Joncarter , what exactly do you mean "build a support base within a county"? Very strange thing to come out with . You have your base by virtue of being from that county . And why do you think we need more games ? So we can have more opportunities for pundits to slag our players off , to give out about the standard of play ? So we can have more posters come on here and run counties down ? Tell how they changed over to Little House on the Prairie rather than watch the tripe on show ? So we can increase the workload on our amateur sports people ?
Amateurism has everything to do with it and club and inter county are two sides of the same coin . I cannot see players (club and county) being very happy with playing 20 weeks in a row for inter county . Supporters either . Who exactly do you expect to traipse about all over the country for 20 weeks in a row and pay in to fund all this ? From my own County's perspective , once you get beat in Ulster I would say you would be lucky to get 60% turn out for a qualifier even if it's only up the road . People's ears don't prick up again unless you put a bit of a run together . You'd be lucky to get League type attendances if you ran with that . And don't get me started on club . Very generous of you to allow club players to get started from September on . Sure why not play 40 games and let the club players slog it out in December ?
Ormond , I do get what you're saying regarding building in the league and Championship being the main competition but only straight knockout captures the imagination . We love it ! And what's so wrong with enjoying club action once inter county is over ?

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 17/01/2015 20:38:27    1684124

Phew, thats a lot to take in hard times.
We wouldnt be increasing their workload, as I clearly said managers would be forced to reduce training sessions, and the inter county season would be shorter. How is that an increase in their workload?It would actually end up in a net reduction of the workload.
Your average GAA intercounty team plays about 10 games a year, about 2 or 3 of which they take seriously. Your average rugby province/LOI soccer team plays about 30 games a year, all of which they take seriously. Go figure. I can see it here in Connacht where the rugby team is really becoming the main sports team in the city. If they adopted the GAA system, where they play only 3 or 4 games a year that they truly wanted to win, I guarantee you they wouldnt be making as much progress. More games means more exposure (media etc.), and the more games there are, the more likely it is that casual supporters would go and watch the team play, and start taking an interest in them. Your moaning about people 'traipsing" all over the country? Well Connacht play half their games in other countries, and even though the fans cant follow them, they still watch the games etc. It helps to maintain an interest in the team.
All that stuff youre moaning about pundits slagging players off etc. is a question of attitude, and has nothing to do with the SFC format. The idea that you would factor in what the pundits say after a game when coming up with a format for the SFC is unbelievable. Youre implying that we should have less games because then we wont have to listen to Brolly and Spillane as much? That is the most outrageous thing I have ever read on this forum, and I have been here for about 5 years.
Youre crying about the clubs. My system would give the clubs 8 months of the year, all to themselves, with no interference from inter county managers. I have to say that I think thats quite club-friendly, and even though you were being snide when you said it, I actually do think thats quite generous.
And finally, players unfortunately only really care about the championship. You advocate a knock out system. So you would like to see a situation whereby a player trains hard for months and then gets knocked out after 70 minutes??? Thats what you call fair? Please explain.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 17/01/2015 21:18:39    1684138

Hardtimes, you're speaking a lot of home truths here. There can either be more games of less importance, or less of more importance.
I'm with you re straight knockout. It's something that suits the stronger counties with deep panels (like us!)- now you have to not only kill the giant, you have to get a stake through its heart when it comes back as a vampire.
I fell out of love with the back door when the potential Loch Garman-Port Láirge hurling final of 2004 became boring ol' Rebels v Cats.

an tseabhac (Kerry) - Posts: 441 - 17/01/2015 21:49:31    1684144

Depends what you mean by less games of more importance an tseabhc. Playing only 2 or 3 important games a year (which is the lot of most counties) is too few.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 17/01/2015 21:59:29    1684148

There was once an FRC proposal that wanted to abolish the league and provincial championships. Completing the championship in a league format to produce provincial finalists and all ireland semi finalists. Got shot down of course. It was similar to Paul bardens top 16 bottom 16 split in the indo.

