I can't wait for the westmeath hammering to be over so we can park this year's championship for another year and begin the debates on changes to leinster.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 29/06/2015 16:11:26    1744826

gotmilk
County: Fermanagh
Posts: 2124

1744784
The Europa league is quite a highly thought of competition uncle fester...

...if you're a Liverpool fan!

xxB3B0Stunnahxx (USA) - Posts: 94 - 29/06/2015 17:19:47    1744923

If teams don't care about the league then why the hell would they care about a 'B' championship!! Who is going to really celebrate being the 17th best team in Ireland?? Bottom line is teams do try to win every game in the league, sure managers try new players but they have to do that sometime. The provincials can be brilliant, just look at yesterdays westmeath game. Without the provincials what have teams like westmeath (and monaghan) to play for? I'd much rather win an Ulster then be awarded the 17th best team in Ireland! Wait to ye see the amount of lads fleeing to america every summer if they have no provincial or 'A' championship to play for.

also, I reckon a 2-tier championship would further increase the gap between the better teams and the poorer sides. Are we just going to increase the number of championships every time a side gets walloped. Not everyone in going to challenge for Sam every year but every team has a reasonable chance of winning a meaningful provincial championship in the next 10 years if they can get their house in order.
The grass is always greener on the other side!

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 29/06/2015 20:51:17    1745072

28/06/2015 21:53:11
OgraAnDun
Gotmilk and Ormond (what's wrong with 'Ormo' anyway?), I think you both have decent points. The league is used as a catalyst for the Championship but (and its a fairly crucial but), it's more as a testing ground for systems and players and is not played in the same spirit of championship matches. Some Down fans wanted Kevin McKernan rested for the league final incase he picked up a black and would miss the Derry game - and that was with a cup at stake. I couldn't give a damn if Down got relegated to the bottom of Division Four as long as we were competing for an AI, and until that mentality changes (because I would argue it's the opinion of most supporters), comparisons between our leagues and the leagues of other sports aren't really all that valid. Competing against better teams in the league is a good way of preparing for the championship and nothing more. 'ormo' isn't my name. Its Ormond.
That's the crazy thing about the inter county system. If you change the league and all Ireland/provincial cups you help get better coverage for games and 'lesser counties'.
If Down were relegated to bottom of division 4 they would never compete for an AI in current set up.
A league should be format for main competition as it helps clubs get regular championship/games than the knock out system used at present does

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/06/2015 11:47:58    1745274

29/06/2015 13:08:28 gotmilk
Why can't you pull your head out of the cloud and accept that on a forum like this people will give you a nickname. Would I be right in saying you are either an only child or the youngest in your house?
Anyway I think you are being disrespectful to the league. I've been to plenty of league games where boys are putting all on the line. You suggest the league is played off as a collection of challenge games.
Name the last time a team performed disasterously in the league yet still competed well in the championship? Why cant people accept that if shortening my name its Ormond. There is 2 names in my user name. 2 full words. if you don't call me by the full name you use the first word
Im neither by te way
Im not disrespecting the league. The league is treated as totally second class in most places by the majority by supporters/players/media.
I don't say the league is like "friendlies" but the way the system is ran at the moment the overwhelming majority of league gams are a considerable distance from championship level intensity etc

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/06/2015 11:54:31    1745282

29/06/2015 15:04:36 Find_the_space
Look at Saturdays game of Relegated to Div 4 Wexford and Promoted to Div 1 Down ended up. Upsets do happen in the championship if the 2 tiered system was brought in then that wouldn't have happened.

The League and Provincial warm-up competitions (McKenna etc) are not taken seriously at all. Thats when most teams have trial and error time, College players have a crack at county players giving the managers maybe something to think about. There is bound to be a way of figuring out some sort of system to get rid of the colleges all together and create a more competitive system from Jan-May before the Championship or maybe all season round. Look at the problems in Leinster with Dublins dominance and Munster and Kerry/Cork.
A tiered approach would be considerably better than whats happening there.
A change to making league played all through the year/summer and properly organised championship would allow more time for the club players to get games in championship in summer
29/06/2015 15:20:01 Pope_Benedict
The Premier League is boring too. It's just that a Pat Spillane type will never get a job working for Sky Sports. Imagine Pat telling Jeff Stelling that he's just wasted 90mins of his life watching West Brom at Leicester on a Saturday afternoon. There wouldn't be any fizz in that. It has to be UNBELIEVABLE JEFF!! The championship structure is good. The imbalance between the top four-six sides and the rest is alarming, and if that gap closed, we'd have a more compelling competition. That's the root of the current 'problem', as I see it. the championship structure doesn't help the imbalance between the top sides and the rest. How do you propose closing the gap between top sides and the rest if not changing structure of championship?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/06/2015 11:58:47    1745287

