With the club at any level, it's the sense of winning silverware full stop I would have thought. Everyone buys into - the players and the supporters. It has to happen at county level too. People just have to buy into it, and the GAA would have to give them every chance to buy into it through promotion and encouraging attendance and, I repeat, giving it top billing along with the race for Sam. Run them off as double headers alongside the A championship maybe, so you'd have A & B 1/4 final on the same day in Croke Park.

If it's a fair system where players and supporters can clearly see why they're in a B championship and are still given opportunities to get themselves into the A, to win national championships etc., I don't see why anybody would turn their nose up at it.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 23/07/2015 18:29:38    1758165

If people are now suggesting the McGuinness championship should include all provincial finalists, I think the below is another option to be considered:

1. Provincial Preliminary Rounds
2. Provincial Quarter-finals
3. Provincial Semi-finals & Qualifier Round 1
4. Provincial Finals & Qualifier Round 2
5. All-Ireland Round of 16
6. All-Ireland Quarter-finals
7. All-Ireland Semi-finals
8. All-Ireland Final

Qualifier Round 1:
16 non-provincial semi finalists seeded into two groups based on league placing. Draw the higher league team against a lower league team with a separate draw for home tie.

Qualifier Round 2:
8 provincial semi-final losers and the 8 Qualifier Round 1 winners. Again seed the 16 teams into two groups based on league placing. Draw the higher league team against a lower league team with a separate draw for home tie.

Round of 16:
• 4 Provincial winners drawn at home to against one of the 4 lowest qualifiers based on league placing.
• Provincial runners-up drawn against a higher placed county based on the league with a separate draw to determine the home team.

The semi-final rotation should be retained e.g. this year Munster/qualifier v Ulster/qualifier and Leinster/qualifier v Connaught/qualifier.

Final note:
I can't see a B championship gaining that much support. It sounds good in theory but as seen with the Tommy Murphy Cup it needs to offer a route back into the championship. One question I would ask is does New York benefit from being in the Connaught Championship?

A suggestion I would make from the above Round of 16 is that counties who are below Division 2 in the league and have not progressed to the Round of 16 are outside the top half of both competitions. I would suggest that those counties outside the top half of both competition enter the Tommy Murphy Cup. The TMC should only reach a semi-final stage in Ireland. Across the Atlantic, other areas e.g. Boston should be encouraged to take on New York. The second TMC semi-final will only be contested by teams in the USA, possibly a month or two before the final so that the final venue is known a bit in advance. The TMC final should be staged in the USA every year. The incentive for counties entering the TMC is a team trip to the States. Stateside they'll be gaining from a decent game. It's just a suggestion. If there's an alternative incentive, great! ;-)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 23/07/2015 19:52:26    1758196

I agree with everyone who says that it would be unfair if the beaten provincial finalists still ended up in the B competition. I'd like to see it as the eight provincial finalists plus the best eight based on the league, not counting the aforementioned provincial finalists, and you'd have this:

Provincial champions:
Dublin
Monaghan
Mayo
Kerry

Beaten finalists:
Westmeath
Donegal
Sligo
Cork

Best 8 from the league excluding provincial champions:
Down
Roscommon
Tyrone
Derry
Meath
Galway
Cavan
Laois

Although with this tweak, poor Fermanagh and Antrim would get the chop.

And again, the provincial winners could be drawn against the bottom four teams in the league list (with Dublin vs Meath looking a bit tasty). Whether you introduce a rule barring rematches is another question; maybe give the provincial champions home advantage in all cases. Likewise the beaten provincial championships.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1032 - 23/07/2015 20:14:45    1758203

23/07/2015 15:33:57
JoeSoap
County: Donegal
Posts: 356

1758073
I also loathe the idea of any sort of Champions League format - there are just too many games with those types of ideas. There is zero room for club championships to be run off - somebody mentioned some teams twiddling their thumbs if they get knocked out of the provincials early with Jim's proposal, well why can't that county run off a few club championship games while they're waiting? If you take this year as your example, Tyrone would have been knocked out of Ulster in May and potentially waiting 2 months for the Sam Maguire race to start, what's to stop them running off their club games in the meantime?