If I was dictator of the GAA this is what I would do:
1. Abolish league and preseason competitions.
2. Championship split into 4 groups of eight
3. Each team plays 7 games from 1st week in February and April (March for club football)
4. Knockout Provincial championships June to mid July. 4 winners progressing to all ireland quarters
5. all ireland preliminary round consist of 4 div 1 teams (all home draws), 2 div 2, 1 div 3 and 1 div 4 team (provincial winners exempt)
6. All ireland quarters (open draw) played on August bank holiday
7. Semi finals and finals played by end of August.

This leaves march, May and sept for county club championship matches and OCR and nov to finish it to all ireland final.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 18/01/2015 10:43:54    1684155

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 252

1684155
There was once an FRC proposal that wanted to abolish the league and provincial championships. Completing the championship in a league format to produce provincial finalists and all ireland semi finalists. Got shot down of course. It was similar to Paul bardens top 16 bottom 16 split in the indo.

If I was dictator of the GAA this is what I would do:
1. Abolish league and preseason competitions.
2. Championship split into 4 groups of eight
3. Each team plays 7 games from 1st week in February and April (March for club football)
4. Knockout Provincial championships June to mid July. 4 winners progressing to all ireland quarters
5. all ireland preliminary round consist of 4 div 1 teams (all home draws), 2 div 2, 1 div 3 and 1 div 4 team (provincial winners exempt)
6. All ireland quarters (open draw) played on August bank holiday
7. Semi finals and finals played by end of August.

This leaves march, May and sept for county club championship matches and OCR and nov to finish it to all ireland final.


Disagree here. i think the more open draws and less seeding involved, the better the chances for smaller counties. We cant expect the game to develop or interest to grow in smaller counties if they are faced with winning in the back yard of the kerrys, corks, mayos, donegals etcs

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 18/01/2015 11:36:17    1684160

Joncarter , the media thing I said in answer to the assertion that we need more games . Media and public perspective are important if you're talking about marketing a product and will relate to bums on seats , which is how all this will be paid for . You cannot ignore this and using this as a yard stick there is no appetite for more games . You're advocating putting on 320 games where in reality only about 15 games annually really wet the appetite .
Putting on that intense a season will increase the workload , outrageous to suggest otherwise . Inter county players still have to play club as well .
Again stop comparing to rugby and LOI . Players there have no other team commitments . I've been to plenty of LOI matches and the numbers would not support what you suggest . As for rugby , lets face it , the professional game here is subsidised by the huge popularity of the game in UK and France - big populations , huge TV revenue . The game would not be financially viable in this country on it's own - hence the panic when Premiership teams suggested rearranging the allocation of TV revenue . You said it yourself , Connacht fans don't travel to half the games . For GAA this = no money .
You don't like snide then don't talk like club players are just an afterthought or just a plain nuisance . What kind of tin pot organisation would arrange a programme where the needs of 98% of its playing members were ignored . You allocate 7 months and say this is generous . The late Autumn , Winter and early Spring months . When will games be played . Weather and surface conditions aside , if you rule out floodlights that rules out evenings . Respect lads work on a Saturday and that leaves Sunday mornings or afternoons . Generous indeed .
Sport is not fair . It's cruel and heart breaking and controversial - that's why we love it . Plenty of players train hard for months and get nothing for it . Take the Dublin area for example . They could probably field 5 inter county teams that could compete at an above average level . That's a lot of very dedicated club players who train hard for months but will never see the light of day in a county jersey . Every county has plenty of dedicated club players ! And you want to take away the best playing months of the year from the club scene . Rugby clubs would be rubbing their hands with glee if your system was implemented .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 18/01/2015 13:11:19    1684176

Exactly An tseabhac . The romance is gone from the Championship . Only players from big counties will ever get to experience All Ireland Semi Final day in Croker .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 18/01/2015 13:14:41    1684178

The national league is the perfect championship format. Therefore play the provincial championships April/May and start the four division championships in June. Each county will have 7 championship games that matter because only division 1 teams could win the all-Ireland, division 2 teams will wish to be promoted to compete for the next years all-Ireland etc. I don't think it would bother them but Dublin,Kerry, Cork etc would not have to listen to how they have an easier path. Club football would be given priority Feb/Mar and Sept/Dec.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 18/01/2015 15:28:48    1684201

