Soma
County: UK

Monaghans record in the championship in the last 5 years against non-Ulster sides is really interesting
2010 - Lost to Kildare by 4 points
2011 - Lost to Offaly by 8 points
2012 - Lost to Laois by 6 points
2013 - Didn't play any non-Ulster side
2014 - Beat Kildare after extra time, lost to Dublin by 17 points.

In Fairness you cant really take to much out of the 2011 & 2012 seasons as the team was shadow of their actual talent under that management team. The last two years is not enough to judge on as we have only played 2 leinster teams and Dublin are a tough out for anybody in the country. I will say tho, that we have left a couple of games behind us when we got to the big stage in Croker. I think that is more down to a lack of experience at the time and also the large pitch doesn't exactly suit our defensive style. I think Malachy will have them better prepared this year for it.

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 21/07/2015 19:10:43    1757194

sceptical
County: Cavan
Posts: 243

1756966
Look here monaghan have a team of hardened veterans who in any other county would dissappear into obscurity as journeymen. Monaghans template was to be lucky enough to have unearthed a talent like mcmanus. If cavan meath down armagh or teams of that standard had him it would push them up a notch.


Thats fine but we had Mcmanus since bantys era and he was never considered the talent he is for the last few years, in fact he would have been seen as second to Tommy freeman in the county during the early years. Its just the set up and managment have got the most out of these boys. McManus has flourished since o'rourke took the helm. Other counties do have talent like McManus. Armagh have Jamie Clarke, ye have some great footballers in Cavan, Clarke, R Dunne, McKiernan, Mackey, Keating (if he was playing) and M Dunne.

I honestly wouldn't put it all down to McManus. We have Top top talent all over the field. Two allstars and quite a number of all star nominees. Dessie Mone has been nominated 4 times now. Thing is, we have had similar talent in the past but nothing ever came of it.

Our hardened vets played a minor role last sunday. Dick Clerkin had a cameo role (albeit quite effective) and Finaly came on in injury time. Lennon and Vinny Corey would have been the elder statesman out there.

My Conclusion. Get someone like Malachy O'Rourke if you want your boys to win medals.

supermon (Monaghan) - Posts: 1073 - 21/07/2015 19:21:04    1757201

21/07/2015 18:45:50
Soma
County: UK
Posts: 1074

They were still very competitive in Ulster both them years Shaggy, losing to Tyrone in 2011 by 2 points, then beating Antrim before losing to Down by 1 point in 2012.

It really doesn't tell the full story to say that we were competitive in 2012 by losing by a point to Down. We were 9 points up just before half time in that game so it was a pretty spectacular collapse, there's no way I could see something similar happening now. So only for that awful second half it could easily have been 4 Donegal-Monaghan finals in a row, I don't think I'd have liked to meet Donegal that year though!

patk (Monaghan) - Posts: 936 - 21/07/2015 20:13:04    1757229

Rightstuff I got a right chuckle from that post, not sure if you are serious or not. Are you telling us Division 1 Westmeath and Kildare were 2 of the best 8 teams in Ireland last year, better than even your beloved Donegal? Ulster teams do well in the league because the defensive game most sides use suits winter conditions - come summer and championship it is almost a different sport.
White.n.blue I haven't put up them results to have a go at Monaghan, I am delighted to see ye go so well. I just have very little time for suggestions that other counties players are not trying. Monaghan are in a great position because they have a manger who seems to suit them perfectly, some excellent players and a realistic chance each year of winning their province. This same group of players though have a very ordinary record outside Ulster. Would they have the same chance of silverware if they were in Leinster - would Malachy O'Rourke even take on a team like that in Leinster knowing each year they need to beat Dublin to win silverware? I am not so sure. In the last 9 years Monaghan have played 9 non-Ulster teams - they beat Wicklow and Kildare after extra time and have lost the other 7 which included defeats to Laois, Kildare, Offaly and Wexford. They really need to show major improvements on that this year, but the first non-Ulster team they are likely to face is a very strong Mayo side.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 21/07/2015 20:15:42    1757233

