03/12/2014 15:59:02
Greengrass
Fabio, it was contended that Stephen Hunt was operating at the same level as Brian O Driscoll. He isn't. He was never nor will he be anywhere near the levels if Brian O Driscoll. Benny there are more soccer players than any other sport in the world. By your line of reasoning that fact and that fact alone means that it was easier for Muhammad Ali, Roger Federer, Michael Jordan, Richie Mc Caw, Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, Henry Shefflin, and Brian Lara to get to the pinnacle of their sports and to play at the levels they played at than it was for Messi and Ronaldo. You provide no evidence for that assertion other than a bland sweeping statement about the numbers playing soccer being greater than the numbers playing any other sport. Sorry boys but you exhibit no understanding of the concept of and the requirements of sporting excellence. Your argument is one dimensional, simplistic and to use two adjectives beloved of MesAmis shallow and lackng in depth. Fair play Greengrass you are making this argument much better than I could ever. well done

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:03:53    1676450

they do play second fiddle for some of the french sides...luckily not all the french are like that and toulon toulouse and clermont in recent years take away games very seriously

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 20:04:05    1676451

03/12/2014 20:03:04
fabio8
well then why ormond did leinster run a special thing looking for lads over a certain size to try out for them?..in soccer an idea like this would be laughable..or any sport for that matter which requires a certain degree of skill...the guy sweeney isnt anti rugby he just rightly slags off the snobbery element in the sport..that doesnt make him anti rugby..the hayes situation shows how easy it can be to make it relative to soccer.....your 14 year old comment is laughable and shows 0 knowledge of the sportWhat arrogance. You just said rugby doesn't require a certain degree of skill. How does it not?
Leinster did as they wanted somebody to be that size. Their is nothing stating they have to.

Sweeney is anti rugby. Met him once and discussed it. Said things he cant put in newspaper but is very much anti rugby as a whole
Hayes making it doesn't show how easy compared to soccer at all.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:07:15    1676452

Thanks for the correction on Billy Bean Fabio. You are missing the point again in relation to what I have said . The rugby teams performance levels are way above the soccer teams at the moment. Nothing to do with numbers, opposition , groups or achievements. It is simply that the rugby players are performing at a much higher level. They are playing better than the soccer players.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 20:07:34    1676453

03/12/2014 16:27:33 GreenandRed
What criteria should you use to compare the level of difficulty to get to the top level in their respective sports? Basing it on the numbers playing the sport worldwide isn't a sound one. There are millions 'playing soccer' in the US, but I've seen kickabouts in New Mexico and the standard is appalling. The MLS standard isn't much better. Way less people play rugby in New Zealand than soccer in US but the standard is extremely high if you could compare them.

The original post was about GAA commitment. Depending on hurling or football and the area you're in the commitment levels vary. I don't think there's an objective way to compare commitment accross sports. Maybe, rather than claim one sport is better than another we could find common ground among them to compare and contrast. Are there Opta stats for GAA and Rugby like there are in Soccer? There is opta stats or something similar in rugby.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:08:38    1676454

03/12/2014 17:14:10
MesAmis
No it wasn't. It was contended that Stephen's Hunt's achievements, when everything was put into comntext, actually ecilpse those of O'Driscoll's.
O'Driscoll excelled at a sport that a lot in Ireland can't play as there is no club near them/can't get into the right school. O'Driscoll was ahead of most people straight away in fairness because he was born to it.
Not so with Hunt. He started at the bottom with a lot more of us! Where in Ireland is their no clubs near people and that people cant play because of no club nearby?
The schools issue is different.
O Driscoll wasn't ahead of people simply by way of his birth.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:10:50    1676456

MesAmis et al, Your point regarding the levels in soccer v rugby is moot. It may be a case of one organisation filtering and consolidating while the other does not. Same for not living near a rugby club or attending a school that played rugby……John Hayes didn't play the game until he was 18. Hunt's achievements do not eclipse BOD. We have many Irish players who did what he did, to the same level.

It takes something special/different to make you the best at what you do. As a small island we don't often have this, but we punch above our weight! How about you look at the number of world class players we have produced in soccer? We have a had a fair few (Giles, Best, Jennings, Whiteside, Brady, McGrath, Roy Keane - to name some, not all). it can be done…... Hunt just is not one of them. He is a fine footballer who has enjoyed a good career but did not have the talent to excel to the very top i.e., play champions league and be in the mix, play for a top European side. I would never question his effort. We have international rugby players who fit that bill too just not Brian O'Driscoll. BOD was the best at his peak. He was world class. He could have played for any side with his talents and work rate. You can't compare them in that regard. The point of the less competition doesn't apply the cream always rises, it's all relative. There are more soccer players but there are also more professional 'top clubs' in proportion to that. Success requires the best talent and the hardest work at the same time. Diminish either and the success diminishes proportionally.

Its only NZ and Wales where it is the overwhelming dominant sport but it is very close in France, Ireland, Australia and South Africa. The game is still new to the professional era, this has pushed it on and in twenty years' time who knows……

To all, this forum is regarding Hunt's ham fisted attempt to say not everyone can deal with the pressures placed on a highly paid athlete by saying the GAA lads wouldn't be able to rest up with all the distractions he has. He got it wrong and was better off to keep his trap shut. The truth is it will come down to each individual. Every time. I refer back to George Best, if he had Stephen Hunt's discipline who knows what he would have done.

