03/12/2014 11:21:25 bennybunny
It seems that Stephen Hunt has toned down his comments and explained them. Fair play to him. If only Joe Brolly (who divides opinion on here-putting it mildly) could do the same about his wind-up comments regarding socccer players.

Regarding the popularity of rugby in France, this website provides some objective data. It may not be the most reliable but it seems like rugby is not as popular in France as some might think:

http://www.top-ten-10.com/sports/france-sports-interest.htm I was talking specifically about the South of France(Perpignan/Castres/Biarritz/Bayonne/Toulon/Bordeaux/Narboone) Rugby is as popular as I think.
03/12/2014 12:04:24 MesAmis
Quite right Greengrass, I'm not sure anyone has argued otherwise but when comparing the competitiveness of reaching the top in different sports it is definitely a factor.American Football has the 2nd least of big 5 sports in terms of numbers in US. Basketball and Baseball dwarf American Football but which is harder to make to the top?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 18:53:09    1676422

03/12/2014 18:48:49
MesAmis
?????
14?
Freddie Adu made his MLS debut at 14 but if it so easy, as you suggest, would there not be a lot more examples, in higher standard leagues also?Only reason there isn't as such strict rules are in place about playing before 16/17 and in relation to contracts and consent in relation to that...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 18:55:53    1676424

02/12/2014 21:34:59 fabio8
i can understand some of the bitterness soccer players may have as they are often treated very poorly compared to rugby or gaa counterparts especially considering even qualifying considering how tough it is in soccer is a huge achievement...euro 2012 is a great recent example of this..we were hammered yet our soccer players were attacked and compared to the rugby team giving new zealand a tough test...of course ignoring any sort of context....we were shut out by the all blacks the next week on a side note so people went a bit quiet Look at how rugby is treated here and by many across all forms of life, media(yes just look at eamon sweeneys bitter anti rugby articles) etc
Ireland were hammered regarding NZ, look at how Ireland were hammered regarding the 07 world cup. Eddie O Sullivan was hammered so much he has struggled to get near anything in irish rugby since leaving his post in 08

02/12/2014 21:40:48 joncarter
There are alot more footballers than hurlers around, but hurling, in my opinion anyway, is far more difficult to master.
I think modern gaelic football could be picked up quite easily, but rugby is the easiest of the three to get the hang of (and it is Ormo, before you disagree) How is rugby easiest to pick up and its Ormond. Explain exactly how it is easier to pick up? What characteristic of the sport make it easier to pick up?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:00:24    1676426

One last time bunny and MesAmis. Playing at the very highest level in your sport is not about numbers . It is about levels of excellence and attaining those levels. That is not governed by mathematics and numbers . It is governed by basic principles of sport such as exceptional physical attributes, mental strength, sporting aptitude and emotional intelligence. Rugby does not have the same number of participants as soccer but there is no doubt that the levels of excellence exhibited by elite rugby players match those of soccer players. If you do not reach those levels of excellence in rugby you don't count. Same as in soccer. You can introduce mathematical concepts but it won't alter the basic principles of sport. Our soccer team at the moment is not producing the same levels of performance excellence that our rugby team is producing. This despite the fact the number of soccer players in this country is multiples of the number of players participating in rugby. That has been true for quite a while. I believe our soccer players did outstandingly well to make Euro 2012. I thought the public denigration of those players and Giovanni Trapattoni was despicable . In the eighties and nineties the soccer teams levels of sporting excellence was above that of our rugby players. The levels of excellence in rugby at the moment are exceptionally high . To reach them and to make it to the top demands as much if not more than doing the equivalent in soccer and no amount of variables will change that.. Sport is not Maths. Maths might have helped Billy Bean but The Orioles still didn't win . Now I have said all I need to say. Good luck lads.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 19:02:08    1676428

bennybunny
It seems that Stephen Hunt has toned down his comments and explained them. Fair play to him. If only Joe Brolly (who divides opinion on here-putting it mildly) could do the same about his wind-up comments regarding socccer players.