Joncarter , the media thing I said in answer to the assertion that we need more games . Media and public perspective are important if you're talking about marketing a product and will relate to bums on seats , which is how all this will be paid for . You cannot ignore this and using this as a yard stick there is no appetite for more games . You're advocating putting on 320 games where in reality only about 15 games annually really wet the appetite .
Putting on that intense a season will increase the workload , outrageous to suggest otherwise . Inter county players still have to play club as well .
Again stop comparing to rugby and LOI . Players there have no other team commitments . I've been to plenty of LOI matches and the numbers would not support what you suggest . As for rugby , lets face it , the professional game here is subsidised by the huge popularity of the game in UK and France - big populations , huge TV revenue . The game would not be financially viable in this country on it's own - hence the panic when Premiership teams suggested rearranging the allocation of TV revenue . You said it yourself , Connacht fans don't travel to half the games . For GAA this = no money .
You don't like snide then don't talk like club players are just an afterthought or just a plain nuisance . What kind of tin pot organisation would arrange a programme where the needs of 98% of its playing members were ignored . You allocate 7 months and say this is generous . The late Autumn , Winter and early Spring months . When will games be played . Weather and surface conditions aside , if you rule out floodlights that rules out evenings . Respect lads work on a Saturday and that leaves Sunday mornings or afternoons . Generous indeed .
Sport is not fair . It's cruel and heart breaking and controversial - that's why we love it . Plenty of players train hard for months and get nothing for it . Take the Dublin area for example . They could probably field 5 inter county teams that could compete at an above average level . That's a lot of very dedicated club players who train hard for months but will never see the light of day in a county jersey . Every county has plenty of dedicated club players ! And you want to take away the best playing months of the year from the club scene . Rugby clubs would be rubbing their hands with glee if your system was implemented .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 18/01/2015 15:48:53    1684207

The rugby people are already rubbing their hands with glee hardtimes. Rugby has made huge strides in galway city this last while and I believe that Connacht rugby will soon be the cities primary sports team. Would this happen if they played 2 or 3 big games a year? No.
My system would NOT increase the intercounty players workload. Managers would have NO choice but to reduce the amount of training sessions, so this would offset the extra games. Thats the third time Ive had to explain that to you.
I take your point about the bad weather conditions, but players train hard in these conditions anyway, or alternatively the intercounty season could be moved to a February to May slot,and clubs from June to November. maybe. Why do you accuse me of ignoring club players? I would bet my life that this system would benefit club players.
Training like a dog for months and getting knocked out after 70 minutes is not controversial, its just plain stupid.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 18/01/2015 21:39:44    1684388

Byanthon
County: Tyrone
Posts: 967

1684201 The national league is the perfect championship format. Therefore play the provincial championships April/May and start the four division championships in June. Each county will have 7 championship games that matter because only division 1 teams could win the all-Ireland, division 2 teams will wish to be promoted to compete for the next years all-Ireland etc. I don't think it would bother them but Dublin,Kerry, Cork etc would not have to listen to how they have an easier path. Club football would be given priority Feb/Mar and Sept/Dec.

Playing club football championship outside of summer will lower standards in club players and remove any chance a small quick player has of playing football at all. You need some club championship "windows" in the main intercounty season. Who would stick with club football when its only played on bad pitches in bad weather?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 19/01/2015 08:50:29    1684407

an tseabhac
County: Kerry
Posts: 410

1684144
Hardtimes, you're speaking a lot of home truths here. There can either be more games of less importance, or less of more importance.
I'm with you re straight knockout. It's something that suits the stronger counties with deep panels (like us!)- now you have to not only kill the giant, you have to get a stake through its heart when it comes back as a vampire.
I fell out of love with the back door when the potential Loch Garman-Port Láirge hurling final of 2004 became boring ol' Rebels v Cats.

