fabio8
County: USA
Posts: 1015

1676313
bourgoin for years are a good example...clermont for a few years didnt take it seriously and would send poor sides for their away matches..toulouse clermont and toulon in recent years have always taken it very seriously but numerous other french sides havent...castres another example who often would send weak teams to play away
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You are mixing up taking it seriously with doing the best with their resources. The French teams have often written off away games and sent weakened teams to keep their best players fresh for their home games. Thats not the same. They still always intended on qualifying

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 03/12/2014 14:48:14    1676321

No one is arguing that more people play soccer . What is being said is that it is no less difficult to play at he elite level in sports like rugby , basketball, cricket, golf, tennis and boxing than it is in soccer . Numbers playing is not the arbiter of sporting excellence . There may be more playing but the elite players in soccer do not exhibit any greater levels of sporting excellence than do the elite players in the sports I have mentioned . That is the point I am making . It is no easier to be a top rugby player than it is to be a top soccer player . As for The Champions League it is structured so as to smooth the passage of the elite teams to the knockout stages . There are nowhere near as many teams in rugby however there are as many elite teams and the competition is every bit as strong at that level.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 14:48:48    1676322

spare me benjyy..they send weakened teams to focus on the league as that is their priority....the heneiken plays second fiddle to them..that is not taking the competition seriously....if a team sent a weakened side in the champions league they would be rightly called out for conceding defeat...that is simply not the case greengrass..it is much tougher to become a top soccer player than a top rugby player...look at hayes started at 19 now has how many caps for ireland?...or toner?...this simply doesnt happen in soccer as there is so many levels

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 14:53:17    1676325

fabio8
County: USA
Posts: 1016

1676315
how many different nations have won the heneiken in recent years benjyy?...the champions league involves a variety of countries at a competitive level..the henineken simply doesnt..how many games have the italians ever won?..and the scots and welsh have contributed very little

Competitive would be making a semi-final appearance every now and then. I wouldn't call it competitive. Competitive among the 5 or 6 best teams from Spain, England and Germany, yes, but as an overall competition? No.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 03/12/2014 14:53:43    1676327

fabio. What you are not taking account of is the grater likelihood of injuries in rugby. Why play your best team and risk long-term injuries when it is not necessary to qualify?

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 03/12/2014 15:06:56    1676337

There may be more playing but the elite players in soccer do not exhibit any greater levels of sporting excellence than do the elite players in the sports I have mentioned . That is the point I am making .


It is no easier to be a top rugby player than it is to be a top soccer player

Separate points. The first point is true. Comparing excellence is futile. They are excellent on their own merit or not at all. Brian O'Driscoll is excellent. Nobody denies it.

The second sentence is not the same thing though. Increased competition does make it harder in some sports over others. There are very few Tiddlywinks players. If I give 10,000 hours to it - I will be excellent at it and there is strong chance that I will be among the best in the world. If I give 10,000 hours to soccer, I will also be excellent at it. However, many thousands of others will do the same due to its popularity. This (keeping other variables constant) reduces the possibility that I will get the chance to play at the top level.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 15:30:40    1676348

exactly bennybunny and thats all people have been saying...its just simple logic..nothing more

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 15:37:44    1676352

Fabio Liverpool are also rans . They have been burned off and are not operating at the elite level. Porto are the same. The Champions League group stages are a bore fest. There is very little competition for places in the next round. Already with one round left 10 of the 16 places are decided. It is the same every year. The Heineken Cup had the elite teams taking lumps out of each other from the very start. Yes there are more very good teams in soccer. No one denies that but the standards of sporting excellence exhibited by the elite teams n rugby are no lower than those standards of sporting excellence exhibited by the elite players and the elite teams in soccer. Thankfully those of you who may have been under the illusion that Stephen Hunt may have been operating at the same level as Brian O Driscoll have been divested of that. I do not say that to be derogatory of Stephen Hunt or his very fine achievements. This talk about depth in The Champions League ignores the fact that there is a vast gulf between the many also rans and the few elite teams. Like I said there are as many competitive elite teams in The Champions Cup as there are in The Champions League. It is no less difficult to be an elite player in other sports as it is to be in soccer.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 15:44:24    1676355