He didn't really. I listened to the interview on Game On, and if anything, he seemed to make it worse. I was surprised, I assumed his original article was tongue-in-cheek, but it appears to have been genuine. It was all very clumsy.
I understand he was trying to address Joe Brolly's comments, and they deserved to be addressed, as they were unfair. He could have responded by focusing on how difficult it is to move to another country at a young age, and make it in a very competitive environment. That could have been the entire ripost, but the way he went on about GAA players was clumsy.
And no matter what he says about being a fan, it did feel like he was denigrating the effort put in by GAA players in that interview. At least that's how it came across. Clumsiness more than anything malicious though.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 03/12/2014 19:11:26    1676429

03/12/2014 12:36:56 MesAmis
Why do you think my argument is making out that Ali was inferior to Pele?
Why have yourself and Ormond brought in this whole notion of inferiority into the argument. I genuinely don't understand it.
The Champions is a competition taking clubs from all over Europe, up to 50 something nations are represented.
The Rugby Cup is representing clubs from 4 countries. There is no depth whatsoever to it when compared with the Champions League. There is no comparison between the two competitions. Could you imagine how uncompetitive the Rugby Cup would be if they, like the Champions League, took clubs from all over Europe? It'd be a joke of a competition.
The line in italics above is interesting - rugby cannot be compared with soccer on a basis of competitive depth. Rugby just doesn't have the numbers in anyway. That's all I'm saying. In soccer to get to the top you've to be better than, and beat, a lot more people than you do in rugby. That's all I'm saying. Inferiority came into the argument because of what you implied in earlier posts.
Name the 4 countries in the rugby? There is more than that.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:11:44    1676430

03/12/2014 13:07:49 Greengrass
Nonsense. At the elite level rugby is every bit as competitive if not more so than soccer and elite rugby players achieve the same level of sporting excellence that elite soccer players achieve. It is you with your simplistic assertions based on the numbers argument who misses the point. The Champuons League takes in teams from every country in Europe but the vast bulk of them are dross compared to the elite teams. The Champions League only gets competitive at the knockout stages. As a competition The Heineken Cup was far superior +1
03/12/2014 13:31:48 MesAmis
But soccer has so much than just the top level, that's the point. And to get to that top level in rugby you don't have as much to negotiate as you do in soccer.
The Champions League is very competitive, and that competition starts in the Preliminary rounds in June/July. The rugby cup may be competitive, and no one has said otherwise, but when club rugby as a whole is looked at, it is a very shallow pool of competitiveness in comparison to soccer.
For example; to get into the group stages of the Champions League, Dundalk will have to go through 3 qualifying rounds having already won their domestic league last year.
Munster or Leinster qualify for the rugby cup through their domestic league (they don't have to actually win anything the thing just finish high enough up afaik) and go straight into the group stages.
Dundalk's route is harder in many ways because Ireland's domestic league is so low down but it shows that no league is just guaranteed access unless it is backed by performances. It is unlike rugby in that you get places in the big cup just because you happen to be one of the few countries to take it seriously. Everyone has a go in soccer whereas only some do in rugby. Don't be a hypocrite. You say soccer has so much more than the top level but so does rugby. Their was the provision for other nations to compete in European competition if they desired but the desire to compete wasn't there. they could have
In rugby you get a place in Europe backed by performance and saying they don't shows clear flaws in your argument
Sides from countries outside 6 nations can enter the Heineken(champions) and challenge cups but choose not to. Their has been places set for them and now their will be a new 3rd tier competition like their had been years ago when their was the parker pen cup and shield

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:25:29    1676432

14 to play at the top level in soccer lol?...name 1 player who has managed it?....john hayes started playing the sport at 19 and become a regular selection for ireland for over a decade...toner is a pro player and international purely on size alone

