Ok guys lets talk about the 'hypocrisy' you perceive exists in the media.

Why do you think its there and what do you think is the cause of it? That's a genuine question now, I'm curious what Northern GAA people like yourselves think is the reason behind it.

To be honest I don't think it exists. Ulster football is very physical and fairly defence orientated in general. Some people don't like that, others see it's attraction.

Look I like rugby and for all the brilliance of Toulouse's traditional run from anywhere, off-loading, devil may care style; I always found a strange beauty in the good old traditional Munster forward power play, the roving maul, kick to the corners in your face aggression stuff. Likewise I'm a Kerry man and my preference in Gaelic is for high fielding, quick and accurate foot passing and a game built around talented forward who can score from anywhere. What's wrong with someone, in the media or the pub, saying they prefer that to the tactics Donegal or Tyrone used in recent years? Its just an opinion.

Sure if its successful either way why do you care?? Look you have a load of bregurdgers on here who can't stomach Kerry winning and use the way we played in the final as another stick to beat us. They claim that now we are somehow a dour defensive team (ignoring the inconvenient truth of our great attacking displays against the likes of Cork in the Munster final). Do you think it bothers us? Not in the least, we see it for what it is pure bregudgery.

There has been a lot of controversial incidents involving games and teams from Ulster in the last decade, I think that's the only reason for how Ulster teams are perceived in the media sometimes. If it was teams from Connacht do you not think it would be exactly the same? I don't see any intentional anti-Ulster bias.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 05/03/2015 14:22:26    1699459

Fascinating thread...

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 05/03/2015 14:47:23    1699472

Ulsterman
It's not about geography says Master......as he then says he 'has had an issue with Tyrone in the past.....AND Donegal'.....but he doesn't seem to have any issue with the Meath teams of the 80's and 90's, the Kerry and Dublin teams of the 70's and the and the game on Sunday. LOL

I never said I didn't have an issue with how those teams played. I said tyrone were more cynical than them. Also, I said I didn't have an issue with donegal. Why not just completely rewrite what I said and be done with it? The thing is Ulsterman, if I changed around what you said and put words in your mouth there would be outcry for 10 pages. So why is it that you can do it but when it is done to you it is a conspiracy against you, your fellow ulster posters and the whole of ulster? Maybe judge yourself by your own standards for once. You have rewritten what I have posted. Is that because of some bias? Do you have an anti Connacht bias and everyone in 'the east' is guilty of it? Well have your bias, I couldn't care less, but I take exception with being labelled as basically, a bigot, and I wont be taking it. Make appoint against what I said or don't respond at all.



Who are you kidding Master, you have a serious issue with Northern/Ulster teams and fans and you revel in that opinion. I think others have already said what I wanted to. This mentality goes well on beyond football and is more to do with partitionism and politics than anything else. I said recently that TWO GAA's now effectively exist with TWO sets of rules and standards being applied. The mantra and mindset is 'Sure they're only Nordies and good for it'.

Seriously, do you think I care enough about ulster, to revel in any opinion on the place or the people in it? Why would I invest so much energy into it? And that isn't a slight either, it is neither positive or negative. It has little to do with me as regards holding strong opinions, same as most places hundreds of kilometres away. Just like ulster doesnt care about what goes on in Connacht, and why would they?

I care no more or less than I do about munster or leinster. Why would I care more about ulster than say munster? Be it negative or positive. Why would I invest so much energy into it? You are talking nonsense man, and also, maybe stop referring to Connacht as 'the south'. We are in the west thank you. Maybe you can run some of your amateur phycology 101 on the mentality behind that term...

