for football that is,All the have to do is mimic the old Heineken Cup format you could have 6 groups of 5 say and the top 6 in each group plus the best 2 runners up ..

thats 30 teams entered in to the format every year and then of course the team that wins the all ireland has to play the first game in the preliminary game every year . then each team would have numerous amounts of games a season .

also you could have an idea that if a team from a lower divisioned team in the national league say defeat a team in the upper league then that team in the upper league should not be allowed in the back door at all.

they have done this back door nonsnese without much thought in my opinion.

6 groups of 4 or 5 would works best . and teams have to qualify every year based on their performances in the league say . but the team that wins the all ireland get to play the first straight knock out game of the championship.. like in the snooker world championship or the tennis the champion plays the first game or something. in america they have the draft don;t they and the team that finishes worst gets the first pick to balance it out.. yes yes i know we don't have professional. but that is a fair system so the same teams don;t win all the time

I'm from munster and the same 2 teams get through every year and is unbalanced , and the provinces are uneven with different numbers in each one.



the hurlinghampionship is a mess also .


i was an underdog on tg4 in 2003..

Timothy (Cork) - Posts: 2 - 09/07/2015 08:57:04    1750259

The Back Door System - Success or Failure?

I view "The Back Door System" as being a success, In that it has expanded the All Ireland Series and definitely gave us a few extra high profile games each year.

There are a few things I dislike about the Qualifier structure, I think we all know it is far from perfect. However It's a start, and it will continue to evolve over the coming years and get better.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 12/07/2015 13:01:28    1751734

After yesterdays easy win by Tyrone, today's facile victory by Kerry, Dublin's easy win it shows the complete divide between Div 1 teams and the rest, the backdoor system is a failure. Counties won't agree with a 2 or 3 tier championship, the champions league format? Can't see that happening, there would be no club matches played, maybe an idea could be either group system in each province with the top 2 playing in the provincial finals therefore scrapping the AllIreland quarterfinals or reverting to the old system of knockout, you lose you are out

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 02/08/2015 21:28:01    1762798

Back door in not there to address the quality gao beteen the Best and rthe rest.

Overall, the Back Door has been a success and meets various objectives - 1) guarantees all a 2nd match; 2) facilitates novel runs by counties outside theif prov; and 3) most of all, facilitates the best counties to emerge in thd AI QFs, even if this the best a 2nd chance - no structure should face criticism for facilitating the besg emerging as AI champ.

Problem is the prov struc imbalance - which I address i n my 'Double 16' idea - all 32 retain 2 chances AFTER the Prov QFs -
1) Prov SF 16 - plays 3 KO rds to get 2 in AI QFs via front door.
2) Qual Rd 1 (TMC) - plays 4 KO rds to get TMC champ = 1 in AI QFs via side door - the weakest 8 of 16 contest one half of the draw for TM Shield and TM final berth against the stronger A half.
3) Quals Rds 2, 3, 4 - Combined losers from Prov SF 16 and TMC A half of 12, 6, 3 as well as TMS QF losers of 4 enter respective rds 2, 3, 4.
5 Rd 4 winners earn 5 AI QF berths via back door.
What do yez think ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 03/08/2015 13:08:38    1763043

To Tommy 58 -

I don't agree with a Prov SF having 4x the chance of a 1st Rd Qualifier, based on your coin toss argument.
The Qualifier needs to win 7 matches straight - 1 chance in 128 (2 with a power exponent of 7).
However, the Prov SFlist still has two chances - 1 in 32 (2 to the power of 5) via front door AND 1 in 64 via straight back door following SF loss AND 1 in 16 following Prov Final loss.
So 7 chances in 64 = 14 times the chance of the 1st rd Qualifier.
I don't expect much support on this site.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 03/08/2015 21:53:34    1763461

I agree with teams getting more than one game. Once you've played at least 3 games or if you have lost twice, I don't think there can be any complaints. I don't disagree with provincial championships being run separately to the All-Ireland series. If support is there for it, I don't disagree with a two tiered approach to the championship. Jimmy McGuinness and Sean Kelly have the right idea though, keeping a route open through winning a provincial championship while making the league more worth while.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7882 - 04/08/2015 09:25:58    1763495

Omahant,

Thanks for addressing my posts of 21 May 18:14 as corrected at 21:25 hrs. My position remains as follows.

