DUBJOHN
County: Dublin
Posts: 249

1711717
As I stated on another thread last week 'Kerry won a handy all Ireland last year! The referee in the replay in limerick certainly gave them anything he could and some! and then Donegal didn't turn up on Ai final day! Ah yeah a very handy ai for the Kingdom!

Bit like the 2011 final for another county

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 07/04/2015 17:48:16    1711748

Leinster is not the easiest overall , it's not about one or two teams - rather it's the sum of all it's parts . The top five or six in Leinster are still better than Munster . Kildare , Meath and Laois are better than Tipp , Clare and Waterford ! Also traditionally speaking , these sides will come again whereas Munster has always been between two teams ( bar 92- what a year :) )

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 07/04/2015 17:50:45    1711750

Where are the motions to congress?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7868 - 07/04/2015 18:08:26    1711757

I would put Tipp ahead of Laois and Kildare and it depends on how you look at it. Meath will probably get to a Leinster final this year but if they were in Ulster or Munster (with the seeded system we now have) they wouldn't have a hope of reaching a provincial final and they would only get to a Connacht final if they could avoid Mayo and Roscommon en route.

Another way of looking it, Leinster have only 1 team in the top ten at the moment. Munster have 2, Connacht have 2, and Ulster have 5 (Donegal, Monaghan, Down, Tyrone & Armagh). It will change over the Summer obviously but right now I wouldn't count any Leinster team outside Dublin as a top 10 team.

county man (Limerick) - Posts: 1102 - 07/04/2015 18:24:18    1711764

To the Right Stuff and Tyroneed -

In my plan, with only beaten teams in 12 Prov QFs and 4 Prelim Rds getting the 3rd chance (the same as saying all 32 retains two chances after the Prov QFs), this goes a long way in neutralizing Prov QF results to put these 24 teams on an equal footing with the 4 SF bye teams in Muns/Conn.

Also, my plan gives 28 counties a minimum of 3 matches without 'dead rubbers' that accompany round robin play.
The 4 remaining counties (4 Muns/Conn byes) could go head-to-head in two-legged SFs to ensure that they (incl SF losers in Qual Rd 2), get 3 matches as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2611 - 07/04/2015 18:28:30    1711766

Countyman,most counties in Leinster have proud football traditions and have tasted success in the not so distant past.Up to 10 years ago the provincial title was shared out amongst Laois,Westmeath,Kildare,Offaly,Meath and Dublin.Louth were robbed in a final also.Wexford were very close to winning also.Dublin have dominated the last 10 years but thats only a recent trait.
Im afraid outside of Kerry,and Cork to a lesser extent,Munster is boringly predictable.And has been for 130 years.Tipp havnt won a province since 1935 and Waterford,Clare and Limerick have 4 titles combined.Leinster has a far healthier spread of winners over the decades.Dublin,if history is anything to go by,will not dominate for ever.Kerry and Cork most certainly will.I know which province i find more entertaining anyway.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 07/04/2015 20:42:00    1711815

TheRightStuff
County: Donegal
Posts: 586

1711750
Leinster is not the easiest overall , it's not about one or two teams - rather it's the sum of all it's parts . The top five or six in Leinster are still better than Munster . Kildare , Meath and Laois are better than Tipp , Clare and Waterford ! Also traditionally speaking , these sides will come again whereas Munster has always been between two teams ( bar 92- what a year :) )

Well in the last 3 years or so tipp have beaten laois, Wexford, offaly and Longford in the championship.

tipp11 (Tipperary) - Posts: 353 - 07/04/2015 21:24:38    1711836

Kerry have always had the footballing talent but never the tough, arduous, physical nature of an annual Ulster Championship where injuries and constant heavy knocks eventually take their toll. Throughout their history Kerry have always turned up to semi finals, and now quarter finals, relatively injury free and with all their players intact and fit. Breezing past Tipperary, Clare and Limerick has been no test so yes they have always had an advantage.....BUT HEY this is the Kingdom and dare anyone say a negative word about them...or de Dubs....it's the law you know!

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 07/04/2015 21:30:42    1711838

Cuedrocket, what is a proud football tradition? Limerick won the very first football All-Ireland and have some very strong football areas. Sames goes for Clare, Tipp & Waterford. Just because we are seen as "hurling counties" and not very succesfull historically at football doesn't mean we have any less a proud football tradition than Leinster counties.

Also put any Leinster county (besides Dublin) in Munster and see how many Munster titles they would have won over the years?
Dublin have 60 odd Leinster titles, Meath have about 20 and the next county about 10. That is as lop-sided as Munster & probaly worse when you factor in that most counties in Leinster don't play hurling to a high level and can concentrate all their efforts on football.

Leinster was competitive in the 2000's but so too was Munster, Limerick took Kerry to a reply in 2004 Munster final and Tipp took Cork to a replay in 2008 final. The wins for Laois & Westmeath were great but they were one-offs and they don't look likely repeating that any time soon. Kildare & Meath are the only counties who look capable long term of mounting a challenge to Dublin but they are a long way behind at the moment and I can't see them challenging Dublin for a number of years.

Everyone knows Dublin will walk Leinster this year, but at least in Munster there will be a competitive final.

county man (Limerick) - Posts: 1102 - 08/04/2015 13:45:37    1712063

We have to face facts that certain teams shouldnt be competing for Sam. Have a three tier 11 team championship, with senior, intermediate and junior. It would give counties like my own something to aim for.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1655 - 08/04/2015 14:23:53    1712088

It's not Kerry's fault, the whole championship structure needs an overhaul, if you had a world cup style format, with the top 2 teams going into the last 16 for Sam and the bottom 2 going into into a Tommy Murphy cup (or something like that) then everybody would have something to play for and most importantly it would be fair.