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/03/2015 14:52:28    1699475

TheHermit - In answer to your first question, my view is that any hypocrisy that exists came from Tyrone v Kerry 2003 and Pat Spillane's reaction to it (was it then he coined the term puke football?). I don't think on that day Tyrone were any more cycnical than any team, they just were relentless and ferocious in their tackling and closing down of Kerry players. Not giving them an inch to move. I don't think anyone expected it and Pat's reaction was more from shock than anything. Tyrone (and to a certain extent Ulster football) were tarred with that brush since. (A perfect example of this hypocrisy would be Spillane's analysis of the 1996 final: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpFFmlAPCek I can't imagine him remaining so calm and humourous if he was analysing the Cavan Armagh brawl recently.) Joe Brolly doesn't help matters, exlpoding at any opportunity.

I think that during Ulster teams recent peak years, pundits hadn't seen anything as intense before and couldn't comprehend why other top teams such a Kerry & Dublin weren't able to cope with it and so reverted to lazy analysis.

I would say the top teams have now taken this approach as a template and improved it. Look at how Mayos forwards for example close down the opposition. They don't give them time to think on the ball.

From a Down perspective, in the 2010 latter stages after every match on our run to the final the analysis seemed to focus on how a short turn around time (Sligo game) or refereeing decisions were the reason down progressed as opposed to playing better than the other team(Kerry & Kildare matches). Even in the final we were told how superior Cork were and how we got hammered, even though we lost by a single point. Unfortunately it's been the only time in recent years we've got far enough for people to comment on our games, so can't really compare to the scrutiny Tyrone//Monaghan/Donegal/Armagh have been put under, but there certainly did seem to be a bias against us.

In reference to your second point, I think Ulster football has only become fairly defence oriented in the past few years. If you look at Armagh in 02,03, Tyrone in 03,05,08, Down in 10, these teams were scoring at least 17/18 points every match (with the exception of one or two games).

I would agree with you in that there have been an awful lot controversial incidents with Ulster teams in the last decade, which does us no favours.

kinglarsson (Down) - Posts: 88 - 05/03/2015 15:25:24    1699489

'Could I ask, why you refer to me as being from 'the south'? Im actually from the west. That is the west of Ireland, not the south of ulster. And them Im the hypocrite? Leave the politics at the door, nobody is interested.'


I havent mentioned the South, or for that matter the East or West, in any of my posts, have a flick through them there!

I'll happily leave my politics and any possible misconceptions I have at the door, your problem is you cant and this stretches right back to when ball boy and enough from carlow spouted the same tripe!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 05/03/2015 15:29:47    1699493

There has been a lot of controversial incidents involving games and teams from Ulster in the last decade, I think that's the only reason for how Ulster teams are perceived in the media sometimes. If it was teams from Connacht do you not think it would be exactly the same? I don't see any intentional anti-Ulster bias.

Hermit does that really need answered again!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 05/03/2015 15:31:39    1699494

TheHermit
County: Kerry
Posts: 421

1699459


Ok guys lets talk about the 'hypocrisy' you perceive exists in the media.

Why do you think its there and what do you think is the cause of it? That's a genuine question now, I'm curious what Northern GAA people like yourselves think is the reason behind it.

To be honest I don't think it exists. Ulster football is very physical and fairly defence orientated in general. Some people don't like that, others see it's attraction.

Look I like rugby and for all the brilliance of Toulouse's traditional run from anywhere, off-loading, devil may care style; I always found a strange beauty in the good old traditional Munster forward power play, the roving maul, kick to the corners in your face aggression stuff. Likewise I'm a Kerry man and my preference in Gaelic is for high fielding, quick and accurate foot passing and a game built around talented forward who can score from anywhere. What's wrong with someone, in the media or the pub, saying they prefer that to the tactics Donegal or Tyrone used in recent years? Its just an opinion.

Sure if its successful either way why do you care?? Look you have a load of bregurdgers on here who can't stomach Kerry winning and use the way we played in the final as another stick to beat us. They claim that now we are somehow a dour defensive team (ignoring the inconvenient truth of our great attacking displays against the likes of Cork in the Munster final). Do you think it bothers us? Not in the least, we see it for what it is pure bregudgery.

