Championship formats are a never ending discussion.

Just solely on provincial championships, would they really be devalued if they were separate to the All-Ireland? A number of counties have divisional championships as well as their county championship.

If the provincials were a separate competition between league and All-Ireland, teams would still want to be going well. It would be providing competitive games. It could take a year or two for the provincials to establish themselves on their own. The All-Ireland would be open game then for any format.

It could always be trialled for a few years. If it doesn't work out, the provincials could be reintegrated back into the All-Ireland championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7913 - 15/05/2015 11:54:21    1723919

Agree.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/05/2015 12:10:52    1723926

I'd be in favour of the provincial championship replacing the National Leagues.

Play the provincial championships as a round robin at the start of the year and have the top team in each provincial championship qualify for the National League Semi final. So you still have a provinincial champion and a 'League' final.

An open draw championship really is the only way to go.

slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 15/05/2015 12:11:55    1723928

Maybe from February to april play the provincial championships. each team plays each other twice (home and way).
Then from may to september play the all ireland in a champions league format.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/05/2015 12:20:21    1723930

I agree with Slayer. An open draw with every county playing the same amount of matches en route to an all-ireland final. I doubt many people from Connacht will be in favour though!

XPAC (Westmeath) - Posts: 86 - 15/05/2015 12:30:29    1723938

League and provincials get scrapped

Open draw of 32 teams - so bye bye London and New York (just not financially viable to include them)
4 groups of 8
each group would have 4 top seeds
each group would have at least 1 Munster, 1 Connauhgt, 2 leinster and 2 Ulster

That makes 6 teams. so remaining teams would all go into 1 pot and get chosen randomly.
7 group games and top 2 teams from each group would qualify for 1/4 finals

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 15/05/2015 12:41:03    1723944

I heard someone say this week Galway v Leitrim is not an attractive fixture but would Galway v Carlow in football be any different? Because you go to groups and seeded teams and you will always have the smaller teams cannon fodder for the bigger teams. You take away that and I see players of smaller teams playing in the provincial championship early in the year and then heading off traveling abroad for the summer...why wait around for the eventual elimination form the Sam Maguire group stage?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11248 - 15/05/2015 12:44:14    1723945

Maybe from February to april play the provincial championships. each team plays each other twice (home and way).
Then from may to september play the all ireland in a champions league format.
Agree 100% - Keep the provincial championships then have the All-Ireland championship separate. I have no idea how a 32 county format would work for hurling... Imagine the attendance if Kilkenny were drawn against Leitrim.

mayo_hurler (Mayo) - Posts: 113 - 15/05/2015 12:57:26    1723950

I agree provincials as their own competition.

Yew Tree, in a new setup there should be something for all teams to compete for so for example Div 1 could be 2 groups of eight. Div 2 could be 8 teams. Div 3 could be 8 teams.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 15/05/2015 12:57:43    1723951

No doubt yew tree that a champions league style format would throw up a fair few dead rubbers (almost any system would really) but it would still be a more balanced system, it would guarantee each county at least three championship matches, Id imagine that the more streamlined system would make it easier for clubs and counties to come up with a better schedule for club games.
as for the thing about players not sticking around to face elimination from the Sam maguire, sure theres loads of players at the moment preparing for this years championship who know they havent a chance of winning Sam, so I cant see that problem becoming any worse under a champs league format.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/05/2015 12:57:56    1723952

woops
County: Kerry

League and provincials get scrapped

Open draw of 32 teams - so bye bye London and New York (just not financially viable to include them)
4 groups of 8

Why would you get rid of New York and replace them with Kilkenny? Club Football in New York is as strong as many counties here in Ireland,They just slowly need to get there act in order at inter county level.

As for booting out London,Thats possibly the worst theory yet,They have won more championship games in the last few years than alot of counties.

Champ Lge is stupid idea,It would be full of dead rubbers...32 straight knock out is the way forward with the provincials as the back door

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 15/05/2015 13:13:56    1723961

Ok skip Kilkenny...31 teams so.
Well from my proposal it wouldnt be financially possible for London or new York to take part!
But if London could then they would make 32 teams.

Dead rubber games...arent some of the provincial games at present dead rubber games....that is including provincial finals

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 15/05/2015 13:21:27    1723967

It wouldnt be FULL of dead rubbers shea.
No game after the group stage would be a dead rubber.
And most of the group stage games would have something on the line.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 15/05/2015 13:27:26    1723973

Also Shea
What clubs in New York would be better than an Intercounty team.
The NY trip is merely an annual nuisance for Connaught teams.