The provincials could also be retained and used to help seed the championship, that way the tradition would be kept alive and their importance wouldn't be significantly reduced.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 08/04/2015 15:01:50    1712113

The championship is lopsided and always has been. The likes of Dublin, Cork, Kerry and Mayo (maybe Galway) have no real interest in winning provincial titles. The only counties that want to keep them are the ones that don't win very often.

They should be kept to give all counties a go at them (they are a big deal when the likes of Clare, Leitrim, Westmeath and Sligo win one).

Play them out in an open draw (over six weeks) and the finalists in all provinces get to the round robin all ireland series. - 8 teams
Let the losing semi finalists play off to produce 4 more - 12 team all Ireland round robin (3 groups of four) - produces 3 All ireland semi finalists

Let the losing provincial quarterfinalists (12 teams) and semi final playoff losers (4 teams) - play a knock out championship to produce 1 quarter finalist

Let the preliminary round losers (8 teams) play a knock out championship and produce one All ireland quarterfinalist.

This gives every team a fair shot at an All Ireland semi but doesn't have any meaningless matches if the seeding for the following year is based on the previous years results.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1122 - 08/04/2015 15:39:53    1712130

Leinster titles
Dub 53
Meath 21
Kildare 13
Offaly 10
Wexford 10
Louth 8
Laois 6
Westmeath 1 - 2004
Longford 1

As i said earlier Leinster is quite competetive over the decades witj a fine spread of winning counties.
Carlow 1

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 08/04/2015 15:58:57    1712147

I'm always surprised to find that people are so afraid to change these structures. If they did away with the provincials for just one year would it be the end of gaelic football? Those who want to keep them usually make the point about the 'what if' or 'what it means to'. For example, what if Louth had won it in 2010 and how much it would have meant to them. But if you look over the past 20 years or so, outsiders winning a provincial title happens rarely enough - off the top of my head I can think of Clare 92, Offaly 97, Laois 03, Westmeath 04, Sligo 07. I don't want to sound like I'm belittling these teams' achievement in doing so but should the championship be essentially dictated by the 'what if's' and 'what it means to for'?
Teams can get around Ireland a lot easier then they could back in the time when these provincial lines were set up. For Kerry to play Antrim or Donegal to go down to Cork are not as arduous as it once was. What are we holding onto these provincial championships for? As a testament to the original championship structures? For ease of travel for supporters and teams?
The hard truth is, a number teams are now very far away from the rest of the chasing pack in terms of resources, training etc. For argument sake, lets say the league structure replaced the championship and we increased the number of games to 2 against each county, i.e. home and away. Wouldn't this give us a much more honest view of who the best team in the country is as opposed to the knockout format it is from quarter finals on? We would get more top quality games and games that matter too.
Yes it takes away the outside chance of a team going and winning it but for me that's a romantic notion that went out the door a long time ago. Lets have more of the quality of the semi's last year as opposed to the level we saw in the provincial finals.

NavyNBlue (Dublin) - Posts: 1357 - 08/04/2015 16:16:16    1712157

NavyNBlue

You make some very fair points but unfortunately lots of people are often afraid of change and won't even hear of it, it's a funny mindset but it exists the world over. Now I'm generally all for trying new things, but admittedly I do love the provincials so I think they could be retained, especially to soften the blow of changing the entire structure, but ultimately they need to be removed from the championship and sooner rather than later.

To be fair this would be a huge change for the Gaa and it's something they can't afford to get wrong, I'd say there's near on 100 different suggestions out there (if you include all the minor variations) but the general consensus seems to be that it needs to be changed to a group stage and KO format. Some people (like me) prefer 3 group games, more people seem to prefer 6 (3 home, 3 away) and you're suggesting (for argument sake) doubling up the league fixtures to replace the championship.

I just hope the Gaa is actually considering peoples opinions on this matter and they're going to act on it soon and sensibly.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 08/04/2015 17:08:19    1712188

Kerry to their credit have a history of producing excellent teams. In my view if they were in another province they would still be there or thereabouts in terms of leading the All Ireland wins list. However, i don't think the record would be as pronounced though. Kerry's path to the semi finals through the years would be easier than other counties that compete for top honours. If Cork had a bad year Kerry were automatically in the All Ireland semi finals and bar the west the same cannot be said of other strong counties. Its a similar story with Kilkenny in hurling. They have a record of producing superb teams but if they were in Munster would they have won as much? I seriously doubt it. I doubt it on both counts as they never got as exposed as other counties did when they were not at their best. They didn't have another top team to consistently knock them out as Munster is dominated by Hurling and Leinster by football.

seany16 (Dublin) - Posts: 1658 - 08/04/2015 18:19:56    1712209

Every year we get a whole pile of these threads and every time I ask the same question,if being from a province with only two traditionally powerful teams is such an advantage, why dont Galway and Mayo have more all irelands?
I agree with you on one thing therightstuff, Kerry did beat ye fair and square last September.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 08/04/2015 21:01:56    1712251

Kerry are a great football county but were lucky lucky lucky last year. A replay in Limerick, Munster? A man sent off in first match? No Dublin in Final? Anyway well done to them.
Lets see some good luck for another team this year.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2520 - 08/04/2015 21:14:20    1712256

a completely unfair system and no will within the gaa hierarchy to change it...a very simple change...introduce an A and B championship...when League finishes in April that will determine the top 16 teams in the country...run off provincial championships in may/june...start all-ireland series at end of june with just a straight knockout...winning your provincial championship earns you a first round seeding to avoid other provincial winners...we'll see how many all-irelands kerry win then...

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 08/04/2015 21:38:07    1712268

well they could face monaghan today
both sides are in portugal on a training camp
the vilamoura classic

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 09/04/2015 09:39:25    1712290