There has been a lot of controversial incidents involving games and teams from Ulster in the last decade, I think that's the only reason for how Ulster teams are perceived in the media sometimes. If it was teams from Connacht do you not think it would be exactly the same? I don't see any intentional anti-Ulster bias.

---------------------------------------------------------------

You see Hermit, the point is there have been plenty of incidents involving non- Ulster teams over the past decade too (the strike on Nicholas Murphy at the throw in of the 2009 final is one that springs to mind as obviously Sundays game between Kerry and Dublin does too) but they only appear to become controversial when an Ulster team is involved! And therein lies the hypocrisy!

Lifford Gael (Donegal) - Posts: 1925 - 05/03/2015 15:44:09    1699499

bumpernut
I havent mentioned the South, or for that matter the East or West, in any of my posts, have a flick through them there!

And I haven't mentioned 'nordies'. Nor have I mentioned politics, or history, or any single thing other than football. Yet it is thrown at me constantly, even though I have 100% no interest in it. Go figure.


I'll happily leave my politics and any possible misconceptions I have at the door, your problem is you cant and this stretches right back to when ball boy and enough from carlow spouted the same tripe!

Here is the thing, I don't have any politics. I have no interest in them. I have never expressed anything on politics on this site, so what you are referring to in the above is completely invented. Im commenting on a team playing football, that is what I have always done. When some guys disagree with me they start talking about politics, or from what I can see, using politics as a shield. My views are not based on any politics though.

Has it ever occurred to you that someone may just has an issue with tyrone's tactics? It is a lot more common than you seem to believe.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/03/2015 15:59:00    1699512

Lifford Gael
You see Hermit, the point is there have been plenty of incidents involving non- Ulster teams over the past decade too (the strike on Nicholas Murphy at the throw in of the 2009 final is one that springs to mind as obviously Sundays game between Kerry and Dublin does too) but they only appear to become controversial when an Ulster team is involved! And therein lies the hypocrisy

Again, what are you talking about?

1) Nobody said there was never any incidents in any game between teams from the 3 other provinces, so naming singular incidents proves nothing. The point is there are far more incidents in ulster, and there are, it is obvious that there are. There will be far more incidents per game in the ulster championship this year than any other championship, same as every year. What part of that statement isn't accurate?
2) There was massive outcry over that incident with murphy, it still gets mentioned often. Same with the mass brawl in 96. Also, the game between Dublin and Kerry is getting far more press than the one between monaghan and mayo, yet the latter had far worse incidents. Shouldn't that be the other way around? Shouldn't it be monaghan getting all the heat? Hypocrisy is right.

You are re-writing history at this stage.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 05/03/2015 16:11:30    1699522

Rather than some form of anti-Ulster bias I think that most media criticism of Ulster teams is because of incidents which go above and beyond the normal pulling and dragging which we saw on Sunday in Killarney.

I will give you a recent example that sticks out in my mind: In 2013 the Tyrone and Kerry minors meet in the All Ireland Q-final. Now that under age Tyrone team went out to do nothing else but stop Kerry playing however they could. It was a shocking display of negative, cynical football and to see that it was an under age side which had been sent out to do it was the worst part for me. If you can't even let 16 year olds of to play football where is the game going. And that's not sour grapes, it was obvious Kerry were simply not good enough to beat them even when they went down to 13 men. But it just illustrated to me, and many others how prevalent cynical tactics were now becoming.

Its not anti-Ulster bias if commentators and spectators are suggesting that certain counties in that province have made cynicism a part of their style of football at times over the past decade. They are just relaying what is in front of their eyes. If that Meath team of the 80s was around today the same would be said of them.

And Lifford as regards incidents like Kennelly and Murphy in 2009, I agree with you that it was cynical and has no place in the game. But you see there is a big difference between an individual, in the heat of the moment, doing something cynical and an entire team being sent out to play a certain way.