Provincial quarter finalists (including prelim rd. winners) have 4 times as good a chance of AI as teams in 1st round qualifiers.

Provincial semi finalists have 7 times as good a chance of AI as teams in 1st round qualifiers.

I will expand in later post.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 04/08/2015 09:34:41    1763502

Omahant,

Here are my thoughts as promised.

16 teams in 1st round qualifiers all have 1/128 chance. Total chance that any of these will win = 16 x 1/128 = 16/128.
Therefore, chance that one of remaining 16 teams (i.e. prov SF) will win = 1-16/128 = 112/128. Divide this by 16 and you see that each prov SF has 7/128 chance.
16 x 1/128 + 16 x 7 x 128 =1.

Or, looking at it another way, prov SF has 3 routes to AI with the following probabilities.

Route 1. Win 5 straight matches. Prob = 1/2 to power of 5 =1/32. Agreed
Route 2. Lose SF (Prob = 1/2) and win 6 matches (Prob = 1/64). Combined prob = 1/2 x 1/64 = 1/128.
Route 3. Win SF (Prob = 1/2), lose prov final (Prob = 1/2) and win 4 matches (Prob = 1/16). Combined prob = 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/16 = 1/64.

Total probability of prov SF winning AI = 1/32 + 1/128 + 1/64 = (4 + 1 + 2)/128 = 7/128.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 04/08/2015 10:00:06    1763523

Good stuff, Tommy 58

I see I didn't apply the 1/2 and 1/4 weightings to the last twp legs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 04/08/2015 21:55:37    1764068

Tommy 58 -
How do we get 4/128 or 1/32 from both streams - for equity ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 04/08/2015 21:59:52    1764073

Tommy 58 -
I put your 'coin toss' approach to the test against my 'Double 16' format - where the 1st Rd Qualifiers/TMC retain 2 chances (for 2 rds only) like those in the Prov SFs (but fof 3 rds incl champs playoff rd)..
Well - the result is that the 1st rd Qualifiers treble their chance to 48/128 or 3/8.
Therefore, the Prov SF 16 have a 5/8 chance - with the SF/Qual multiple down to 1.6x from the actual 7x.
This seems fair as each pairing is not 50/50 - the front door is tougher and should reflect more than a 4/8 chance.

My 1st Rd Qual chznce calculation, if I'm right -
If 1st rd Qual wins 7 straight to AI title = 1/128
if losing either 1st rd Qual OR TMC QF after 1st rd win (need record of 6 wins, 1 loss) = 2 x 1/128 = 2/128
For all 16 1st rd Qualifiers = 16 x 3/128 = 48/ 128.

When splitting the 1st rd Quals into stronger 8 and weaker (TM Shield) halves of the TMC stream
Givjng strong 8 the 3 chances for 3 rds = 8 x 4/128 = 32/128
Weaker 8 (TMS) the 3 chances for 1 rd (to Qual rd 2 only) = 8 x 2/128 = 16/128.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 05/08/2015 13:25:19    1764339

Tommy 58 -
I put your 'coin toss' approach to the test against my 'Double 16' format - where the 1st Rd Qualifiers/TMC retain 2 chances (for 2 rds only) like those in the Prov SFs (but fof 3 rds incl champs playoff rd)..
Well - the result is that the 1st rd Qualifiers treble their chance to 48/128 or 3/8.
Therefore, the Prov SF 16 have a 5/8 chance - with the SF/Qual multiple down to 1.6x from the actual 7x.
This seems fair as each pairing is not 50/50 - the front door is tougher and should reflect more than a 4/8 chance.