Joe Soap one of the main points raised by JMG was to run off provincial championships quickly. No reason for them to take 10/11 weeks to be played. Play games of same stage (PR, QF, SF etc) on same weekend, games could be Fri, Sat & Sun, or just Sat & Sun. Ulster/Leinster could be played off over 5/6 weeks easily.
The argument of the likes of Sligo & Westmeath not getting into A Championship after reaching provincial semi is not a strong one IMO. Firstly, the Connacht & Leinster finals proved Sligo & Westmeath are not at the level yet to compete with the top teams. If they performed better in the league then they would get this opportunity. Why not reward these teams with being top seeds in the B Championship (like proposed in the A Championship). The incentives are there to make teams want to win this, but it needs to be given proper respect by the powers that be. It needs to be marketed and promoted and played in tandem with A Championship. By winning this, teams are getting to play on AI day in front of a packed CP, get guaranteed entry to following years A Championship, and get to win a national Championship. within a couple of years it would be taken very seriously and I believe it would become a very respected tournament. I see people comparing it to intermediate in club and I agree, you play at your level and build towards getting to A championship and get there when you are good enough.
I keep hearing the argument against this proposal that even if it is unrealistic, every team wants a shot at winning Sam. This gives you this shot through the league and provincial championship. it is the fairest means of protecting the traditional system, keeping the provincials and creates a realistic two tiered championship with rewards that incentivises taking the competition seriously.

Re club championships, I think by having a calendar marked out with precise dates for the provincial & AI championships, there should be no reason why club championship cannot be given respect and played in weekends marked out for just club championship. All that is really lacking here is organisation, and giving too much control to county managers.

Finally, can people stop comparing this with Tommy Murphy Cup. That was a complete joke of a competition, and was really a third tier competition. You had to lose twice to get entry, very prestigious! It was not given any thought or respect from the first minute and should not be used as a reason to not take up this proposal.

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 24/07/2015 09:12:30    1758260

Can't find the link for this, I think it was in the Irish Independant, but so far its the best idea I have seen. As some have said the idea of a B competition would not appeal to many, like the Tommy Murphy Cup. One of the problems with champions league is the increased games and therefore the effect on the club games. The other problem with the champions league format is the travelling. How many are going to travel from Antrim to Kerry or vice versa, whereas local derby's always have that competitive edge.

So this is in mind the format was...
The idea of the back door was to give weaker counties at least two game, this will cater for that and keep the provincial structure. Each province is split into groups, based on the teams finishing position in the league. Based on this year the groups would have been as follows:

Ulster
Group 1
Monaghan
Derry
Fermanagh

Group 2
Donegal
Down
Armagh

Group 3
Tyrone
Cavan
Antrim

Top 3 and 2nd place with most points qualify for Ulster semis

Munster
Group 1
Cork
Tipperary
Limerick

Group 2
Kerry
Clare
Waterford

Top teams qualify for final or top 2 into semi finals

Connacht
Group 1
Mayo
Galway
Leitrim

Group 2
Roscommon
Sligo
London/New York

Again, top teams qualify for final or top 2 into semi finals. (London & New York to play off for place in Connacht)

Leinster
Group 1
Dublin
Kildare
Offaly

Group 2
Meath
Louth
Carlow

Group 3
Laois
Wexford
Wicklow

Group 4
Westmeath
Longford
Kilkenny (If they take part)

The 8 provincial finalists then go through to the quarter finals on the August Bank Holiday weekend.
This structure would keep the provincial structure and not increase the amount of games required. It would also add the incentive of doing well in the league to get favourable draws. Roscommon/Meath as example. All group games could be played on the same weekends and be ran off from mid June to July, with the quarter finals in their usual slot.

dgl_gaa (Donegal) - Posts: 71 - 24/07/2015 14:11:29    1758433

Great idea dgl_gaa. Really great idea

DoireCityFC (Derry) - Posts: 1580 - 24/07/2015 14:34:48    1758446

legendzxix

I think your second proposal is a better one and again what I'd say about a B AI is that it's well worth considering as long as every team gets a shot at the main competition first, that's the only way to keep interest high in a county even if their expectations are low.

