Which is more important, tradition or a fair and balanced championship? The first step is to make sure at least everyone is required to play the same amount of games to win an All Ireland title? I don't think it's such a massive step to take to replace a provincial final with a regional final? Each region could still be administered by the sitting provincial councils.

I get the point about some regions being more competitive than others. I think a seeding based on league placing could help with deciding which counties are rotated around the regions.

Good post .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 23/07/2015 18:07:43    1758156

Look the reality the system needs looked at:-

Asa prevoius poster noted Cork have won one game and are one game away from the q-final, -this happens every year .....

The reality Galway club hurling is strong , but it has a massive advantage by having no provincial championship to play in...

Ulster is competitive....At minor level this is very noticeable , Tyrone/Derry/Donegal/Armagh/Down were all on the same side of the draw in the Ulster MFC - we don't have a back door like Munster/Leinster ( Kerry lost 3 championship matches and still reached a semi-final) But look at those counties Donegal/Derry/Armagh/Tyrone /Down have all reached the MFC in recent yrs with Tyrone , Down, Derry and Armagh winning in the last 10-12yrs

cuchulainn35 (Armagh) - Posts: 1676 - 23/07/2015 18:22:26    1758161

I for one am not crying about Donegal and their tough draw. We done it in 2012 beating Cavan Derry Tyrone Down Kerry Cork and Mayo ----very impressive I must say as we beat the winners of the All Ireland's of 03/04/05/06/07/08/09/10 but did not get a chance to play the 2011 champions but we beat their conquerors in 2012
But to me the cheek of the Kerry post aboutUlster getting their house in order //// It's Munster who want a long hard look at theirselves, especially Tipp Clare Waterford and Limerick
How often in the last 100 years( no , I'm not joking) have the above mentioned counties beat either Kerry or Cork in the Munster championship That's where one of the big problems lies as regards the onesidedness of the championship Especially in Munster
Also also since 1991 all the Ulster sides who made the All Ireland final won Sam on at least one occasion
I done want Ulster seeded , stay as we are and even though we were beat Sunday it was great to have contested a tough Hard competitive game As our Jim said ---- the Ulster championship, the only game in town Just ask the Monaghan supporters right now.
Also as regards the stupid post about Donegal in Connaught,, well no disprect to the Connaught counties but if it happens in my lifetime ---- that would finish me following Donegal
We are Ulster and Ulster only
Read an article about Donegal from partition up to the 1970's ......... It mentioned how Donegal had very little ties with Dublin,, Donegal ties were with Derry and particular Glasgow
The reason being it was more or less cut off from the Republic by partition
To add to the debate I think Ulster are well placed in the race for Sam , I would not be too sure that Kerry will like the idea of maybe meeting either Monaghan /Tyrone in the Semi
Another point I want to make ---- Kenny Archer has Dublin no 1 Kerry at 2 with Monaghan at 3 and the lovely Donegal at no 4

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 23/07/2015 21:40:26    1758235

Currently, the AI SFC structure has 2x 16 - that are, the Prov SF 16 and the Qual Rd 1 of 16.
If we treated these two streams as the start of the championship proper with all 32 retaining 2 chances, it goes a long way in addressing the imbalances mentioned in this thread.
Whether an Ulster QF ends in win, loss or draw both participants are alive with 2 chances, just like Kerry with a bye to a Munster SF.
Nonetheless, seeding the Ulster SFlists should be persued as well.
With my idea (the 'Double 16'), it continues as follows -
Prov SF 16 - Play 3 KO rds to get 2 unbeaten Prov champs who earn 2 frony door AI QF berths.
Qual rd 1 (TMC) - Play 4 KO rds - champ earns 1 side door QF berth.
Initial TMC losers of 8, 4 and Prov SF 16 losers of 8, 4, 2 entervQual Rds 2, 3, 4 of 16, 16, 10 teams.
5 Rd 4 winners with 5 back door QF berths.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 24/07/2015 22:00:19    1758623

yes Derry played 4 games this year and 3 of them were against strong teams whereas Dublin have yet to have a test, if you look at a soccer tournament it is fair as it is about luck of the draw whereas if Dublin wins the All-Ireland you can't say it is totally earned as would they win it if they faced Donegal in the 1st round of Leinster? Would Derry reach the AI semis if they played Offaly in the 1st round of Ulster and Westmeath in round 2?

