I think this was a good thread starting off but maybe people started to take the debate in a strange direction. I think the idea that there is a bluebrint to follow is correct, does not necessarily mean replicating tactics, but it shows that counties with a small population and a small number of clubs can still be successful. Keep hearing from smaller counties that we cannot compete purely due to not having the same selection as bigger counties. Its obviously an advantage to have a greater selection, but Monaghan are showing over the past few years that a lot of work will pay dividends. It will take having a group of special players coming along together, but that often can result from years of hard work with development teams from a young age. This is what smaller counties need to be doing, I presume most are doing, but Monaghan are seeing the result of this now. Sligo have had periods in the past when we were competing against some of the best teams (02,03) but unfortunately were not able to transform this into provincial titles like Monaghan have done. Credit to them, they deserve it. It will be interesting to see how long their success lasts - when some of this team move on will there be able replacements to keep the continuity??

As a matter of interest, how many clubs are there in Monaghan - how many senior clubs?

sligoNo1 (Sligo) - Posts: 45 - 24/07/2015 09:28:16    1758265

I think this was a good thread starting off but maybe people started to take the debate in a strange direction.

Might have went off on a bit of a roundabout due to misinterpretations but the points being made are very relevant to the debate about what is a blueprint for a successful (smaller) County or what all factors do you include or can you even have one which would work across the board. Wouldn't necessary say strange myself.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 24/07/2015 09:53:00    1758276

Monaghan have 10 Senior, 10 Intermediate and 10 Junior. Scotstown are the only club with a Senior and Junior team, so really 29 clubs, having lost a club recently Fergal O Hanlons. I think Monaghan played it very smart this championship, by running into a Cavan and Fermanagh defence, and losing the ball in the process. This lead Rory Gallagher to assume they would continue this route and only found out on the day that we had changed tactics. Malachy was never in doubt about beating Cavan and threw on the old guard for the last 10 mins to complete the dupe and put Cavan to the sword.

drumlinbelt (Monaghan) - Posts: 179 - 24/07/2015 09:53:43    1758278

I agree that it will take a more prolonged period of success to start looking at Monaghan as a template. Or possibly an all ireland.

I think one thing that has been missed here is the issue of a good manager/management team. Banty couldn't get Monaghan to the level he wanted but Malachy Orourke has managed it.

Similarly - there was no real template in Donegal as such until Jim took over. We all know what followed.

I have said before that I think a top manager would have a lot of success with the current Cavan senior team (and the next 3-4 years of underage players coming thru). If we were to go down the route of bringing in a top manager would that be following the Monaghan/Donegal template? We have got all the structures at underage level bang on, former players involved who guys can look up to, guys who are not long out of the game themselves. But what is the next step? What is the difference between much anticipated success or a generation of talent wasted?

What will decide which side of that fine line we fall?

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 24/07/2015 09:53:53    1758279

I think Monaghan played it very smart this championship, by running into a Cavan and Fermanagh defence, and losing the ball in the process.

Monaghan have played a very smart Championship to date drumlinbelt and especially against Donegal where they changed the way they approached the game and I believe caught Donegal a bit on the hop.

cavanman - agree that the manager could be the difference between yourselves pushing on from the success at U-21 level and remaining stagnant enough at Senior. You obviously have the correct structures in place outside Senior level and again it highlights that getting the perfect combination right throughout all County structures to get success or push on is key.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 24/07/2015 10:39:18    1758302

I think Monaghan have done a serious job in turning their fortunes in the space of 10-15 years. The early 00's monaghan were a laugh, Rory Gallagher scored 3-9 on them in 2002, they were a basement division 4 team or 2B as it was then. Colm Coyle laid foundations in 2003, got them believing and they had some great moral wins. Banty took them to new heights, he made them believe further and finally MOR got them over the line. I believe there is 15 players in each county that can go toe to toe with anyone if the players are well trained have a system in place under a good management team. Wexford went toe to toe with Dublin a few times but have fallen away same with Kildare.

222 (UK) - Posts: 694 - 24/07/2015 13:39:28    1758421

offside rule....Urrrgh. Read your own posts. You made your first point re that Monaghan get more money from the GAA. This is simply not true in any shape or form. Grants last year don't equate constant financing….What about this don't you get??? There are any amount of businesses in Antrim that the organisation can and should reach out to…..That's what happens to make the shortfall in other counties! You start peddling on about the side issues in GAA admin that affect your own county and I am simply stating that perhaps if Antrim ran their organisation ala Monaghan and many other counties maybe success would be more forthcoming…. We are one of the smallest counties in the country yet for slightly over a decade we have brought national silverware in albeit at a higher level in the last three year. The reasons Antrim don't do this are plentiful I am sure but the bottom line is the organisation is poor (to me as an outsider anyway) Hence all of this is a blue print to follow.