dgl_gaa

That's quite a good suggestion as well, I'd hope the Gaa would consider ideas like that, the only thing is you'd need to have Munster and Connacht semi finals I feel just so every team would be playing the same amount of games. Also I couldn't see Kilkenny taking part but you could bring either London or New York into Leinster to even up the groups in both Leinster and Connacht, not sure either NY or London would care too much anyway, it's not like moving a county!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 24/07/2015 14:59:42    1758462

Okay, your Connaught format automatically blows NY out of the equation as im sure the GAA or county boards are not going to pay to send two teams to stuff them never mind one and they can't come here cause half of them are probably there illegally and wouldn't be able to get back again. Not a big fan of that system it looks like a McKenna cup style competition.

I kinda favour the CL system if you were to scrap the league and the McKenna Cup equilivant cups and play the provincials during that time get them ran off from Jan-March then begin a CL system kind of like the Champions League where group 1-4 play one week and 5-8 play the following that will be over in 6 weeks with the Quarter finals of the All-Ireland is decided. If something like that did come into effect that is where sky could leapfrog rte with a match selection menu.

Find_the_space (Tyrone) - Posts: 313 - 24/07/2015 16:58:14    1758523

Its the best proposal i've seen and its worth a 2 year trail. I would also strongly back the home/away scenario's to decentralise the championship.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 24/07/2015 18:11:45    1758545

Find_the_space

I've always said that I think a World Cup systems (3 group games) would be more ideal than a CL system (6 group games), there's just too many games to be played in the CL system and a lot of the latter stage group games would be dead rubbers. I'd be happy for the Gaa to go down the 8 groups of 4 route once it's only 3 group games each and the provincials are used to help seed the groups as well.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 24/07/2015 18:14:27    1758547

A have a few worries about the Jimmy McGuinness formula. The main one is I think the league becomes too important. I don't think that's a good idea, with All-Ireland clubs/Sigerson getting played around that time it is hard for county teams to get their full team out. I also am not sure if realistically the B championship will get a buyin factor from players, even less so than the qualifiers. I don't understand why this is touted as being better than the qualifiers. The qualifiers give a team a chance to play the latter rounds of the Championship in the current year, whereas a B championship would only give a team a chance of playing in the last 16 the next season. Some advantages would if the games are played as openers to A games it might get good crowds out to games. I'd be more likely to go see Antrim play B championship if there was an interesting game then on after. The chance to win a trophy is something, although it kind of is a trophy for being 17th and is only played by teams that fail earlier in the season by not getting a good league placing. I know I'm coming across as a real kill joy, I just think the ideas I've heard so far aren't great. I think the qualifiers aren't great too. They're not fair, 5 Ulster and 7 Leinster teams in the first qualifier round is not fair when you look at the number of those teams playing in div 3 and 4 in the league. I also think provincial finalists get a bit of an easy ride to the last 12 particularly in Munster and Connaught. My qualifiers would differ:
Qualifiers 1: 16 teams, lowest rated league teams not in a provincial final.
Qualifiers 2: 8 winners from round 1. Each match gets played as a curtain raiser to a provincial final. Should help get crowds out.
Qualifiers 3: 8 best rated league teams not in a provincial final are in one half of the draw against each other. Provincial runner ups each play against a round 2 winner.
Qualifiers 4: round 3 winners play off, provincial runner ups kept apart.

All Ireland quarter finals.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 24/07/2015 20:16:03    1758582

A notable aspect of the McGuinness/Kelly format is the idea of a second tier championship offering a route to the top championship in the following year. When the Tommy Murphy Cup was run for a few years, managers of those counties involved lamented the fact that it did not offer a route back into the championship. Possibly using influence of the McGuinness/Kelly format, all the Tommy Murphy Cup lacked was the guarantee of the Tommy Murphy Cup winner being involved in the qualifiers in the following year?