21/07/2015 20:15:42
Soma
County: UK
Posts: 1076

White.n.blue I haven't put up them results to have a go at Monaghan, I am delighted to see ye go so well. I just have very little time for suggestions that other counties players are not trying. Monaghan are in a great position because they have a manger who seems to suit them perfectly, some excellent players and a realistic chance each year of winning their province. This same group of players though have a very ordinary record outside Ulster. Would they have the same chance of silverware if they were in Leinster - would Malachy O'Rourke even take on a team like that in Leinster knowing each year they need to beat Dublin to win silverware? I am not so sure. In the last 9 years Monaghan have played 9 non-Ulster teams - they beat Wicklow and Kildare after extra time and have lost the other 7 which included defeats to Laois, Kildare, Offaly and Wexford. They really need to show major improvements on that this year, but the first non-Ulster team they are likely to face is a very strong Mayo side.

Not having a go here Soma, but your sample size is very selective, why 9 years? If you go back one more to 2005 you'd see we had a few non-Ulster wins in the qualifiers before losing to Tyrone. In our best period of the 00's, 07-08, we won three tough games against good Ulster opposition(Donegal x2, Derry), before narrowly losing to an excellent Kerry team. It's not as awful a record as you're presenting it as, and we've often been unlucky in the qualifiers in that we have drawn alot of Ulster teams rather than play different teams around the country. The Laois and Offaly defeats stand out of course, but morale was so low those years I don't think there's many teams we'd have won against to be honest.

patk (Monaghan) - Posts: 936 - 22/07/2015 08:07:22    1757324

Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Monaghan received 39000 euro for game development last year.....the second lowest amount paid out to any county. The GAA publish their accounts every year and the funding is clear for all to see.

seanfinn - I had looked at the 2014 figures before I made my post so was well aware of the figures - hence my comment and hence the good story.

Central Council distributed £39.5m as operating payments to Provinces, Counties and Clubs to underwrite their operating costs and defray the cost of their participation in the various competitions. When you look specifically at the 36 'Counties' (including NY, London etc) the total given was £18.8m. When you order this by YTD Total Outlay (largest to smallest) Monaghan come in at number 16 out of 36 with a total outlay of just under £0.5m.

But look, I wasn't having a go at Monaghan in my previous post. I was just saying that the title of the thread was a bit of a misnomer and not because Monaghan should or shouldn't be called a 'smaller' county or how much or little money they get or can generate but because you can't take how a team set up and perform in a particular match as a general panacea for any County which hasn't been hitting the heights to suddenly turn their fortunes around. I was making the point that one 'smaller' county could be in a better position than another 'smaller' county to get their structures in place to push on. Yes you pointed out the figure for games development but I wasn't talking about specific areas of the income but more the overall income which is coming in to the County in a particular year (2014 in this case) to help get structures in place. As I said in my second post I don't know what all ventures counties have going or who they have buying in to the drive for a successful GAA scene in the County so in that case we have to use whatever tangible figures we have.

And for those interested in the ranking of the allocation of that £18.8m across the Counties:

1. Dublin 19. Laois
2. Galway 20. Derry
3. Roscommon 21. Meath
4. Kilkenny 22. Tyrone
5. Tipperary 23. Armagh
6. Donegal 24. Longford
7. Kerry 25. Offaly
8. Mayo 26. Antrim
9. Limerick 27. Down
10. Cork 28. Carlow
11. Sligo 29. Westmeath
12. Cavan 30. Leitrim
13. Kildare 31. Fermanagh
14. Clare 32. Louth
15. Monaghan 33. London
16. Wicklow 34. New York
17. Wexford 35. Warwickshire
18. Waterford 36. Lancashire

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 22/07/2015 09:07:11    1757332