Very good post. 100% in agreement. The aim of the backdoor was to give 'weaker' sides the chance of another game. That was its only aim. While this has actually worked out a secondary result has been to give the likes of Cork (hurling and football), Kerry, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Galway (football) the chance to win All-Irelands when they have been fairly and squarely beaten. As others have mentioned 'weaker' sides now seem to lose interested in the championship when they are beaten (as evidenced by an exodus of player to the USA) and stronger teams can now gear themselves to starting the championship in August. The Munster hurling and football championships had their zenith in the 1990s but have regressed since.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 19/01/2015 10:04:31    1684419

You might have explained it 3 times joncarter but it doesn't mean I have to agree with you ;) . There's already training bans in place which are ignored . Teams would still be training like dogs from start of year . And you'd still have to train while games are on . More games thick and fast , more injuries , bigger panels . Lads on the fringes with limited playing time keeping fitness levels up . Inter county managers for the most part love to flog players . We can agree to disagree .
Teams have a guaranteed 7 league games before Championship as it is . Plenty of games but they are dismissed because it's only league . Again I wouldn't be too quick to turn the Championship into another league . You could argue that they have more to play for in the current league than a new league . For example , if you went with the CL format , seeded , you might end up with a group of Dublin , Galway , Antrim , Waterford . Can't see a lot of motivation for half the teams in that . Again , would not capture the imagination of the general public till you got to last 8 , 16 at a stretch . Rightly or wrongly most teams will see themselves as having a crack at a provincial title . I wouldn't be too quick to get rid of these cups either with all that prestige and history . And I think other counties would buy into another province and if they didn't they wouldn't be long getting the message . For instance , ask a Kerryman how he would feel about a bunch of Jackeens coming down to Killarney in July looking to bring the Munster cup back to the capital , with the rest of Munster watching . Don't tell me he'd be unfazed . Could just imagine the team talks for that one !
Yes , rugby is getting traction , in my county as well . Young lads really enjoy it . They get their diet sheets at the start of the year , their training programme , they have their fixtures set out and there's a bit of organisation to it , less up in the air . Time for the GAA to get smart , nothing wrong with a bit of healthy competition . A sport that has the monopoly on players pick but then treats those players with contempt is not necessarily a healthy sport .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 19/01/2015 12:17:11    1684466

bennybunny is 100% on the money. i think that a straight knockout competition would mean much more honesty in games.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 19/01/2015 12:18:46    1684467

I would play the Championship along side the League. The Intercounty football season would start in May and finish in August. I would leave the leagues the way they are. The only thing that I would do is scrap the league finals and semi-finals. Team with the most points at the end wins the league. The Championship I would run like the World Cup. Seedings would be determined by what division that your playing in for example First division teams are first seeds and so on. Here is an example of how the season would work out:

Week 1: League round 1......................................10 May
Week 2: Championship group stage game 1......17 May
Week 3: League round 2......................................24 May
Week 4: Championship group stage game 2.....7 June
Week 5: League round 3.....................................14 June
Week 6: Championship group stage game 3.....21 June
Week 7: League round 4......................................28 June
Week 8: Championship Last 16 Knockout..........5 July
Week 9: League round 5......................................12 July
Week 10: Championship Q/Fs..............................19 July
Week 11: League round 6.....................................26 July
Week 12: Championship S/Fs...............................9 Aug
Week 13: League round 7.....................................16 Aug
Week 14: Championship Final...............................23 Aug

All championship matches be played at neutral grounds. No replays. Extra-time to be played in all championship matches. Bank Holiday weekends are freed up.

OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 19/01/2015 14:20:36    1684526