By the way….Down have won all 12 of their championships since Antrim won their last one, they won sam 5 times too in that time. For heaven's there was a thread on here a few weeks back about whether Down or Cavan were the 'aristocrats' of Ulster football. You really think Antrim are a factor in that debate? Monaghan barely get a look in if you want to go all history on it. The Ulster hurling championships are (unfortunately) a lower tier competition. Antrim are the face of Ulster hurling but in terms of intercounty play beyond Ulster they are bottom rung. We both know that. Good clubs - Poor county structure.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 24/07/2015 13:44:04    1758423

sligoNo1...Only 10 senior clubs. We do ok I guess! Really things wax and wane in Ulster. Its a good time for us and Donegal. It was Tyrone and Armagh....Down and Derry in the past. Most sides get a go at some point. I think Cavan are very good side. They went a bit south this year but probably are on the verge of winning an anglo celt. I will be surprised if they don't in the next 2-3 years.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 24/07/2015 13:53:54    1758426

Lol Jaysus wept. Will keep this one as brief as I can.
I don't need to read my own posts to know what I have been saying but lets look at what my first post said:

I think the title is a bit off Muckross as it should be Monaghan: a blueprint for Counties to beat a Donegaltype style. Still a lot of other things to think about from a smaller County perspective to get to a level where you can take on this blueprint. Take the finances for starters (which allow you to put proper structures in place to get your players to a level similar to Monaghan) - Monaghan are comparable with Donegal and Tyrone in Income and way ahead of the other Ulster Counties and other Counties in the other Provinces. They got more money in payments from HQ than a lot of Counties of a similar size and in fact more than larger counties - like our own. Only a couple of quick examples but I think that there is a lot more to consider for the smaller county than just how you set yourself up on the field.

Yes I mentioned Finances but not as the sole reason - the important sentence above is the one highlighted with the operative words being 'lots of other things' and 'for starters' i.e there are many reasons and the Finances side is an example of one. You just seem to have seen Monaghan and went in to overdrive.

If Monaghan were placed 15 in the ranking of the 36 'Counties' in 2014 then it means they got more money than 21 other 'Counties' from HQ alone - that should be simple enough to understand though I am beginning to wonder.... :-)

Of course Antrim probably has more businesses than a lot of other Counties given the population centres we have. Getting a business to buy in to a County GAA scene is a different matter and if you don't have the correct structures in place or aren't being ran properly then this is made harder. You say that if Antrim ran their County like a County like Monaghan then we might be more successful - well no shit Sherlock but that is what I am saying - you need to get it right on a number of levels such as Finance, Development, Structures, how you are ran etc etc.

And no I don't think Antrim are a factor in the Aristocrats debate - I have merely been trying to ascertain what criteria you were using for your statement that Down are a more successful GAA County than Antrim and figured out you couldn't have been talking about the success within each County in titles across the codes as that's simply not the case. So is it date specific now? And does it exclude certain areas of the GAA? You made the statement and I was curious to how you rationalised it.

This whole topic is around other teams following the blueprint as per the article - that article dealt with how Monaghan Senior team prepared their tactics for the game to counter Donegal. So to say that how the Monaghan team set themselves up as one match is a blueprint other 'smaller' Counties should follow for success is too simplistic given the many factors - which is the point I have been making.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 24/07/2015 14:53:34    1758456

You say that if Antrim ran their County like a County like Monaghan then we might be more successful - well no shit Sherlock but that is what I am saying - you need to get it right on a number of levels such as Finance, Development, Structures, how you are ran etc etc.


Elementary.... Maybe they could follow a plan to implement that? A plan or strategy or design or a blue pr....wait a second? what?

Ok just focus on the article in the first post and not the title of the thread. Got it.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 24/07/2015 16:43:06    1758517

See, your last sentence there just has shown what I believed in that you haven't actually got it. The title and the opening post go hand in hand, that is you start a new topic, give it a title then explain in your opening post as to what the title is in reference to. The blueprint in the title is in reference to the article which is around how youse set yourself up against Donegal, the opening post even says:

"When you compare the Monaghan team & their manager to some of the other counties out there it is obvious to see that graft & guile will get you places moaning & crying won't."