29/06/2015 15:33:39 gotmilk
Exactly pope. What good is it to change the structure of the competition? It's not going to make Carlow worldbeaters nor is it going to make Dublin play poor. It's up to indvidual teams to sort it out. Certain people need to realise that teams go in cycles. Never has one side dominated a competition from it's inception.
Yes Kerry and Dublin have been Irelands most succesful teams but both have went through poor periods. Kerry in the late 80s till the mid 90s. Again up until last year they hadn't won an AI for 5 years I think. Think of other sports. Celtics and Lakers have been poor in the NBA the last 5 years, United didn't even make Europe last season, the two Milan clubs are struggling at the minute.
Yes there is a gap between the elite and the rest but give it time, I think teams will eventually catch up with them through progressing themselves and the natural decline of the elite teams. The system in place will never aid Carlow become world beaters but simply putting it on individual counties to improve is a cop out.
Tipperary have improved a huge way the past decade but the current system has not aided them
Kerry in late 80s/90s still winning Munster very regularly.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/06/2015 12:02:25    1745293

To me what's needed is a complete restructure. It's fine to have a 'B' type Championship but only after every county has had an opportunity to play for Sam.

The starting point has to be 4 groups of 8 - the current lobsided nature is historical and ridiculous. However the 4 eights are achieved I don't mind but, to me, that has to be the starting point.

Then each group could have two groups of four which are seeded so 1 top team, one medium level and two lower level teams. Play it off on a league basis with the lowest seeded team having 3 home games, 2nd lowest having 2 home games, 2nd top one home game and top team playing all three away. Top two teams go into the Group semis, bottom two drop into a Tommy Murphy type Cup to be joined at a later stage by beaten semi-finalists. So the weakest team will always get 3 Championship games at home every year plus a minimum of one Tommy Murphy Cup game. I believe the standard would rise in these counties quite quickly.

Example North-East Division of Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin & London would have two groups of:

Dublin, Armagh, Louth, London
Monaghan, Meath, Down, Antrim

London & Antrim have all home games, Louth & Down two home games, Meath & Armagh one. If it goes to form Dublin play Meath in the semi with Monaghan playing Armagh with Louth, London, Down & Antrim dropping into the Tommy Murphy Cup which is straight knockout. If again it goes to form Armagh & Meath would also drop into the Tommy Murphy Cup at the second round. I think you could see some upsets.

Tommy Murphy Cup final would need to be played in Croker in a double header to give weaker counties their day out.

The main thing is that it's a level playing field so that the weaker counties don't just end up with two hammerings every year and players can't be bothered. It may look like more games but the first round games could be run off weekly and there would be no problems with draws as it will be league position that determines progression.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 30/06/2015 12:12:41    1745309

Ormo what about Leitrim in '94 or Fermanagh in'04 and '08? Your own county in 92. The current structure gives the underdog the chance to have their day. It's a cup competition. The beauty of the FA cup is the giant killing. If you bring in a second tier competition you lose the underdog story. Again teams go in cycles. You have to look at the barren spell Dublin. They went 17 years without an All Ireland.
A lot of teams approach the league with the same intensity as the championship. I was at 5 Fermanagh league games and they played with everything on the line. Armagh in the Athletic grounds was a great hard hitting game of football with boys putting everything on the line. Look at Down. They got promoted and knocked out of the first round of the championship. Jim McRory considers it to be a succesful season. Teams now take the league just as serious as the championship.

Also what is your issue with the name?

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 30/06/2015 12:24:34    1745328

Now that the County Boards have submitted their proposals - what is likely to emerge.
Odds should favor the Jim McG/ or Sean Kelly ideas.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 03/07/2015 16:11:45    1747121