That's my own view anyway, I'm sure you'll disagree...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 05/03/2015 16:28:17    1699530

Id have to agree with hermit on this one.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 05/03/2015 17:06:31    1699545

royaldunne
County: Meath
Posts: 6862

1699545
Id have to agree with hermit on this one.

----
I'd have to agree and even go one further and say that I even find myself agreeing with TheMaster on this thread. I've said it, now I have to wash my mouth out.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 05/03/2015 18:21:23    1699562

It's okay 'cause Kerry are only negative when they have to be.

What would Kerry's tactics be if their first 4 matches in the championship were as Tyrone's this year...Donegal, then Armagh, then perhaps Derry, then perhaps Monaghan?

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 05/03/2015 19:13:14    1699575

Hermit why do you call a team that sets up defensively 'cynical'? they are two different things completely but somehow you cant say one without the other when Tyrone or Donegal are the topic. That minor match you mentioned, Tyrone scored 17 points that day, Donegal averaged around the same amount in 2012. Simply put, you cannot tally up scores like that without being well versed in attack. I would suggest you have the kingdom goggles well placed when you watch your county get out manoeuvred, and the word cynicism gets thrown in for no other reason than sour grapes, because as you said earlier 'we don't like to lose in Kerry'.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 05/03/2015 19:25:24    1699576

It's no surprise that Kerry and Dublin folk find themselves agreeing with each other. I mean why bite the hand that feeds you, it would be madness wouldn't it. Kerry and Dublin are the GAA's Golden duo who get EVERY favourable decison on and off the pitch and who have a salivating, fawning media who worship at their altar. They are NEVER on the end of negative criticism or coverage south of the border and the only comparable topic would the the Scottish media's uncritical, glowing, lapdog coverage of the former Rangers team. It is embarrassing in the extreme but Dublin and Kerry will ALWAYS be excused their cynical play and style so long as it beats the Nordies and that is the ultimate aim for an increasingly partitionist GAA and Southern media.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 05/03/2015 19:29:56    1699577

Hermit why do you call a team that sets up defensively 'cynical'? they are two different things completely but somehow you cant say one without the other when Tyrone or Donegal are the topic. That minor match you mentioned, Tyrone scored 17 points that day, Donegal averaged around the same amount in 2012. Simply put, you cannot tally up scores like that without being well versed in attack. I would suggest you have the kingdom goggles well placed when you watch your county get out manoeuvred, and the word cynicism gets thrown in for no other reason than sour grapes, because as you said earlier 'we don't like to lose in Kerry'.

Well lad you're just after taking various different points I was making and sticking them together as evidence to suit your own preconceived notions.

Firstly, please show me where exactly I stated defensive football is cynical? I merely made a point that perhaps a reason Ulster GAA supporters think they don't get the credit they deserve in the media is that a lot of people simply prefer attacking football to defensive football, that's a preference and nothing to do with Ulster bias.

Secondly, please explain to me where I called Donegal cynical? That seems to something you are implying from the above. I never considered Donegal cynical, I merely stated I would prefer watching a more attacking style of football. You bring up the 2012 Q-final? Did I mention that game? No. Do I or anyone else in Kerry feel Donegal didn't beat us fair and square? No.

Thirdly, did I say the Tyrone minors played defensive football? Again I did not and as you rightly stated they kicked an impressive scoreline that day. I stated they went out and cynically tried to stop Kerry playing when they didn't have possession. Anyone who witnessed that game or read a match report could not argue anything else. Have a look at the cards issued to their team that day.

You are right Kerry people don't like when we lose in the GAA, but we reserve our strongest criticism for our own side because we expect to win every major game we play. That's one of the main reasons we have the legacy we do. You can hate to lose and still credit the opposition with being the better team on the day no matter what end of the country they are from.