Patk I take your point, I originally only used the past 5 years as with the exception of Clerkin, Finlay and Mone the current team is very different to anything before that. Also, I agree with you that you have had good results against big Ulster teams in the qualifiers over the years as well - it is notable how competitive you have been both in the province and against Ulster teams in the qualifiers, and how badly you have struggled against non-Ulster teams. Anyway, so nobody can claim I am picking years to suit myself here is Monaghans record against non-Ulster teams since the qualifiers were introduced
2001 - None played
2002 - Lost to Louth by 6 points
2003 - Beat Westmeath by 2, lost to Meath by 4
2004 - Lost to Longford by 8
2005 - Beat London by 12, Wexford by 5, Louth by 1 (eventually lost to Tyrone)
2006 - Beat Wicklow by 10, lost to Wexford by 2
2007 - Lost to Kerry by 1
2008 - Lost to Kerry by 3
2009 - None played
2010 - Lost to Kildare by 4 points
2011 - Lost to Offaly by 8 points
2012 - Lost to Laois by 6 points
2013 - Didn't play any non-Ulster side
2014 - Beat Kildare after extra time, lost to Dublin by 17 points.
Of all the years, the biggest win against non-Ulster opponents was probably last year against an average Kildare side who looked like winning the game until Boulton was black carded. I know people say Monaghan were tired when they then played the Dubs, and they were, but the game was over at halftime.
You are right that in 2007 & 2008 Monaghan lost narrowly to excellent Kerry sides. Its worth remembering though that teams like Limerick & Tipperary in Munster have to beat at least one of Kerry or Cork every year, sometimes both, just to win a provincial medal. You can see why counties like this, and those who have to beat Dublin or Mayo as well to win a provincial, can become disheartened after a while from playing these sides in their first championship game each year. Sligo for example lost to Kerry by 1 point in 2009, similar to Monaghan the years before, reached the Connacht final in 2010 but have been unable to kick on in Connacht due to Mayo coming along with a very powerful team. Its not simply a case of Monaghan being successful because they are passionate or well organised, there are lots of different factors. Anyway, best of luck in the rest of the championship, I would love to see ye get another crack at Kerry in Croke Park.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2015 09:56:14    1757351

Monaghan are comparable with Donegal and Tyrone in Income and way ahead of the other Ulster Counties and other Counties in the other Provinces. They got more money in payments from HQ than a lot of Counties of a similar size and in fact more than larger counties - like our own.

@offside_rule I am not sure of the point you are trying then. Above in an earlier post you are implying Monaghan are in receipt of more money from the GAA than a lot of counties of a similar size. They aren't. Look at the balance sheet and what is provided for games development. The rest of the line items are inconsequential in terms of continuous funding for a county as they are not annual payments. If they were….surely Roscommon would be all conquering? Monaghan fund raise and work hard for outside sponsorship. Every county is entitled to do so. There are fewer registered players and clubs in Monaghan than every other Ulster county with the exception of Fermanagh. So…..we are the second smallest county in Ulster in GAA terms. I personally think that should set some standards or at least give other counties some belief that they can challenge the perceived larger teams.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 22/07/2015 10:01:46    1757356

Patk I take your point, I originally only used the past 5 years as with the exception of Clerkin, Finlay and Mone the current team is very different

Soma - I guess you and I differ on using 'Very' again. Just like Donegal were the the very heavy favourites last week :) maybe it should be with the exception of D.Hughes, McManus, Clerkin, Finlay, Mone, Corey, McAdam, Lennon, Gollogly....pretty sure they were all in the squad that got to Ulster final and All ireland QF in 2007.

This Monaghan team under O'Rourke has not really had an opportunity to play sides from outside Ulster in the championship. Only Kildare and Dublin. Dublin - as you correctly point out give us a hiding. Kildare....Can't say i agree with your synopsis there. There was v little between the teams that evening and the conditions added the error rate. The only thing that troubled me that evening was how soaked I got sitting in croke park.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 22/07/2015 10:40:34    1757385

Sean fair enough I will have to double check when using 'very' in future. How many of the starters in 2007 started on Sunday?- was it just Corey and Mone? You can see the point I was trying to make.
Regarding there being very little between yourselves and Kildare last year, this is what I am really trying to get across. That Kildare team were ridiculed because they had been well beaten by Meath in Leinster, who were themselves hammered by Dublin. Unless there is an almighty upset, none of the Kildare squad can realistically expect to win a Leinster title in the next 5 years, so strong is Dublins stranglehold there. How then do you expect Kildare players, or players from other counties in a similar situation, to fully commit to training in winter with the likely result being another year without silverware and being called 'pathetic', 'useless', 'spineless' etc when they inevitably lose badly to Dublin? At least Monaghan know if they commit to things fully they can possibly win Ulster, and can then take on the bigger sides with some confidence.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 22/07/2015 11:00:49    1757401

