Liamwalkinstown
County: Dublin
Posts: 5973

1709858
wasnt an april fool. they were talking about it on Today FM over lunch time!!!
Jesus Wept........
how can a basketball coach teach a footballer anything..........

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Liam McHale, Donaghy, Michael Dara, Bernard Brogan Sr... off the top of my head all quality and basketball first men who became great footballers. I played both sports and there are lots of common aspects....

- fielding
- disciplined tackling (excellent playing against a blanket, hand passing team - think Tyrone match)
- positional sense - setting up to defend fast counter attacking offence
- pivoting to prevent the hand-in tackle
- ball handling - the hop solo is a stone wall basketball dribble. It's no coincidence that MDMA is one of the best ball handling solo'ers in the game. His movements are based on pump fake and in-and-out basketball dribbling moves. Certainly adds an extra string to his bow.

The gap between both sports is not that big at all.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 03/04/2015 14:06:07    1710171

With all the talk of action being required to stop blanket defences ruining the game, perhaps appointments like this also need to be looked at by those so passionate about preserving the attractiveness of Gaelic Football. I am not against the appointment of someone from outside the sport coming in to offer an alternative insight into how to gain a competitive edge, but if there are going to be changes made to improve football, then we need to look at a brodaer scope of changes than just trying to stop defending in numbers.
Teams like Dublin can afford to bring in all sorts of conditioning coaches, psychologists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. to work with the team to help gain an advantage over their opponents. They can gain all sorts of additional perks and cushy day jobs for their players to ensure they can effectively run like a professional sports team. I'm not saying other teams don't, but they cannot do this on the scale Dublin can. They have playing and financial resources that is probably of a similar scale of the each of the combined total of each province. I'm not against Dublin, and in a way I respect what they have done. What annoys me is that when another smaller team play Dublin and do not go 15 on 15 they are torn apart for adopting a game plan which is really in many cases the only way they can attempt to level the playing field with the Goliath they face. In the last Euro Championships, no one expected Ireland to line up against Spain man for man, because everyone knew that would be madness, yet in football, teams with much smaller resources are expected to go man for man against the big boys and take a hammering for "the good of the game"?
If we want to improve Gaelic Football then yes we need to look at the rules of the game to reward open attacking football to an extent. What we need to be careful about though is creating a game where the big boys get stronger, the smaller teams get weaker and we loose all competitiveness in the game. So now when there are so many voices calling for rule changes, I hope that the GAA also look at things like caps on back room teams, squad sizes, spending on county squads and realistically the possibility of splitting a county with the population of a province in two.

johnboy7 (Tyrone) - Posts: 79 - 03/04/2015 16:39:13    1710214

Johnboy - I agree with some of what you say but Dublin are an easy target really. You seem to be suggesting that weak teams only play this system against Dublin as they cannot compete with Dublin's footballing ability and Dublin's footballing ability is down to their numerous 'advantages' etc.

We know that this argument is totally flawed as the blanket arguably started in the early 00s with Tyrone and Armagh, a period when Dublin were in the doldrums so really the system's origin had nothing to do with Dublin. Tyrone and Armagh were arguably forces in football during this period had persisted with this type of defensive football, yet you seem to be suggesting that it's only weaker teams who use it. Even now Donegal would not be viewed as a weaker county yet they have mastered this system. Ironically they appear to have hammered Tyrone playing football last weekend. Anyway I think you know where I am going with this. I think this style is an ethos. You either believe in it or you don't. You don't just switch it on when playing Dublin as you suggest.

On the matter of splitting Dublin, which is I presume what you mean by the 'size of a province' comment and presumably another 'advantage', where do you draw the line with this? Mayo has a population 4 or 5 times that of Leitrim in Connaught. Is this an unfair advantage? Should Mayo be split? The population of Antrim is over half a million. Is this an advantage in Ulster? Is Corks an advantage in Munster? Again Dublin are the easy target it seems. The lack of Dublin titles over the years would suggestion that population is little advantage. Hard work on your underage structures appears to be the key.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 03/04/2015 17:39:34    1710225

the funny thing is for all the people living in any county
you can only put 15 on the pitch

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/04/2015 18:20:34    1710243