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:35:30    1676434

03/12/2014 14:14:53 fabio8
thats because there is only a few teams playing in it greengrass...the champions league has far more depth to it than the heineiken..sure look at the italian teams in the heineken cup how many games have they won?...and look at the amount of french sides over the years who send out weak teams in it as they dont take it that seriously..the heneiken cup cant be compared to the champions league seeing as the depth and competitiveness is on a totally different level..teams in ireland barely have to do anything to qualify for it...look at the competition involved in qualifying for the champions league in every league in europe The variability in scoring rugby means draws are much more uncommon so its hard to compare to soccer in that way
French teams not putting out stronger sides isn't them not taking the competition seriously its just the nature of French rugby. French sides do the same in the top 14. All the top French division sides regularly don't try as much in away games
Would you say they don't take the French league seriously?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:39:32    1676436

youve got the wrong team on bean greengrass..its oakland As was his team and what he achieved was remarkable considering what he was up against....the demands of our rugby team are nothing close to what our soccer team has to achieve..in rugby they play the same limited number of teams every year....look at how many good teams there is in europe alone in soccer never mind the world....it is much harder to achieve anything in soccer...a lot of sports nowadays is becoming more and more maths dominated...you are ignoring stats cause it suits your own viewpoint to do so...stats are hugely prominent in various leagues with the nba and mlb being most prominent..what has our rugby team produced just yet anyway?..we beat a side in less impressive fashion that england beat at the weekend and south africa were also recently beaten...you are ignoring the other side of the argument and dismissing it to suit your own viewpoint..maths is effective as it removes all bias which is clearly being displayed on this forum

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:41:02    1676437

the champions league is a much superior competition to the heneiken cup...you continously ignore the displays of connaught and the italian teams which have been cannon fodder for years just like the welsh and scottish sides for the most part...plus who could forget some french teams not even bothering...stop ignoring stuff to suit your own viewpoint as it makes your argument very flawed...there is numerous instances where there have been competitive groups in the champions league...it has never been retained the champions league which is a true example of how difficult and competitive competition it truly is...the heneiken cup was so good that it had to be changed?..clearly something was very flawed and wrong

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:44:49    1676438

making an nba roster would be much more difficult than american football as look at the amount of spots available plus the huge international element...american football is more cuthroat from a money stand point but to make an nba roster would be much more difficult and the same applies for mlb which is notoriously tough

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:46:17    1676439

greengrass you should know at this stage that being on the same side as ormond in an argument is never a good thing!!

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:47:51    1676440

03/12/2014 14:16:21 fabio8
if it was a stroll in the park than man city wouldnt be constantly struggling..sure some groups are a stroll but not all...look at liverpool who will probably not make it..both of those clubs are from what one would consider one of the elite leagues....there is no depth in the heneiken cup and only a few teams from the top league in france take it seriously Which French sides in recent years havent taking it seriously?
Id there was no depth in the Heineken Cup then why is the competition so difficult to qualify from etc?
03/12/2014 14:32:47 fabio8
bourgoin for years are a good example...clermont for a few years didnt take it seriously and would send poor sides for their away matches..toulouse clermont and toulon in recent years have always taken it very seriously but numerous other french sides havent...castres another example who often would send weak teams to play awayWhen did Clermont not take the competition seriously?
Clermont and all French sides always have done that(sent weakened sides to away games) in the French league
Sending a weakened side to an away game isn't them not taking the competition seriously as they do it in the French league all the time
03/12/2014 14:35:11 fabio8
how many different nations have won the heneiken in recent years benjyy?...the champions league involves a variety of countries at a competitive level..the henineken simply doesnt..how many games have the italians ever won?..and the scots and welsh have contributed very little How exactly does the Heineken cup not involve a variety of countries at a different level?
How have the welsh contributed little? Semi finals, quarters, a final. What makes their contribution be defined as little?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:48:35    1676441

03/12/2014 14:48:14
benjyyy
You are mixing up taking it seriously with doing the best with their resources. The French teams have often written off away games and sent weakened teams to keep their best players fresh for their home games. Thats not the same. They still always intended on qualifying It is but do people understand that???
03/12/2014 14:48:48 Greengrass
No one is arguing that more people play soccer. What is being said is that it is no less difficult to play at he elite level in sports like rugby, basketball, cricket, golf, tennis and boxing than it is in soccer. Numbers playing is not the arbiter of sporting excellence. There may be more playing but the elite players in soccer do not exhibit any greater levels of sporting excellence than do the elite players in the sports I have mentioned. That is the point I am making. It is no easier to be a top rugby player than it is to be a top soccer player. As for The Champions League it is structured so as to smooth the passage of the elite teams to the knockout stages. There are nowhere near as many teams in rugby however there are as many elite teams and the competition is every bit as strong at that level. Why wont people understand that???