The overall point I am making is that you can't use one match as a blueprint for how to get 'smaller' counties up to a standard and how do you even define a small county. I was then giving one example (of many) to show how there can be different factors you need to take in to consideration. You have used the clubs as a measure and that's fine but if you look at the number of football clubs in Antrim who are putting adult teams out there are 37 clubs. Monaghan as a comparative has 30 clubs putting out adult teams. If you take the total teams from the Annual Report then we have 534 to Monaghan's 307 - this means that we as a county make up 2.7% of all GAA teams and Monaghan make up 1.5%. Yet the money from HQ to our two Counties in 2014 out of the total pot has us getting 1.8% to your 2.5%. And you might say these total payments are inconsequential but they are not as this is still money that the Counties don't have to find themselves towards their annual running costs.

But to take the ranking of Counties per teams playing then the Counties who are down round the bottom with Monaghan are Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow, Sligo, Roscommon, London and Derry. When you compare this with what money was received from HQ then Fermanagh were 31st out of 36, Leitrim were 30th, Longford were 24th, Carlow were 28th, London were 33rd, with both Sligo and Roscommon getting more in 11th and 3rd respectively. And if you look at what Counties got grants, Monaghan were one of 20 Counties to get with only 4 of the above Counties also getting.

Of course there are plenty of other factors - take the potential pool of players at adult level (say 18-35) within a County. Yes Antrim has a big population compared to most other Counties but you then could factor in socio-demographic issues, the fact that over half the population wouldn't ever consider even touching an O'Neills ball, the fact that when you go in to North Antrim you don't even have Football clubs bar 2 who are dual (and playing in the lowest Division of the Football) then we could be classed a small county. And I am sure many Counties could make a similar case which again highlights the point it is hard to even define a 'small' team. There are also factors like businesses etc who are prepared to invest and some counties who are classed as 'small' counties probably are a lot better supported than other Counties in the same category. And I am sure there are umpteen more factors - which is getting back to my overall point.

As I said, this isn't aimed at Monaghan - just the fact that they were the 'small' team which the post is about then I took them as the benchmark.
.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 22/07/2015 11:38:50    1757425

You have to be full of admiration for Monaghan for what they are achieving and have achieved over the last number of years.2 Ulster titles in 3 years and beating Donegal in those two. Plus they kick the idea of needing under-age success out the gate.

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 22/07/2015 11:48:38    1757433

Monaghan are a shining light for counties who think they'll never win anything, just like Donegal, great role models.
As a result, the AI is wide open, hallelujah!!

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 22/07/2015 12:56:21    1757499

Soma
County: UK
Posts: 1078

1757401
Sean fair enough I will have to double check when using 'very' in future. How many of the starters in 2007 started on Sunday?- was it just Corey and Mone? You can see the point I was trying to make.
Regarding there being very little between yourselves and Kildare last year, this is what I am really trying to get across. That Kildare team were ridiculed because they had been well beaten by Meath in Leinster, who were themselves hammered by Dublin. Unless there is an almighty upset, none of the Kildare squad can realistically expect to win a Leinster title in the next 5 years, so strong is Dublins stranglehold there. How then do you expect Kildare players, or players from other counties in a similar situation, to fully commit to training in winter with the likely result being another year without silverware and being called 'pathetic', 'useless', 'spineless' etc when they inevitably lose badly to Dublin? At least Monaghan know if they commit to things fully they can possibly win Ulster, and can then take on the bigger sides with some confidence.