Joxer, you make some fair points. I accept the the heavily defensive style of play is not saved for games against Dublin, and I agree I would like to see the rules changed to encourage a more free flowing, attacking game.
Ofcourse there will always be bigger counties than others. We will never have a completely even system and I wouldn't expect it. It's just the disparity between Dublin and the rest, is the most gaping and obvious example. It isn't just about population. Dublin have huge numbers and huge financial resources, while a county you mention like Antrim may have a big population, but a relatively small pick of senior footballers and operate of a fraction of the budget of many teams. If we introduced caps in spending, playing squads, back room teams etc. they would apply to all counties and affect more counties than Dublin. The main crux of my argument is that if we change the rules of the game to force teams to abandon defensive strategies, then we are likely to see many more mismatches and non events. For example, while I accept the football in Ulster is not the prettiest, which provincial Championship would you rather watch? Dublin running up a cricket score and winning games after 20 minutes in Leinster, or an intense, low scoring but competitive game in Ulster, where a team rarely successfully defends it's title? I worry that if we go down the route of forcing teams to abandon defending in numbers and leave themselves open, we may see more and more non contests. Despite that I agree something has to be done. But it will take additional measures to changing the playing rules to ensure we have an attractive game AND a reasonably competitive one.

johnboy7 (Tyrone) - Posts: 79 - 03/04/2015 18:44:56    1710249

the funny thing is for all the people living in any county
you can only put 15 on the pitch

By that logic you could also put Connor McGregor in a ring with Joe Brolly and say it is a fair one on one contest. There's more to it than that and you know it... in fact when I think about it, that is a contest I would love to see, and I wouldn't mind if it wasn't competitive at all!

johnboy7 (Tyrone) - Posts: 79 - 03/04/2015 18:50:09    1710250

johnboy7
By that logic you could also put Connor McGregor in a ring with Joe Brolly and say it is a fair one on one contest. There's more to it than that and you know it... in fact when I think about it, that is a contest I would love to see, and I wouldn't mind if it wasn't competitive at all!

not really anything like the same logic
conor mcgregor is a trained mma fighter
joe brolly is a barrister and ex gaa player twice his age almost
I fail to see how that logic matches anything of the sort
that each county picks a panel of some 30 players at the start of each year
and can all only play 15 trained gaa players each reagrdless of how many people the cencus tells us live in each county

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/04/2015 19:06:09    1710257

because some counties have a tiny pick hill with very few clubs..population is a huge factor in ensuring a high quality panel

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/04/2015 19:21:52    1710267

but each county has 30 players in their panel at the start to end of the year generally
so they all pick 30 and work with that 30 to improve and train all year
it doesnt really matter how many people live in each county after that now does it
if anything cork has the biggest pick as they have the most gaa clubs and players
after that you could have 100 million living in a county but if they arent all playing the sport what good are they

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/04/2015 19:27:42    1710273

it has huge relevance how many people live in each county..the all ireland roll of honours says it all...very few counties on it are small counties..population has a huge bearing on a team...gaelic football is the main sport in practically every county...yes cork if you notice are regularly a top side despite hurling arguably being the more favoured sport in the county..in the main population area the city anyway

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/04/2015 20:05:37    1710293

johnboy7
County: Tyrone
Posts: 69

1710249
Joxer, you make some fair points. I accept the the heavily defensive style of play is not saved for games against Dublin, and I agree I would like to see the rules changed to encourage a more free flowing, attacking game.
Ofcourse there will always be bigger counties than others. We will never have a completely even system and I wouldn't expect it. It's just the disparity between Dublin and the rest, is the most gaping and obvious example. It isn't just about population. Dublin have huge numbers and huge financial resources, while a county you mention like Antrim may have a big population, but a relatively small pick of senior footballers and operate of a fraction of the budget of many teams. If we introduced caps in spending, playing squads, back room teams etc. they would apply to all counties and affect more counties than Dublin. The main crux of my argument is that if we change the rules of the game to force teams to abandon defensive strategies, then we are likely to see many more mismatches and non events. For example, while I accept the football in Ulster is not the prettiest, which provincial Championship would you rather watch? Dublin running up a cricket score and winning games after 20 minutes in Leinster, or an intense, low scoring but competitive game in Ulster, where a team rarely successfully defends it's title? I worry that if we go down the route of forcing teams to abandon defending in numbers and leave themselves open, we may see more and more non contests. Despite that I agree something has to be done. But it will take additional measures to changing the playing rules to ensure we have an attractive game AND a reasonably competitive one.

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Fair enough Johnboy, although again a large assumption re Dublin's financial resources and again goes to show that people only use the population stat to suit their argument (player choice) and ignore it when it doesn't suit (distribution of funds across that population). By that second point I mean that per head of population Dublin spend a lot less than some counties e.g. Mayo, Kildare, Cork etc from memory. So myth busted on that one.

