quarter finalists already...
Kerry v Kildare
Dublin v Cork
Tyrone v Monaghan
Mayo v Donegal

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 07/09/2015 18:36:55    1784217

Scrap the provincial championships!! If not, run them separate to the All-Ireland.

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 07/09/2015 19:20:27    1784235