Your welcome.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 03/12/2014 20:16:38    1676457

03/12/2014 19:35:30
fabio8
14 to play at the top level in soccer lol?...name 1 player who has managed it?....john hayes started playing the sport at 19 and become a regular selection for ireland for over a decade...toner is a pro player and international purely on size alone Your comment on Toner is laughable. How he is at the level he's at simply due to size. Please try explain that?
03/12/2014 19:41:02 fabio8
youve got the wrong team on bean greengrass..its oakland As was his team and what he achieved was remarkable considering what he was up against....the demands of our rugby team are nothing close to what our soccer team has to achieve..in rugby they play the same limited number of teams every year....look at how many good teams there is in europe alone in soccer never mind the world....it is much harder to achieve anything in soccer...a lot of sports nowadays is becoming more and more maths dominated...you are ignoring stats cause it suits your own viewpoint to do so...stats are hugely prominent in various leagues with the nba and mlb being most prominent..what has our rugby team produced just yet anyway?..we beat a side in less impressive fashion that england beat at the weekend and south africa were also recently beaten...you are ignoring the other side of the argument and dismissing it to suit your own viewpoint..maths is effective as it removes all bias which is clearly being displayed on this forum They play the same countries because of €€€ to some extent.
You are also ignoring the other side of the argument and dismissing it to suit your own argument. Maths isn't effective as all figures can be twisted to suit an argument

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:17:55    1676458

I didn't read the rest of your post Fabio. If sport was all about maths it wouldn't be anything like the compulsive attraction it is. Sport is about much more than that. The central core of sport is about human striving againsthuman, team striving against team. All the characteristics of people manifest themselves n sport. It is not maths that wins sporting contests i. It is human strengths and failings. No amount of maths will govern that. Stats have a huge part to play in American sport . They have less of a part to play in other sports. I am well aware of the importance and influence and stats as I have been working on stats and video analysis for several years at senior inter county level.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 20:18:44    1676459

It is about levels of excellence and attaining those levels. That is not governed by mathematics and numbers . It is governed by basic principles of sport such as exceptional physical attributes, mental strength, sporting aptitude and emotional intelligence. Rugby does not have the same number of participants as soccer but there is no doubt that the levels of excellence exhibited by elite rugby players match those of soccer players. If you do not reach those levels of excellence in rugby you don't count. Same as in soccer.

I thought you were letting it go? you said that in your third last post.

All of the above is true. The above are all other variables that top sports men and woman must exhibit for most sports (not sure exceptional physical attributes are necessary for darts or pool but the others are). Excellence in all sports is excellence on its own merits and soccer excellence is compared to soccer excellence and that is it.

However, none of the above is an argument against any of the points that MesAmis or I have made.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 20:22:16    1676461

I think S Hunt comments are been taken a bit out of context. I enjoy most sports but there seems to trait among a lot of gaa people I know which is always putting down soccer. Why always the need to compare the two sports? Hunt was only saying that professional football and inter county player fitnees levels are world's apart as they should be. A study done a number of years back proved that league of Ireland players were fitter and had less boby fat than gaa players.

superos (Roscommon) - Posts: 46 - 03/12/2014 20:22:41    1676462

Fabio Connacht ( not Connaught) cannon fodder ?? Toulouse, Harlequins ????? Twelve games played, six won in the last two campaigns . Hardly cannon fodder. .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 20:23:10    1676463

None of the above are arguments against the points you have made ? I beg to differ. There you go. Now we have an argument .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 20:51:33    1676469

03/12/2014 19:59:33 fabio8
bourgoin castres 2 examples of teams who never take it seriously...clermont in the initial years didnt take it seriously at all...sending a weakened team clearly sends the message of your priorities being elsewhere..when is the last time a welsh side made the semis?..some of the groups in the heineken can be very easy and some can be difficult..exactly the same as the champions league just there is a lot more groups in the champions league and the champions league doesnt have the luxury of putting 2 teams from the same country in the 1 group...if you got an italian side and a french side who didnt take it seriously then it can turn into a very easy group which has happened on numerous occasions..the heineken has nowhere near the variety that the champions league provides..what have the welsh scottish and italians provided to the competition bar bonus point wins for other sides on a lot of occasions?...i accept the welsh were good for a time but they have gradually got worse and worse Haha stop bluffing
Castres "never take it seriously". How can you say that. They dont travel well, like all French sides traditionally. They've won 12% of their away games and 60% of their home games. When their Is
Bourgoin did take It seriously bar a few exceptions of a few odd games.
It has been a while since Welsh sides got to semis but Welsh non international rugby has struggled for wide variety of reasons in the whole since the turn of professionalism.
Your ignorance saying what have welsh et al done? Scottish sides Edinburgh on occasion, Glasgow on occasion made semis, but yes in the main they haven't been very strong.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:55:20    1676470

and an acknowledgement that you lost it as well! Fair play ;)

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 21:05:50    1676475

The only place I lost the argument is in your head benny. Is that another variable ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 21:28:54    1676482

Keep telling yourself that if it well help you to sleep. Good night.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 21:38:31    1676485

this is pointless...we have gotten nowhere...it seems we have drastically different views....connacht have been largely cannon fodder yes...they are irish that doesnt prevent them from being rightly called a poor team which is what they are....the facts have been made clear to those but it seems they cannot be accepted and people are very protective of their own sport...best leaving this as no point arguing with somebody who has even called himself a wind up in the past

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 21:49:51    1676488

keep talking about levels of excellence attained while continously ignoring the points actually made...again nobody has disputed anything about what these people have achieved...stop getting so upset and defensive

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 21:50:58    1676489

of course you met him ormond...i met o gara recently and he agreed with me in that soccer is harder to make it...see what i did?

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 21:54:36    1676491