My 1st Rd Qual chznce calculation, if I'm right -
If 1st rd Qual wins 7 straight to AI title = 1/128
if losing either 1st rd Qual OR TMC QF after 1st rd win (need record of 6 wins, 1 loss) = 2 x 1/128 = 2/128
For all 16 1st rd Qualifiers = 16 x 3/128 = 48/ 128.

When splitting the 1st rd Quals into stronger 8 and weaker (TM Shield) halves of the TMC stream
Givjng strong 8 the 3 chances for 3 rds = 8 x 4/128 = 32/128
Weaker 8 (TMS) the 3 chances for 1 rd (to Qual rd 2 only) = 8 x 2/128 = 16/128.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 05/08/2015 13:26:19    1764340

Running the provincial championships as a pre season competition or early in the League won't work, lads won't care whether they play or not. There was a debate on newstalk last night about counties raising money by going to businesses and asking them for sponsorship, that idea may work in Dublin or Cork etc but won't work in every county, for example if there is 1000 businesses in 1 county but 100,000 in another county who will get the most money in sponsorship, you have to cap the amount of money senior county panels have at their disposal, any extra monies should be used at underage. The GAA won't operate at a 33 county open draw, they won't do a league system, they won't remove provincial championships, they won't change so the only choice they have but won't do is to cap spending or reduce the teams to a 7 a side and money won't matter

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 05/08/2015 14:05:38    1764377

Answering the question posed in the title of whether the backdoor has been a success or failure? Clearly it has been a success, as now people want more, and so further development is now required and should be looked at carefully, with the goal of Implementing in 2 or 3 years time.

I'm against an overall two tier Championship system, and I am also against abolishing the Provincial Championships. Certainly I would favour a restructuring of the Leinster Championship, and making that specific Championship into 3 tier 3 stage system. But All teams must have a shot at the Provincial title, and all Counties must also have a shot at the All Ireland Championship every year.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 05/08/2015 16:05:00    1764518

Tyrone's win over Monaghan shows the success of the qualifiers. Tyrone were not too far away all year. They had 3 draws in relegation. They lost to a Division 1 opponent in an Ulster preliminary round match. The qualifiers afforded them the opportunity to dust themselves down and go again instead of having to wait an entire year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7882 - 08/08/2015 20:01:00    1766154

In the first 10 years of the qualifiers (up to and including 2010), the All Ireland Semi-Finalists were split almost 50:50 between provincial champions and qualifier teams (19 to 21). In the last 5 years it has swung hugely towards to provincial champions - 18 to 2. Illustrates the dominance of Dublin, Mayo and Kerry and how they are pulling away from the rest of the country.

jimski (Kildare) - Posts: 381 - 08/08/2015 20:25:34    1766173

So the overall conclusion is - Qualifiers have been a 'qualifying' success - but nothing should stop twaaks for improvement ? My pitch - give early losers a 3rd chance - and subject Prov champs to a Playoff Rd.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 08/08/2015 21:32:26    1766236

So the overall conclusion is - Qualifiers have been a 'qualifying' success - but nothing should stop twaaks for improvement ? My pitch - give early losers a 3rd chance - and subject Prov champs to a Playoff Rd.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2622 - 08/08/2015 21:36:45    1766242

Tyrone are an excellent example for the rest of Ulster. The rest need to stop their complaining regards their competitive championship. If Ulster want to stop the farce of Division 1 counties starting off in the preliminary round, they could adopt the Leinster type seeding. The qualifiers are there to offer counties an alternative route to the All-Ireland series. The competitiveness of Ulster is not to blame for Down losing to Wexford, Armagh losing to Galway and Derry losing to Galway.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7882 - 09/08/2015 10:50:21    1766352

Back-door would be a lot better if they got the schedules right. e.g losing provincial finslists should have more time to prepare for the 4th round qualifier. Cork had only 6 days to prepare for Kildare then Kildare only had 6 or 7 days to prepare for Kerry. Donegal only had a week to prepare for Mayo. Might suggest that the Ulster championship be played off earlier.

crikey (Australia) - Posts: 355 - 09/08/2015 12:34:53    1766467