Division 4 counties felt victimized by being shunted into the TMC. I've argued before that possibly all provinces should have an agreed seeding for counties starting off in their respective provincial first rounds. The 4 preliminary round losers of Ulster and Leinster, and the 4 quarter-final losers of the Munster and Connaught should enter the second tier championship.

A more streamlined qualifier system of 3 rounds can be run as before. 8 quarter-finalists from Ulster and Leinster along with 8 semi-finalists from all 4 provinces can then start off in the same qualifying round.

The TMC winner should be guaranteed a bye from their provincial first round in the following year, thus being guaranteed at least a place in the qualifiers. It's pretty much a return of the format from a few years back but with the addition of a reward for the TMC winner. It is obviously debatable as is any other suggestion.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 29/07/2015 21:51:53    1761091

People can propose all the fantastic formats they want but you have to consider long term knock on effects.
Completely ripping up the system like a Champs Lge format has no guarantee of player or fan buy in and could see crowds and subsequently revenue fall.
I'd do with some minor tweaking. Implement the FRC 4x8 proposal to end all the moaning about Kerry, Cork. Mayo etc playing less games. This would see numbers even and the structure more symmetrical without forcibly removing anyone from their home province.
Have the provincial QFs seeded based on league positions and run the championship from there.
Schedule it better so all QFs are not dragged out like they currently are i.e. have it done by end of May. Basically have provincial QFs and SFs wrapped up in 2-3 weeks.
Give CCCC the power to enforce club championship games in mid summer.
For a B comp perhaps the 8 losers of the Rd 1 qualifier to enter a new knockout comp and work from there.

RoyalBadger (Meath) - Posts: 571 - 30/07/2015 10:07:29    1761119

Jimmy's format = competitive games for most all counties = better chance of progressing = more player interest in weaker counties = more supporters will travel = more drama & excitement & anticipation for the lower tier football counties = new life into GAA for those counties = better gate receipts = less mismatches = less boredom = meaningful competition.

But I would suggest Jimmy's format wont happen because it wasn't thought up of internally within GAA power corridors, but more importantly & ludicrously it wont get backed by county board delegates, do as we always did mentality, don't want change etc

Pity cause it would be great for everyone now and in future generations to come. I am mainly talking for the weaker counties. Big counties don't mind having to wallop small counties so much!

arjuna (Longford) - Posts: 88 - 30/07/2015 11:32:17    1761148

Badger is right about not ripping up current structures. There has to be solutions found within current structures which is something I tend to focus on.

Is the interest there amongst counties to move to a different provincial championship? Would Longford and Cavan for example be open to moving to Connaught? Would Offaly and Laois be open to moving to Munster?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 30/07/2015 11:45:24    1761154

Am I the only one who thinks we should keep it the way it is? But change the qualifiers to the way it used to be, open draw

westmeath2015 (Westmeath) - Posts: 153 - 30/07/2015 12:14:53    1761167

The A and B side of the draw is working in terms of closing the gap between early provincial knockout and next game. Barring replays they are ensuring beaten provincial finalists have at least 2 weeks before Q4.

Ulster is the reason for one side of the draw being harder than the other. If Ulster could ensure the 2 lowest seeds started in it's preliminary and that the quarter-finals were even enough, the A and B sides would have a better balance.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 30/07/2015 13:06:15    1761187

"Jimmy's format = competitive games for most all counties = better chance of progressing = more player interest in weaker counties = more supporters will travel = more drama & excitement & anticipation for the lower tier football counties = new life into GAA for those counties = better gate receipts = less mismatches = less boredom = meaningful competition."

Don't agree with any of this. I don't think Jimmy's system benefits any weaker counties. A lot of teams still only play 2 championship games if they get knocked out of the B in the first round. The teams with a chance of winning the competition should be in a position to compete to reach round 3 of the qualifiers which is the last 16 of the championship. I don't know why people think that the prize of qualifying for the A championship in the following year is a superior carrot than the chance to play in the latter stages of the championship in the current year. I hate that the Jimmy McGuinnes places so much emphasis on league placing. Unless scheduling changes in the GAA it is not possible for all teams to play their strongest sides throughout the league. They don't always have access to players involved at Sigerson level or All Ireland club level. The one thing going for the Jimmy McGuinness is that it is fairer, all sides play 4 rounds to win it. In my opinion I like the fact that provincial champions make the quarters of the All Ireland, although I can understand why people don't like this.