Got it now?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 24/07/2015 17:11:10    1758526

Right it is like this. Monaghan are enjoying a very fine run at provincial level this past few years and should be complimented on how they have got it together - bit like Donegal really without the next step i.e. All Ireland level.

However take anything Jim McGuinness says and view it with a bit of suspicion. With Monaghan lined up to hit Donegal again soon provided Tyrone or Galway do not get in the way Jim will be blowing as much smoke up Monaghans ass as he possibly can.

Regarding this blueprint idea. Well for me it would be like seeing Monaghan bake a sponge using eggs, flour and milk then giving Antrim some eggs, potatoes and fairy liquid and asking them to produce the same.

You see while Monaghan are doing the correct things for them some of in fact many of the these things could be adopted elsewhere but they would not be a blueprint for winning an Ulster title because the circumstances in each county differ, the priorities differ, the deomgraphics differ, the mindsets differ etc.

To suggest one approach fits all would be like suggesting a manager should take the same approach for every player who ever plays under him yet we know that the best managers are the man managers who know what buttons to press, who to put an arm round etc to get the max out of his squad.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 24/07/2015 18:58:00    1758560

Im really getting sick off this crap again.Can pundits,media and other people from all over this country not take off their hats to us and say that we have a really good football team?

Theres no blue print to follow,there has been no underage belt,we have won an Under 21 Ulster title in 1999,and a minor Ulster title in 2013,of which 1 player has made it onto our Senior team.

Yes most of last Sundays team lost Minor Ulster Finals in 2001,2008.

Our Neighbours Cavan have won 1 Minor and 4 Under 21 titles since 2011,but cant get near an Ulster Senior Final nevermind win it.Why because they havent got the calibere of players we have......They 2 Hughes,Colin Walshe,Dessie Mone,Dick Clerkin and the brilliant Conor McManus,all of which put Cavan to the sword in 2nd gear back in May.

All Week im listening to how Donegal were poor and off there game,they were aet alive on Sunday,only for us sitting back and trying to defend a 5 point lead with over 20 minutes to go,we would have won by 6-8 points handy.

If Micheal Murphy,Paddy McBreaty,James O'Donague or Bernard Brogan done what Conor McManus done on Sunday they would be applauded to the last all week,Vinny Corey didnt give Murphy a kick off it Sunday,yet no word off that either,more said about how Murphy wasnt himself,must happen just when they play Monaghan.

2014 we came through they tough side of the draw,Tyrone,then Armagh after a replay,Thats 3 tough games,with Conor McManus and Kieran Hughes carrying serious injuries,along with the absences of Eoin Lennon and Neil McAdam.

Yet when Donegal scraped a 3 point win they were Applauded by all the media as been back to themselfs,and we were branded a flash in the pan!

The Hardest provincial Championship has been won by us 2 years out of 3 yet we have again not received any RESPECT for doing this.

Disgusted isnt the word,but when i sit back and listen to the people who spout this rubbish i just think to myself how they must be feeling inside as their own Countys fold up early in the Championship and lay down for their annual beating,while we march on to Croke Park as the 2015 ULSTER SENIOR FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS.

Respect us ffs.

hardcore (Monaghan) - Posts: 1366 - 24/07/2015 20:44:53    1758586

hardcore not sure who that is aimed at but I certainly have a lot of respect for Monaghan and really hope that they are still developing and ready to hit big at All Ireland level - yes I have had some reservations but if you'se continue to come on as you have been, an already top team could become a standout team.

It is this 'everybody should just follow Monaghans blueprint to be swimming in success' bulls*** that I am not having. As you passionately pointed out, there is a wee bit more to it than that.

Naysayer (Antrim) - Posts: 2071 - 24/07/2015 21:10:11    1758598

Not surprised to see Monaghan doing well. From memory Kerry defeated Monaghan in an All Ireland semi just a few years ago. Not sure how long they have been Div 1. But any team that survives in Div 1 is a good team with strength in depth. Monaghan's success proves that lack of under-age success doesn't impede senior success. A team just needs one or two good minor players each year coming through. Going off topic a bit but my own county haven't had underage success since 2007 but last two years we got Evan O Carroll , Paul Kingston , James Finn , Tom Shiel.
Ross Munnelly didn't win any underage medals.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 24/07/2015 22:02:33    1758624

Crikey
I think that was a replayed quarter final
It was in 2007 and played before the All Ireland Semi Final when Limerick beat Waterford

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 25/07/2015 10:50:26    1758667

Just looked it up. All Ireland quarter final Kerry 1-12 1-11 Monaghan . Kerry went on to defeat Cork in the final.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 25/07/2015 13:33:21    1758719