The provincials are bad enough as they are at the moment without having them as a back door.
Also how would that work if only team from Munster gets knocked out in the first or second round of the straight 32 knockout

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 15/05/2015 13:29:45    1723974

joncarter

No doubt yew tree that a champions league style format would throw up a fair few dead rubbers (almost any system would really) but it would still be a more balanced system, it would guarantee each county at least three championship matches,

Ye I'd be in favour of the World Cup format over the champions league format myself, when you have 3 group games instead of 6 then most of the last round matches will count for something, in the CL where there are 6 group games quite often the final round is full of dead rubbers. As for the provincials I would like to see them retained but I do think they need to be removed from the championship itself, also to retain some of their importance you could still use them to help seed the championship.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 15/05/2015 14:11:09    1723997

joncarter - I see what you saying but in reality the likes of Leitrim and Sligo say from our own part of the world. They can aim to win a Connacht title. Both counties have done it and it was like an All Ireland to them. Same goers for the likes of Westmeath and I reckon we could see Tipp win a Munster title hopefully in the not too distant future. Pushing those competitions to a "pre season" slot might de-value them somewhat?

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11248 - 15/05/2015 14:13:06    1723999

was thinking about this during the week .. would people travel if it was an open draw..
the handy thing about the provincials is its relatively local.. and dublin has the road and rail network to cope with the q finals forward..
i mean the championship doesnt really start till the q final stage anyway..
the concept its self is good but would it kill the numbers and thus the athmosphere at the championship games ??
i mean (just using an example and doesn not reflect on the team ) but how many from cork would travel to a second round match at longford ?? or visa versa how many would travel down..

as i said the concept is great but your not really going to see numbers till august anyway ..
but in its current format the provencials still draw numbers probably not in munster but definitely in ulster and leinster ..

it is lopsided for ulster and leinster who have to play a couple of extra games but on the flip side of that they would be fitter and more up to speed with championship tempo

its a hard one to call

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 16/05/2015 13:03:25    1724193

I'd turn the existing championship format around and instead of teams that are beaten in their provincial championship then entering the qualifiers, I'd have all teams enter the qualifiers, to be played before the provincial championships start at all. The aim of this being to reduce the 32 who start down to a final 4 who thereby qualifying for the all Ireland quarter finals. Run this off, using a straight open draw knock format with no seeding, during the months of May and June.

Then in July start the provincial championships which, for all but four teams, would restore the knock out element which made the provincial championships so exciting pre 2001. The four provincial champions would also qualify for the all Ireland quarter finals where there are already four teams qualified from the earlier qualifiers. The incentive for one of these four qualifiers to then go on and win their provincial championship is that by doing so they'd avoid the quarter final altogether and go straight into an all Ireland semi final.

In theory it would be possible that some years there could be no quarter finals at all but I think this would be rare as it would be very unlikely that the four qualifiers would come from four separate provinces and even more unlikely that all four would then win their provincial championship as well. Similarly it would also be unlikely that you'd get four quarter finals every year, as you'd imagine at least one qualifier would also manage to earn the inventive of winning their provincial championship.

I think this could work well as it keeps the provincial championship which many of us want to hold, and in fact it restores the importance of it. The open draw qualifier format gives even a minnow a chance of a run to the quarter final with a very favourable draw. An alternative on the open draw qualifier format could be to reserve one of the four qualifier places for teams in divisions 3 and 4 (a revised Tommy Murphy Cup perhaps) but I'd prefer the completely open draw myself as it is very unlikely the top teams on paper could all avoid each other on the way thereby creating some cracker qualifier games with the losers then dependant on winning their provincial championship to get to the all Ireland quarter finals.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 16/05/2015 15:19:39    1724210

Hey ! I'm the obsessive one on thix topic. It seems this thread creator is becoming more prolific and challenging my leadership position :)

Seriously, I would rather see the Prov championships retained, and with a weaker link to the AI, rather than no link at all. I think as a stand alone, they would lose significance.
To bring the link to the weakest point and maximize 'open draw' pairings in thd AI, why not try this this 'Super 8' idea -
1) 8 Prov Finalists, with 24-team Qual Rd 1.
2) 'The 8' play 3 rds - only unbeaten team to AI SFs.
3) Losing teams in quantities of 4, 2 & 1 - go to Qual Rds 2, 3 & AI QFs, with quantities of 16, 10 & 6.
4) 3 QF winners complete the AI field.
5) 8 Rd 2 losers compete for Tommy Murphy Cup.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2643 - 16/05/2015 16:42:36    1724232

Hey ! I'm the obsessive one on thix topic. It seems this thread creator is becoming more prolific and challenging my leadership position :)

Seriously, I would rather see the Prov championships retained, and with a weaker link to the AI, rather than no link at all. I think as a stand alone, they would lose significance.
To bring the link to the weakest point and maximize 'open draw' pairings in thd AI, why not try this this 'Super 8' idea -
1) 8 Prov Finalists, with 24-team Qual Rd 1.
2) 'The 8' play 3 rds - only unbeaten team to AI SFs.
3) Losing teams in quantities of 4, 2 & 1 - go to Qual Rds 2, 3 & AI QFs, with quantities of 16, 10 & 6.
4) 3 QF winners complete the AI field.
5) 8 Rd 2 losers compete for Tommy Murphy Cup.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2643 - 16/05/2015 16:55:23    1724236