No it doesn't Benny. The more competitions there are the more avenues there and the more chances there are to get to the top. Tiddlywinks ???? Wise up.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 15:46:32    1676356

Fabio, it was contended that Stephen Hunt was operating at the same level as Brian O Driscoll. He isn't . He was never nor will he be anywhere near the levels if Brian O Driscoll. Benny there are more soccer players than any other sport in the world. By your line of reasoning that fact and that fact alone means that it was easier for Muhammad Ali, Roger Federer, Michael Jordan, Richie Mc Caw, Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, Henry Shefflin, and Brian Lara to get to the pinnacle of their sports and to play at the levels they played at than it was for Messi and Ronaldo. You provide no evidence for that assertion other than a bland sweeping statement about the numbers playing soccer being greater than the numbers playing any other sport. Sorry boys but you exhibit no understanding of the concept of and the requirements of sporting excellence. Your argument is one dimensional, simplistic and to use two adjectives beloved of MesAmis shallow and lackng in depth.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 15:59:02    1676359

What criteria should you use to compare the level of difficulty to get to the top level in their respective sports? Basing it on the numbers playing the sport worldwide isn't a sound one. There are millions 'playing soccer' in the US, but I've seen kickabouts in New Mexico and the standard is appalling. The MLS standard isn't much better. Way less people play rugby in New Zealand than soccer in US but the standard is extremely high if you could compare them.

The original post was about GAA commitment. Depending on hurling or football and the area you're in the commitment levels vary. I don't think there's an objective way to compare commitment accross sports. Maybe, rather than claim one sport is better than another we could find common ground among them to compare and contrast. Are there Opta stats for GAA and Rugby like there are in Soccer?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7346 - 03/12/2014 16:27:33    1676370

Is this thread still going on?It would cure insomnia lads.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 03/12/2014 16:46:23    1676376

it seems like none of us are going to agree but lot of you are missing the context...nobody is disputing the achievements of bod...dont think anybody could...overall it appears like hunt considering he is a gaa fan went a bit overboard in his column and used a poor choice of words more than anything as i doubt anybody can question the committment of gaa players but at least greengrass we have found some sort of agreement in that his view may be tinged by the fact that our soccer players are often treated very poorly when things dont work out well compared to their counterparts in other sports

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 16:56:04    1676378

Greengrass Benny there are more soccer players than any other sport in the world. By your line of reasoning that fact and that fact alone means that it was easier for Muhammad Ali, Roger Federer, Michael Jordan, Richie Mc Caw, Tiger Woods, Tom Brady, Henry Shefflin, and Brian Lara to get to the pinnacle of their sports and to play at the levels they played at than it was for Messi and Ronaldo.

Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly stated in my last post that there are many variables. You either deliberately ignored that bit or innocently missed it. Only you know.

When doing any form of research, to analyse the affect of one independent variable on a dependent variable (this case - becoming an elite sportsman) you must hold all other independent variables constant to truly see the affect.

To restate in simple terms; holding all other variables constants (such as the discrimination that people like Muhammed Ali faced growing up as an African American in Kentucky under Jim Crow laws) , it is my contention that level of competition does affect (as one of many variables) the probability of rising to the top. It is my contention that the greater the number of people, the reduced probability of getting to the top. That is it. Nothing else. I am in no way denigrating the achievement of any player in any sport so there is no need to be defensive with me. I admire all top sports people in all sports (even if I do not like the sport).

Instead of putting words in my mouth, you either believe that playing numbers has no effect at all in getting to the top (for this to be true getting to the top of tiddlywinks is easy as getting to the top in soccer) or there is a negative relationship between the variables - ie the more competitors the easier it is in getting to the top.

Yes, the point is simplistic. Why complicate things?