As I said, you and others on here have seem to have a preconceived belief/obsession that the media and GAA supporters in the other 23 counties resent you for winning anything in the game. The contribution made by Ulsterman after you, sums that up in my opinion.

I think I've made my point, so I'll leave it at that...

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 05/03/2015 21:13:46    1699632

It's no surprise that Kerry and Dublin folk find themselves agreeing with each other. I mean why bite the hand that feeds you, it would be madness wouldn't it. Kerry and Dublin are the GAA's Golden duo who get EVERY favourable decison on and off the pitch and who have a salivating, fawning media who worship at their altar. They are NEVER on the end of negative criticism or coverage south of the border and the only comparable topic would the the Scottish media's uncritical, glowing, lapdog coverage of the former Rangers team. It is embarrassing in the extreme but Dublin and Kerry will ALWAYS be excused their cynical play and style so long as it beats the Nordies and that is the ultimate aim for an increasingly partitionist GAA and Southern media.

-----
Of course but why not seek the views of Ulster analysts and commentators. How about Joe Brolly and Martin Carney for starters? What would their views be on your comments above? The 'everyone is against us' siege mentality suits some people's agenda and in some cases, like yours, it extends well beyond sport. If you pollyfill the chip on your shoulder for a moment and try and objectively read TheMaster's posts above, a lot of what he is saying is true. It may stick in the craw of some who, like I say, love the siege mentality, like yourself, but he is pointing out some home truths there.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 05/03/2015 21:21:57    1699639

As a matter of interest in 2000 Armagh drew with Kerry in an All Ireland semi final. Cathal O'Rourke was man of the match. As the ball was thrown up a Kerry player gave him a 'softener' and he left the field early on injured. I brought this up with a top referee at the time and he said that I had to remember that when you get to Croke Park you have to work harder for your frees. Armagh learnt from this and got over the line in 2002.

Armaghball (Armagh) - Posts: 96 - 05/03/2015 21:56:48    1699662

Whatever about teams setting themselves up tactically to play a type of game that could be viewed as negative or cynical. But the reason why a lot to it, even in passages of play, is because they are facilitated by an inconsistent ref with some opinion or view of how the game should be played. The ref maybe isn't aware he is being manipulated but you can see more and more now. Which takes us back to the start of this thread. In the Kerry v Dublin game the ref was out and out shocking, the more you rerun the match the worse it gets. Which also begs the question, does a ref review these games? If he did he would surely hang up his boots. He actually at one point ran from a confrontation.

At the heart of the most controversial games is a poor ref, maybe they are just poorly equipped to deal with the level of off the ball muck that goes on. Umpires right in front of incidents who ignore it, linesmen who though ref's themselves never ever involve themselves in the game. If there is a set of rules these should at least be able to control a game. In the ref's defense he could have sent off a lot more, maybe there was a fear factor on his part but the game at times was reduced to chaos. The sad thing is if you can achieve "success" playing that type of muck (and what else can you call it !!) everyone else follows. Its not a North, South, East or West thing, the problem is the good stuff gets lost and over shadowed by the bad. No matter what we think as GAA folk, if I ask people who don't really follow GAA but watch it, they hate the way football in particular is going. Thats what all these cards and rule changes are about, but there are rules on everything and very few are applied and the consequences are games resemble a nursery match at 10.00 on saturday morning. IMO I wouldn't blame a county or a team for it, the people responsible for the game are the GAA and it is just another massive failure to add the littany of failures from that body over the last few years. But I get a sense reading various threads that an awful lot here are happy with this evolving crap, maybe its better its taken off our screens.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4897 - 06/03/2015 08:24:49    1699669

Arock: take a look at this article from today's Irish Independent. Pat McEnaney has picked out Eddie Kinsellas performance in reffing the Dublin v Kerry game as flawless...

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/mcenaney-referees-were-not-up-to-scratch-31045088.html

Lifford Gael (Donegal) - Posts: 1925 - 06/03/2015 12:57:51    1699784