30/06/2015 12:12:41 opa01
To me what's needed is a complete restructure. It's fine to have a 'B' type Championship but only after every county has had an opportunity to play for Sam. The starting point has to be 4 groups of 8 - the current lobsided nature is historical and ridiculous. However the 4 eights are achieved I don't mind but, to me, that has to be the starting point.
Then each group could have two groups of four which are seeded so 1 top team, one medium level and two lower level teams. Play it off on a league basis with the lowest seeded team having 3 home games, 2nd lowest having 2 home games, 2nd top one home game and top team playing all three away. Top two teams go into the Group semis, bottom two drop into a Tommy Murphy type Cup to be joined at a later stage by beaten semi-finalists. So the weakest team will always get 3 Championship games at home every year plus a minimum of one Tommy Murphy Cup game. I believe the standard would rise in these counties quite quickly.
Example North-East Division of Antrim, Down, Armagh, Monaghan, Louth, Meath, Dublin & London would have two groups of:
Dublin, Armagh, Louth, London Monaghan, Meath, Down, Antrim
London & Antrim have all home games, Louth & Down two home games, Meath & Armagh one. If it goes to form Dublin play Meath in the semi with Monaghan playing Armagh with Louth, London, Down & Antrim dropping into the Tommy Murphy Cup which is straight knockout. If again it goes to form Armagh & Meath would also drop into the Tommy Murphy Cup at the second round. I think you could see some upsets. Tommy Murphy Cup final would need to be played in Croker in a double header to give weaker counties their day out. The main thing is that it's a level playing field so that the weaker counties don't just end up with two hammerings every year and players can't be bothered. It may look like more games but the first round games could be run off weekly and there would be no problems with draws as it will be league position that determines progression.I don't see how removing the provincial championships for 4 groups of 8 would be anything other than making things more streamlined?
Why would any side want to win a random group with no history etc...
Make 8 groups of 4 and the group winner qualifies for all Ireland last 16 with provincial cups also played as straight knock out and provincial finalists also qualify for the last 16. Where teams qualify from both their province and group the next team from the group of 4 not qualified for the last 16 goes into it. Remainder of counties enter tommy murphy cup
30/06/2015 12:24:34 gotmilk
Ormo what about Leitrim in '94 or Fermanagh in'04 and '08? Your own county in 92. The current structure gives the underdog the chance to have their day. It's a cup competition. The beauty of the FA cup is the giant killing. If you bring in a second tier competition you lose the underdog story. Again teams go in cycles. You have to look at the barren spell Dublin. They went 17 years without an All Ireland.
A lot of teams approach the league with the same intensity as the championship. I was at 5 Fermanagh league games and they played with everything on the line. Armagh in the Athletic grounds was a great hard hitting game of football with boys putting everything on the line. Look at Down. They got promoted and knocked out of the first round of the championship. Jim McRory considers it to be a succesful season. Teams now take the league just as serious as the championship.
Also what is your issue with the name? My name is Ormond. Not anything else. You and all others use 'ormo' deliberately to troll me. I would shut up and it wouldn't be an issue if people simply called me Ormond.
And im Tipperary not clare regardless of what it says under my name... the current situation has not seen a smaller county win much. How often have underdogs won anything? How many total outsiders have won FA cup in recent times?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/07/2015 21:00:55    1747230

I agree with the Kelly/McGuinness idea and can't be bothered dicussing any of the other options of many. It's a strong suggestion and maintains many of the current structures that have worked so well. Applied correctly, provincial winners will be the top seeds being drawn at home against the 4 lowest placed league teams. The remaining 8 counties should be drawn against each other in an open draw. Kerry and Cork for example already qualified for the Top 16 through the league will still be eager to land the provinvial title so as to get a favourable Round of 16 draw.

The hurling championship might want to throw a glance at a similar idea for a Top 8:
• 2 Provincial winners.
• Top 5 from the league. (6th and 7th teams gain a place respectively when a Top 5 team wins their provincial title.)
• Winner of second tier of 8 competition from the previous year.
○ The second tier of 8 should consist of the remaining 6 counties and the Christy Ring finalists.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7882 - 04/07/2015 14:54:49    1747358

My 'Double 16' idea in football has a similar ending to your'Top 8' huroing plan - with 2 prov champs (after playoff) joining 5 qualifiers and TMC champ in AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 04/07/2015 15:10:52    1747363

There is simply not enough teams in Ireland to have a level playing field. If there is only two championships there will be still teams in the 'B' who will be beaten well. There were already a few easy wins in the first round of the qualifiers. This just goes to show that some teams are genuinely too weak to compete at any level. And while a 'B' might suit teams who are just on the fringe of the 'A' they are going to want a chance to play in the 'A' and will probably get beaten well and the debate will start again. Re-structuring the provincial I think is a good idea with Ulster being the only real competitive one. My main point is this though: Even with a re-structured championship the real weaker teams are never going to be able to really compete consistently and we just have to accept that.

dawson56 (Carlow) - Posts: 1 - 04/07/2015 16:12:27    1747386

Jim McGuiness's idea was excellent and it would have a better chance of being passed than almost any other idea and to be honest I don't see any real negatives to McGuinness's idea.

It makes the league more important.
Provincial championships are retained and will have massive value still.
Counties get a second chance in the secondary competition which has real value.

McGuinness's idea is a win win and i'd like to see it introduced and it would keep almost everybody happy.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 04/07/2015 16:24:53    1747391