4KHDoneill (Derry) - Posts: 182 - 25/07/2015 09:57:03    1758639

I have to say I do not agree with Connaught and Munster semi-finalists entering Qualifier Round 2. A team can be get a bye to a Munster and Connaught semi-final and thus avoid Qualifier Round 1 by default. In fairness in Munster's case the bye to a semi-final is earned on the field of play by making the final of the previous year and thus setting a standard.

I've mooted an idea before of the following:

The Tommy Murphy Cup should be restored with the following 8 teams:
2 Munster quarter-final losers
2 Connaught quarter-final losers
1 Ulster preliminary round loser
3 Leinster preliminary round losers

All provinces should have to agree a seeding so that the lower placed league teams start off in their respective provincial first round. Simply play TMC quarter-finals, semi-finals and final with the winner earning a place back in the championship.

The qualifiers should be run as follows;
Qualifier Round 1 (12 teams):
2 Munster semi-final losers
2 Connaught semi-final losers
4 Ulster quarter-final losers
4 Leinster quarter-final losers

Qualifier Round 2 (6 teams):
6 Qualifier Round 1 winners

Qualifier Round 3 (8 teams):
3 Qualifier Round 1 winners
2 Ulster semi-final losers
2 Leinster semi-final losers
1 Tommy Murphy Cup winner

Qualifier Round 4 (8 teams):
4 Provincial runners-up
4 Qualifier Round 3 winners

The above offers a compromise solution for the issue of different numbers of teams in each provincial championship. While Munster and Connaught finalists possibly have a shorter route to that stage, the Ulster and Leinster semi-final losers would have a shorter qualifier route. As per the advice of managers of counties who did compete in the Tommy Murphy Cup previously, the competition can offer a route back into the championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 25/07/2015 10:39:01    1758662

4KHDoneill
County: Derry
Posts: 176

1758639
yes Derry played 4 games this year and 3 of them were against strong teams whereas Dublin have yet to have a test, if you look at a soccer tournament it is fair as it is about luck of the draw whereas if Dublin wins the All-Ireland you can't say it is totally earned as would they win it if they faced Donegal in the 1st round of Leinster? Would Derry reach the AI semis if they played Offaly in the 1st round of Ulster and Westmeath in round 2?

Not sure about you reaching the semi finals. You would probably be still in the championship though if you avoided Dublin up to the Leinster final.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 25/07/2015 12:57:05    1758712

Guys I kinda disagree with some of the comments. First off the Munster championship is weak. They usually have two good teams, I'd say Cork aren't good yet, they are transitioning. So Kerry had a cake walk, and made it hard.

Connaught Championship...... Reference last weekend, enough said.

Leinster...... Gets a lot of stick but Westmeath would probably beat half of Ulster and most of Connaught and all of Munster besides Kerry/Cork.

Galway have beaten two Ulster teams? And they aren't in the top bracket. Wexford beat down.

My point is this notion that "Dublin have it easy" is nonsense. It's as easy as Kerry in Munster, Mayo in Connaught.

At the moment Ulster have 2 good teams. Outside that Tyrone can cause a conundrum for anybody on their day, but can be equally poor on their day. Tyrone actually play better against the top teams, even when they were a top team, they almost had that underdog mentality. But the rest of Ulster is crap. Nobody gets hammered as they play systems that lead to low scoring affairs.

All the talk of being tested...... Dublin have a Championship game each week as the A v B games are savage. The top teams only realistically get tested for the quarters on. Anybody who thinks Kerry have been tested needs their head tested. In fact I reckon Kildare might turn Cork over. If it happens, it will prove my theory. Even if Cork get a tight game, it will prove my theory. And my Theory is.....outside the top 6 teams, there is another bracket, and another again. And these teams aren't dissimilar and can beat each other. But none will beat a top outfit who are flying. Kerry on a bad day, with the help of a ref, drew with Cork. They were significantly better in the replay. But not at their optimum, and they still won. Mayo won in second gear. Donegal sauntered to an Ulster Final without playing great. They lost to a top team.