Something has to be done alright but we have to remember that rule changes effect all teams so people need to consider that, for example, limiting the amount of hand passes may also adversely effect the sides using 'more traditional' man to man tactics. A rule such as that will not limit defensive formation tactics but will prevent this overuse of the hand pass and re-introduce the foot back into the sport so that it is no longer limited to shots and kick-outs for some teams.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 03/04/2015 20:44:17    1710304

Daft logic,by that argument Kk should be well down the pecking order.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 03/04/2015 20:55:25    1710309

fabio8
County: USA
Posts: 1667

1710267
because some counties have a tiny pick hill with very few clubs..population is a huge factor in ensuring a high quality panel

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I think you're overstating it Fabio. All other kinds of factors come into play. Look at hurling and in football Kerry have 1 and a half times more all-Ireland's than Dublin. No Antrim, Down, Derry, Limerick near the top of the roll of honour yet all with large populations. Look at Dublin's barren spell from 83

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 03/04/2015 20:55:30    1710310

fabio dont generally agree though
you will say im from dublin so its easy for me to say that
but I have experience of being with a very limited pick club
we struggled to get 15 players from week to week growing up
but the nearest club to us had 25-30 players each week to select from
we never lost to them once and played them almost every year from under9s to minor
they had fantastic clubhouse own pitch and never short of players
we played in a corporation pitch, no clubhouse struggled for players but were far better team with far better players
we played championship games against the big known clubs and always held our own

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 03/04/2015 20:57:03    1710311

thats an isolated situation hill..i will say its easy to say that being from dublin cause thats exactly what it is....the likes of longford leitrim and fermanagh would be competing every year if population didnt matter..football is huge in these counties..kerry are not a small county..they may well not be anything like dublin but they are still one of the bigger counties and very one sport dominated which helps...look at the olympics or any sport...they are dominated by the bigger countries..same in soccer most of the teams come from the bigger cities in those countries....population isnt everything im well aware but it helps a great deal certainly when it comes to competitiveness

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/04/2015 21:54:06    1710328

and thats probably because you happened to have a strong set of players and they had a weak one..there is countless examples of this in club gaa...over the course of the clubs history i imagine they were a lot more successful though...if they werent then they really should access how best to make use of their greater pick!

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/04/2015 21:55:42    1710329

Sure the Dubs have all the aces. Bigger population, more money, home pitch advantage, their players have the pick of the high wage jobs, they've rakes of sponsors. Funny how there was no call to split Dublin im two between '95 and the 2011 final !!! If you can't beat them either join them, try to better them or stay at home. Good to see them being innovative and try learning from other sports. A lot of good coaches in different sports try learning from other sport. Kieran McGeeney trained with the All Blacks once upon a time at his own expense.

I don't believe Dublin's success in recent years has dropped the standard of so-called weaker counties. GAA structure has some part to play here. I've posted here before they should scrap the existing league, just an pre-season for stronger counties, andake 4 divisions with 2 counties from each division. Division 3 and 4 counties with ambition cannot improve playing counties of a similar poor standard in the league and morale being sapped by a big defeat in championship.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7349 - 04/04/2015 08:35:29    1710334

its quite smart to have basketball help...the two sports are heavily linked

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 04/04/2015 14:09:57    1710384

i dont feel its an isolated thing fabio
limerick is a big city in munster yet have never held a grip on either football or hurling in the province
derry is another big city that has never had much success at the top
as for the question of in both the club i was with and the neighbours history
he club i was with would have a far better history of achieving that the neighbours
and had far more county players in the last 30 years
but the club would not heed the clear warning signs that where flashing when i was there
its run by country guys and they continued to play the older guys instead of bringing
the underage talents through
which resulted in them walking away from the club
and now they have been left with a situation where that older group of players are finished and
they have needed to throw the junior team effectivly into senior and falling down to succesive relegations

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 04/04/2015 15:07:22    1710406

derry is due to serious social issues though hill and the troubles..the conditions in derry city werent exactly ideal for gaa as they were basically lumped into ghettos....plus soccer quite big in the city there..gaelic football isnt that big in limerick...yes it sounds like shocking poor use of resources in the club you are speaking about...in dublin though gaelic football is massive so generally speaking they are always going to be there or there abouts..im not advocating a spilt or anything im just saying population does play quite a major role in enabling a team to compete obviously one has to consider how popular the sport actually is in the area...china and india arent good at soccer but theres no point throwing at that remark because soccer isnt exactly huge in either of those countries

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 04/04/2015 15:55:09    1710423