All the players listed are key to the squad still and Corey, McManus, Mone, McAdam and Lennon are mostly first choice. These guys have been on the road a while now. Even more of them since 2010. The have improved with each year on the most part. Eamon McEnaney did set a few things back confidence wise but still brought some fresh faces. Monaghan were beat out the gate by Tyrone in the ulster final in 2010, Donegal were beat out the gate by Armagh the same year in the qualifiers. In the last five years they have dominated Ulster. Donegal have gone even better to become All Ireland Champions and Runners up. See the point I am making? In 2010 Meath were Leinster champions...they ran the dubs close in 2012 and maybe even 2013...Clearly they are not unbeatable. If Leinster teams think like you outlined above and believe they will not lay a glove on the jackeens then they really have problems. The dubs have a truly fantastic side. However, I find it difficult to comprehend that no other team in Leinster can muster up the belief in the next 5 years to knock them off their perch or even run them close.

My view on Kildare is different from yours in that they look at Monaghan and anyone else and think….We can beat them. The reason they get labelled (by some, not me) as pathetic is they walk out against Dublin expecting a turkey shoot

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 22/07/2015 16:54:43    1757676

@Offside_Rule
As I say, look at the financial reports for every year….not just last year. The sums you are looking at vary each year depending on what each county board has sought funding for (stadium improvement, training facilities et cetera) that require payments to be made.
How much funding will be shown when Casement pk is getting paid for?? Anglo celts all round and presumably Sam and Liam will be toured around the glens when all that cash comes flowing in....
The natural resources are what makes the success - talent pool that is managed well and activists in the community. If the county board do not promote the games at all levels then this falls flat on its face. Antrim were in a football final 5-6 years ago…no building afterward though. Monaghan are not miles ahead of many of the other team in many ways. I put a lot of this down to O'Rourke and his management team coupled with the clubs pulling together.
Those socio-demographic issues affect all of Ulster GAA. It's much less in the three counties when compared to Antrim to be fair but can the same be said of Down? Almost identical demographics but the GAA community is stronger. Why is that?
It just reads like you are rationalising.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 22/07/2015 18:01:35    1757697

@Offside_Rule
As I say, look at the financial reports for every year….not just last year. The sums you are looking at vary each year depending on what each county board has sought funding for (stadium improvement, training facilities et cetera) that require payments to be made.
How much funding will be shown when Casement pk is getting paid for?? Anglo celts all round and presumably Sam and Liam will be toured around the glens when all that cash comes flowing in....
The natural resources are what makes the success - talent pool that is managed well and activists in the community. If the county board do not promote the games at all levels then this falls flat on its face. Antrim were in a football final 5-6 years ago…no building afterward though. Monaghan are not miles ahead of many of the other team in many ways. I put a lot of this down to O'Rourke and his management team coupled with the clubs pulling together.
Those socio-demographic issues affect all of Ulster GAA. It's much less in the three counties when compared to Antrim to be fair but can the same be said of Down? Almost identical demographics but the GAA community is stronger. Why is that?
It just reads like you are rationalising.

sean finn - I gather you are missing the point completely of my posts and explanations. Of course I know that each year will have different figures in there but it is just one example around the point that different Counties get different levels of income - be that from Croke Park, local businesses or whoever so again, to label a group of Counties under the one blanket title or have a one fix solution isn't realistic. If this was a witch hunt against Monaghan then I would have spent time going through accounts to make a case then insisted you sat on a set of scales opposite a duck. But as I keep saying its not. If it makes life easier re-read my posts and where you see Monaghan put in Sligo as they are comparable enough. Might as well have the Sligo ones on my back too. :-)

On the further points you made - I have always commended any County who puts in the hard work and has a sense of togetherness required to push on to a higher level. Nobody has ever said that money alone is the answer but while we have lots of people who give up their own time for no return across the levels, it still requires the County to have the financial ability to both run on a day to day basis as well as be able to put the correct structures in place to have a talent pool which allows you to push on. I also acknowledged that while I was giving our own situation as an example of other issues which can affect individual Counties that most Counties could probably give a good list of reasons too.

As for the Casement question - I have no doubt that having Ulsters HQ in Belfast will bring in more money to our County board - it only makes sense that if it is being utilised more and for big games etc that there is some financial gain for us. Does this equate to more Anglo-Celts and Sam Maguires - well, that requires the correct structures in place (as mentioned) and financial responsibility to get the talent pool in place to allow you to kick on. And as things are currently (and maybe have been for a while now) that is where our problem as a County lies. All the money in the world might not sort that.