The real championship has just started. You don't get second chances now.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 25/07/2015 14:48:28    1758741

The standard set by Kerry and to a degree by the Munster runners-up is underestimated. Dublin have now set a similar standard in Leinster. You would in fairness expect Meath and Kildare to offer a better challenge. Mayo have been setting the standard out west. Galway might be closing the gap, time will tell. Ulster has two counties at the top level right now. Tyrone are not too far behind. The clear top 6 at the moment are Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Monaghan, Donegal and the Munster runners-up. Tyrone are on a level on their own. Galway, Down and Derry are on the next level.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 25/07/2015 15:50:10    1758758

Leinster...... Gets a lot of stick but Westmeath would probably beat half of Ulster and most of Connaught and all of Munster besides Kerry/Cork.

Really!!! Westmeath beat half of Ulster? They just got hammered by the team that were second lowest ranked in Ulster? Leinster gets a lot of stick because it deserves it. You have one team in Division 1 and to teams in Division 2 that will be staying there if they are not relegated to Divsion 3.

The Munster championship is not competitive either - nor is the the Connacht championship. That is why they should all be scrapped.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 25/07/2015 18:46:15    1758809

Westmeath wouldn't beat half of Ulster . What a ridiculous comment . The bottom line is that Donegal , Tyrone , Monaghan have to peak in mid May . Kerry and Mayo peak for August . The people that don't see this have never played football . Also people saying that there are only two good sides in Ulster : how stupid is this . It's about the sum of all it's parts . Ulster has 8 sides in the top two divisions , ulster doesn't have the best team or the second best but as a whole it's the best . No offence to London but if they made an ulster final , I'd be signing myself in .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 25/07/2015 18:57:58    1758821

To Legendzxix -
I wouldn't be offended if you mentioned my county by name :)
Also, your plan is not too bad - though, I prefer a rd winner to advance one step ahead of the loser - you have Muns SF losers in rd 1 but losing finalist in rd 4 (gap of 3, worse than now), or Lein QF losers in rd 1, SF losers in rd 3. All told, I'd adopt your ideas 2nd to my own.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 25/07/2015 19:49:36    1758850

Ps......Kerry were tested.

Theory proven!!!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 25/07/2015 20:18:33    1758860

Now, that Leinster side has accounted for a team many believed were on a par with the current AI Champions, people will stop foolishly claiming Leinster football is a soft touch.

Cork aren't what people thought, and Kerry have still to be tested in this years championship.

Real competition started yesterday.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 26/07/2015 10:05:40    1759002

JayP
County: Dublin
Posts: 1145

1759002
Now, that Leinster side has accounted for a team many believed were on a par with the current AI Champions, people will stop foolishly claiming Leinster football is a soft touch.

Sorry. You are the one making the foolish remarks. You are taking one result to make your point. Leinster is by far the weakest because every team that plays Dublin are beaten before the game even starts. All games involving Dublin for the last three years has been totally one sided non-event. Leinster teams are falling in their leagues (Offaly/Longford from Div 4 are the exception). These are the facts JP. You can ignore these if you wish and take one freak result (do you honestly think Kildare are 10 points better than Cork? ie if they played us over and over again, they would beat us by 10 points?) and make a generalisation from this.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 26/07/2015 10:27:51    1759020

The extra games are fine, if your squad can remain injury free. But when the squad is not, and this includes your go to men, then the extra games are about as useful as an extra few furlongs in a race where the field run a few less.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 26/07/2015 11:26:43    1759050

I don't want to take away from Kildare's win but Cork just had a six day turnaround. They were on a hiding to nothing.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 26/07/2015 11:32:25    1759056

I really like legendzxix's suggested format change. I don't like Omahant's, gives early losers 3 chances in the championship, the qualifiers lose interest quickly enough as it is with teams having 2 chances. Plus why do teams losing in TMC round 1 and 2 get a 3rd chance but not the 3rd and 4th round losers.