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:51:34    1676443

03/12/2014 19:35:30
fabio8
14 to play at the top level in soccer lol?...name 1 player who has managed it?....john hayes started playing the sport at 19 and become a regular selection for ireland for over a decade...toner is a pro player and international purely on size alone John Hayes was a 6'4 uniquely talented guy. He virtually immediately joined the best team in the country and was getting coached by the best coaches at the time. The same could easily happen in any number of sports and have.
Just look at several Olympians who have recently started a sport and made it to the Olympics.
Your comment on toner is laughable. If size was as much of an arbiter as you are implying then any 6'10 guy who played rugby and showed any bit of talent would be playing pro
Toner if he was 6'5/6 would still be a pro player and possibly an international

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 19:56:27    1676444

bourgoin castres 2 examples of teams who never take it seriously...clermont in the initial years didnt take it seriously at all...sending a weakened team clearly sends the message of your priorities being elsewhere..when is the last time a welsh side made the semis?..some of the groups in the heineken can be very easy and some can be difficult..exactly the same as the champions league just there is a lot more groups in the champions league and the champions league doesnt have the luxury of putting 2 teams from the same country in the 1 group...if you got an italian side and a french side who didnt take it seriously then it can turn into a very easy group which has happened on numerous occasions..the heineken has nowhere near the variety that the champions league provides..what have the welsh scottish and italians provided to the competition bar bonus point wins for other sides on a lot of occasions?...i accept the welsh were good for a time but they have gradually got worse and worse

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 19:59:33    1676446

03/12/2014 14:53:17 fabio8
spare me benjyy..they send weakened teams to focus on the league as that is their priority....the heneiken plays second fiddle to them..that is not taking the competition seriously....if a team sent a weakened side in the champions league they would be rightly called out for conceding defeat...that is simply not the case greengrass..it is much tougher to become a top soccer player than a top rugby player...look at hayes started at 19 now has how many caps for ireland?...or toner?...this simply doesnt happen in soccer as there is so many levelsEuropean cups dont play second fiddle. Its away games that are completely second fiddle to home games
Why bring in Toner to this? He played in club and school underage, played all through with Leinster and Irish underage. He made Leinster academy
Hayes was a very unique situation

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:00:10    1676447

03/12/2014 15:44:24 Greengrass
Fabio Liverpool are also rans . They have been burned off and are not operating at the elite level. Porto are the same. The Champions League group stages are a bore fest. There is very little competition for places in the next round. Already with one round left 10 of the 16 places are decided. It is the same every year. The Heineken Cup had the elite teams taking lumps out of each other from the very start. Yes there are more very good teams in soccer. good point

03/12/2014 15:44:24 Greengrass
No one denies that but the standards of sporting excellence exhibited by the elite teams n rugby are no lower than those standards of sporting excellence exhibited by the elite players and the elite teams in soccer. Thankfully those of you who may have been under the illusion that Stephen Hunt may have been operating at the same level as Brian O Driscoll have been divested of that. I do not say that to be derogatory of Stephen Hunt or his very fine achievements. This talk about depth in The Champions League ignores the fact that there is a vast gulf between the many also rans and the few elite teams. Like I said there are as many competitive elite teams in The Champions Cup as there are in The Champions League. It is no less difficult to be an elite player in other sports as it is to be in soccer. +1

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 20:01:40    1676448

well then why ormond did leinster run a special thing looking for lads over a certain size to try out for them?..in soccer an idea like this would be laughable..or any sport for that matter which requires a certain degree of skill...the guy sweeney isnt anti rugby he just rightly slags off the snobbery element in the sport..that doesnt make him anti rugby..the hayes situation shows how easy it can be to make it relative to soccer.....your 14 year old comment is laughable and shows 0 knowledge of the sport

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 20:03:04    1676449