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 17:08:04    1676383

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3389

1676359
Fabio, it was contended that Stephen Hunt was operating at the same level as Brian O Driscoll.

No it wasn't.

It was contended that Stephen's Hunt's achievements, when everything was put into comntext, actually ecilpse those of O'Driscoll's.

O'Driscoll excelled at a sport that a lot in Ireland can't play as there is no club near them/can't get into the right school. O'Driscoll was ahead of most people straight away in fairness because he was born to it.

Not so with Hunt. He started at the bottom with a lot more of us!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 17:14:10    1676386

Great point bennybunny.

The more competition, the more difficult it'll be to get to the top. The more competition, the more likely it'll be that more people will be better than you. Rugby does not have that in comparison to soccer.

When someone starts playing rugby as a child, there are a lot less people between them and the green jersey then there is between the child who starts to play soccer and the green jersey.

Simple and concise point that most can fathom!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 17:19:05    1676388

Benny, in every sport everyone starts at the bottom. The levels of excellence achieved in the sport is down to the individual concerned . Numbers participating are not a factor in the levels of excellence achieved . From that point of view Brian O Driscoll's achievements are significantly superior to Stephen Hunt's. Again I say this not to denigrate Stephen Hunt. I agree entirely that our soccer players achievements are unjustly denigrated principally by our soccer correspondents whose work is generally very poor. . I admire what Stephen Hunt has achieved . I think this debate has run it's course lads. We have all outlined our opinions. It's time to move on.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 18:22:13    1676406

02/12/2014 21:24:30 fabio8
it is a huge factor to consider though greengrass...if you play a lot more games of course it is going to be more demanding than being asked to play less games..yes i have played rugby..if you are a front 5 obviously you are going to be nowhere near as athletic as your average soccer player...greengrass is right in your opinion ormond as it suits your own viewpoint.....rugby is less difficult to make it to the top in than soccer is..that is simply a fact and stating the obvious...and all that was stated..nothing more..so no need for people to be getting all that upset Are the likes of Paul O Connell(any second row), Rory Best/Cian Healy(any front row) really nowhere near as athletic as your average soccer player?
How are they not?
Rugby is as difficult due to the physical nature of the sport. You could as easily play at the top of the game at 14 in soccer, which is not possible at all in rugby. that's part of reason why its as difficult - the physical constraints of the sport
The physical differences between positions make it so much more difficult.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 18:40:37    1676414

03/12/2014 09:58:30 witnof
By no account would I be a fan of soccer or Hunt but the achievement to get to the level he has in a very very very competitive world, both mentally and physically should not be looked down upon.
His achievements, even if he is not a top Premier League player would, actually be, in context, better than an Irish Rugby players, even BOD, when you consider the numbers and the difference in competition.
Ormond before you sound off, even in the south-west of France more people play soccer, handball, basketball etc. even if the culture is rugby. I live here so I know this, everyone supports the rugby team, its pride of the village stuff, even if you play other sports.
Hunt is a bit of a fool in the way he presented his argument about Professional sports. His point was that to handle the off-time is harder than the training and you need to be mentally tough, and therefore it is not the most skill full that always succeed, and he is proof.
Why a GAA player cannot do this is beyond me, so his point is silly. His point should have been that not all the most skill Inter-County players may make the grade in Pros sports as the 'life style' outside the game is the hardest to manage. I have never looked down on anyone making it to pro level in soccer. Making it to the premiership cannot be compared or even said in context to be better than a rugby player simply because the sport is bigger. O Driscoll was at the very pinnacle of his sport. Top of the game for many years
Lots do play the other sports. Ive spent many weeks/months living in south eastern france and I do know of the context in sport down there.

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/12/2014 18:46:45    1676416

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 8867


You could as easily play at the top of the game at 14 in soccer.

?????

14?

Freddie Adu made his MLS debut at 14 but if it so easy, as you suggest, would there not be a lot more examples, in higher standard leagues also?

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 18:48:49    1676418