Also Jimmy's criticism of the current championship regarding Cork only having 6 days before playing against Kildare is also silly. Not all games get played on the same day throughout a championship, so teams will always have different breaks from their opposition at some point along the way. The current system is pretty damn good really in reducing this, it is just hard to account for replays. I don't see how his championship wouldn't suffer from scheduling issues also. When does he intend to start the competition once the provinces are played. What about the teams lying idle waiting until the provinces finish.

In summary Its a really badly thought out proposal. Although Jimmy is still a great man.

On a side note moving counties between provinces is also a really stupid idea, it address the numbers imbalance but doesn't really do much to address quality imbalances. For a long time I was in favour of getting rid of provinces to make things more fair but the provincial structure is the best format for getting crowds going to the early rounds of the championship and gives the teams not realistically going to win the All Ireland a chance at winning an important trophy. Just make sure they're played off over 6/7 weeks.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 30/07/2015 18:40:15    1761382

Simple change

Keep structure but even out provinces

One team from Ulster goes into Connacht every year to make it an eight team province. The Ulster side would rotate every year so every nine years, a side like Donegal would know they will have to go west for a change. Its only one year for the Ulster side so it doesn't destroy the ethos of the provincial system and I'm sure a Donegal or Tyrone would love a crack at Mayo or Galway in May or June.

Two Leinster sides would go into Munster. Again it would rotate so every five to six years each side would have to play down South instead of their own Leinster championship. Just think about when it's Dublin's turn. Suddenly the Munster championship would be absolute dynamite and the Leinster championship would be highly competitive with the sides remaining sees light at the end of the tunnel with the big gun gone for a year. In this scenario Leinster would still have nine teams so it would require one qualifier to the quarter finals whilst the other three provinces all have eight (New York still in Connacht)

Teams would know they are playing once every four weeks and they can either schedule club championship games the week after the county match or two weeks after giving the manager either 14 or 21 days build up to next championship match. Obviously sides that make the quarter finals would need to postpone matches until they are eliminated but that will only affect eight counties and they can catch up as soon as they are eliminated.

Take a look at the possible calendar and let me know what you think.

26-Apr Leinster qualifer
03-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Munster+2 Leinster)
10-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Ulster +2 Connacht)
17-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Munster+2 Leinster)
24-May Four Provincial quarter finals(2 Ulster +2 Connacht)
31-May Two Provincial Semi finals(Munster+ Leinster )& Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week one and two
07-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Ulster+ Connacht)
14-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Munster+ Leinster )& Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week two and three
21-Jun Two Provincial Semi finals(Ulster+ Connacht)
28-Jun Second round of Qualifers for sides eleminated in week one and two
05-Jul Munster football final
12-Jul Leinster football Final & Second round Qualifiers for teams eliminated in week two and three
19-Jul Connacht and Ulster football finals & Beaten Munster finalist meets qualfier
26-Jul Beaten Leinster finalists meets qualfier
02-Aug Two All ireland Quarter finals & Beaten Connacht and Ulster finalists meet qualfiers
09-Aug Two All ireland Quarter finals
16-Aug
23-Aug All Ireland semi final
30-Aug All Ireland semi final
06-Sep
13-Sep
20-Sep All Ireland final

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 191 - 30/07/2015 19:00:53    1761392

Realistically Dublin won't be playing outside of the Leinster championship. Fermanagh and Cavan are the stand out counties from Ulster to rotate participation in the Connaught championship. Longford and Westmeath would most likely to rotate involvement in the Connaught championship. Offaly, Laois, Carlow and Wexford would stand out for Munster Championship rotation. Is the interest there amongst these counties for such rotation?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7859 - 31/07/2015 08:35:52    1761505