The championship is definitely unfair, it'll be interesting to see some of the county boards' proposals for a new championship. What I'd want from a new system.

Retain provincial championship as a pathway to All-Ireland success, ideally with provincial champions still reaching the quarter finals.

Shorten how long it takes to run off the provincial championships, 6 or 7 weeks is probably ideal.

Make the competition a bit fairer. I'd think reducing the significance of reaching a provincial final would be a start, I don't think making a provincial final deserves a last 12 spot. I also don't think semi-finalists in Munster and Connaught deserves to enter the qualifiers later than Ulster or Leinster quarterfinalists.

I wouldn't want the significance of the league to be upped too much if it is still being played at the same time as the club All Ireland series and the Sigerson. It'd be unfair on counties with players playing in those competition. If the league does take on more significance it's profile should be raised and it should be played in April and May. Leaves less time between league ending and championship starting. My preference would be on the league becoming more significant. Possibly have the league affect which round a team joins the qualifiers

A "B" championship has to be an improvement on the current qualifier system. I don't think a 16 team straight knockout competition with entry to next season's "A" championship is an improvement. I think the opportunity to reach an AI quarter final in the current year has more prestige than reaching a B championship final even if it that is playing alongside the proper All Ireland final. Look at Fermanagh and Kildare this season depending on the system you use for making the Sam Maguire competition they may not have been in it this year. The qualifiers have been good for other non-traditional counties down the years. Longford this year were even a relative success getting a couple of wins under their belt.

Finish the championship before September to give club championships more time to be played off properly.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 26/07/2015 15:53:05    1759196

Donegalman
County: All

The extra games are fine, if your squad can remain injury free. But when the squad is not, and this includes your go to men, then the extra games are about as useful as an extra few furlongs in a race where the field run a few less.

Agree. The problem for Donegal (and indeed any other Ulster county) is that if you are drawn to play the preliminary round you have to be at a fairly high level of form to ensure progress IE playing Tyrone on the 17th of May requires that you are in top form to win, maintaining that until 19th of July on to the third sunday in August takes some doing. Other teams like Dublin, for example, can tailor their progress as they do not need to be in top form for such a long period of time. As was stated by our Kerry friend Ulster needs to get its house in order regarding seeding, or at least some kind of exemption in subsequent years if you are drawn in the preliminary round

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 26/07/2015 16:17:28    1759211

To Whammo86 - addressing your points -
I use the current 2x 16 (Prov SF 16 and Qual Rd 1 or TMC 16) to put all 32 on a fairer ground, by all 32 having 2 chances for at least 2 more rds.
A Lein QF loser in Rd 1 and a Muns SF bye team have equal assurance of a last chance in Qual Rd 2 - this means a 3rd chance overall for some.
The FRC's 4x8 gave all 2 chances - with 3 chances for 4 teams - I think this didn't pass because nobody wanted to cross prov borders - my 2x16 doesn't have this problem.
Yes, I have 3 chances for the 1st 12 TMC teams only - with the SFs straight KO. This is similar to current Prov champs having only 1 chance in the AI QFs.
I agree with completing the Prov matches over 6-7 weeks - and with diluting the value of losing Prov finals.
Accordingly, I place the Prov losing finalists in Qual Rd 3 - in fact, the 4th Rd takes in 2 champs as well.
I think giving the weakest 12 counties a 3rd chance would not result in a twice-beaten AI Champ - but even if so, a champ with 6 wins and 2 losses isn't unworthy.
To be honest - I limit the 3rd chance to make the Maths work - I need 10 teams in Rd 4 for the 5 winners to the AI QFs.
Finally, I split the TMC 16 into a Stronger 8 paired up in 3 rds - and a Weaker 8 (playing for the TM Shield and a TMC final berth) over 3 rds, before the TM Final in rd 4.
Personally, I believe has something for everyone - EXCEPT - round robin fans.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 26/07/2015 17:03:50    1759252