18/01/2015 13:11:19 Hardtimes
Joncarter, the media thing I said in answer to the assertion that we need more games. Media and public perspective are important if you're talking about marketing a product and will relate to bums on seats, which is how all this will be paid for. You cannot ignore this and using this as a yard stick there is no appetite for more games. You're advocating putting on 320 games where in reality only about 15 games annually really wet the appetite. Putting on that intense a season will increase the workload, outrageous to suggest otherwise. Inter county players still have to play club as well.GAA in these times of increased competition from other sports needs more games. There would be appetite for more of the right kind of games. Changing the system is needed as the system is unequal now and doesn't get the best out of what the GAA has to offer
18/01/2015 13:11:19 Hardtimes
Again stop comparing to rugby and LOI. Players there have no other team commitments. I've been to plenty of LOI matches and the numbers would not support what you suggest. As for rugby, lets face it, the professional game here is subsidised by the huge popularity of the game in UK and France - big populations, huge TV revenue. The game would not be financially viable in this country on it's own - hence the panic when Premiership teams suggested rearranging the allocation of TV revenue. You said it yourself, Connacht fans don't travel to half the games. For GAA this = no money.When you say rugby players have no other team commitments what do you mean?
Rugby isn't subsidised by the populations of England/France.

18/01/2015 13:14:41 Hardtimes
Exactly An tseabhac. The romance is gone from the Championship. Only players from big counties will ever get to experience All Ireland Semi Final day in Croker. Romance isn't gone from the championship. When was the last time a non Kerry/Cork county won Munster? Changing back to straight knock out and nthing else hands the initiative to rugby and other sports to attract and gain more support
18/01/2015 21:39:44 joncarter
The rugby people are already rubbing their hands with glee hardtimes. Rugby has made huge strides in galway city this last while and I believe that Connacht rugby will soon be the cities primary sports team. Would this happen if they played 2 or 3 big games a year? No.
My system would NOT increase the intercounty players workload. Managers would have NO choice but to reduce the amount of training sessions, so this would offset the extra games. Thats the third time Ive had to explain that to you.
I take your point about the bad weather conditions, but players train hard in these conditions anyway, or alternatively the intercounty season could be moved to a February to May slot,and clubs from June to November. maybe. Why do you accuse me of ignoring club players? I would bet my life that this system would benefit club players.
Training like a dog for months and getting knocked out after 70 minutes is not controversial, its just plain stupid. Very true. Rugby has progressed in recent times as the big sides in Ireland play much more than they did and get much more exposure to public as a result.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 19/01/2015 16:25:54    1684582

Current structure keeps the strong stonger and the weak weaker. So scrap the current leage and get 4 divisions of 2 teams from each current division. These will be purely to try and improve the standards. Division 4 teams won't improve byplaying the same standard always. If they have ambitions they will beat some old division 3 team in a new league, give a division 2 team a run for their money and aim to compete with an old Division1 team. As the league year ends then set the divisions up based on 2 from top eight per division, 2 from 9 to 16 etc. Scrap the FBD, the McKenna cup etc and start the National League in January. No playoffs. League done and dusted in early April then straight into open draw provincial championships, with the draws done before each round all games knockout. Championship then starts in late June. No game in Croke Park before the final unless Dublin are drawn at home. Open draw between rounds, all games knockout , no backdoor at all at all! We currently have a football championship that, besides Ulster, doesn't get going u til August because of the backdoor rule. A knockout championship will bring more intensity and should bring better games.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 19/01/2015 17:38:26    1684607

Ormond , I've no interest in discussing rugby to be honest , there's another forum for that . My comments weren't intended to spark debate , quite the opposite in fact - wish people would stop dragging rugby into it to suit their arguments . Two different sports . I think you know what I mean by them anyway - rugby revenues in this country would be slashed without the European/UK game . And I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about the internationals . Club rugby is not built around the international game .
There are many things we can learn from rugby but we can't mirror it .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 19/01/2015 17:47:24    1684609

Ok , here's an idea that guarantees everyone at least 4 Championship games .
The championship will be structured as my original post . Straight knockout , you lose you're out of the race for Sam . The back door to be run as a separate cup , the Tommy Murphy for argument sake . If you lose up to and including a provincial final you go into this cup . So you have 16 first round losers , 8 prov semi losers and 4 prov final losers . Depending when you go out of the Championship proper is when you go into this cup . Structure it that the 16 losers get at least 3 more games , the 8 losers get at least 2 more games and the provincial final losers get at least 1 more game . Would give more prestige to winning the cup as well as you would have some very decent teams in there . Make a change from having the cup for the ugly sisters of Gaelic Football .

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 19/01/2015 20:18:27    1684639