And as for your assertion that Down has a stronger GAA community - how do you rationalise that? The GAA community in Antrim is very strong with a very strong club scene. Don't go confusing how a County is administered and ran with how strong the GAA is within that County.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/07/2015 12:16:11    1757924

And as for your assertion that Down has a stronger GAA community - how do you rationalise that? The GAA community in Antrim is very strong with a very strong club scene. Don't go confusing how a County is administered and ran with how strong the GAA is within that County.

This the crux of where we differ, how the GAA in ran is mutually exclusive to how that county succeeds. Every reason/excuse for a lack of county success in Antrim or anywhere else has a divergent point demonstrated elsewhere. The GAA community is not just players on the field, clearly there are some great football and hurling clubs in Antrim. Great on a national scale to boot. The talent is obvious. Its the admin behind it all. They need to get funding to develop the game. You made a point about a population that wouldn't touch an o'neills ball. Its identical in Down though. Similar size, population and demographics. More clubs, more players, more success. Why is that?

Do you believe if every effort that is undertaken by other Ulster sides was also done in Antrim you would still be bottom of the pile? I don't. Much closer to the top I would say. If you are at a disadvantage then you try to level things until you can do no more. Can Antrim (or any other team) do more? Fermanagh are the smallest county in GAA terms in Ulster....maybe one of the smallest in the country. They stand a very good chance of making an Ireland QF this year.

Earlier in the year Antrim had a player not even wearing the current team jersey. Thats something I would expect at Junior club level. Monaghan clearly get funding outside the of the GAA and that obviously has a huge benefit to bring a more proficient approach to on and off field activities. That is the blueprint. Not just a tactic of play or coaching but a way of approaching every aspect of how GAA is ran.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 23/07/2015 13:37:58    1757982

You are confusing me now in that I don't see how what you are saying is different to the point I am making. I am the one who has been saying from the off that you can't say there is one thing which can be pointed to for success in a County but a number of factors such as Finances, set-up (Admin etc)and many other reasons - the article pointed to how Monaghan set themselves up on the field and this is something other Counties (smaller) should be aiming to replicate. You seem to have taken issue with me using your County as an example to show how one factor (Finances) can be different and you have zoned in on this one point and are trying to make it the focal point of what my posts and brushing over the rest. As I say again and again, I could have picked a number of Counties other than Monaghan as an example but just picked yours as Monaghan was the focus of the topic. However, I am more than happy to keep responding.

You bring Down in again so let's look in a bit more detail - if we look at our Histories they have won 3 more Ulster Football Championships than us so along with the population, demographics etc which you say are quite similar well so is our success within the Province. If we expand this out to include all GAA activities (as you are talking about GAA traditions and community etc so therefore not exclusive to Football) well then our success in the Province across the codes and levels is far better e.g.

Football
Ulster Senior Football Championships
Down 12
Antrim 9

McKenna Cups
Down 11
Antrim 6

Dr Lagan Cup (Pre-cursor to McKenna)
Down 6
Antrim 3

Hurling
Ulster Senior Hurling Championships
Down 4
Antrim 55

(Across Senior, Junior, U21 etc the records I can see have us as 145 to Downs 39 though the last U21 win recorded on the stats for us was in 2006 yet we have won it most years between then and now too with last night being our 4th in a row so I know the figure for us is actually higher for Ulster titles).

Camogie
Can't find enough records to hand and in the time I have to give to this but would say they are quite comparable.

Handball
Again can't find records and not sure of the tradition or records of handball in Down but I do know that we have a strong tradition - especially around the Belfast clubs.

So with all this information does that make us a more successful GAA County overall or what criteria are you basing your assertion on?

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/07/2015 14:53:36    1758054

Oh and last night was the 7th in a row in the U21s and not the 4th.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/07/2015 15:45:20    1758082

Boring move on nothing to see here!!!!!!!!!!

RawDog (Monaghan) - Posts: 83 - 23/07/2015 16:02:54    1758094