It seems that Stephen Hunt has toned down his comments and explained them. Fair play to him. If only Joe Brolly (who divides opinion on here-putting it mildly) could do the same about his wind-up comments regarding socccer players.

Regarding the popularity of rugby in France, this website provides some objective data. It may not be the most reliable but it seems like rugby is not as popular in France as some might think:

http://www.top-ten-10.com/sports/france-sports-interest.htm

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 11:21:25    1676229

Like I said before, numbers playing the game is not the ultimate arbiter of sporting excellence and how sporting excellence is achieved .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 11:49:00    1676240

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3382

1676240
Like I said before, numbers playing the game is not the ultimate arbiter of sporting excellence and how sporting excellence is achieved .

Quite right Greengrass, I'm not sure anyone has argued otherwise but when comparing the competitiveness of reaching the top in different sports it is definitely a factor.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 12:04:24    1676245

No it's not . There are more teams in The Champions League than there were in The Heineken Cup. No one in their right mind would argue that The Champions League group stages are anywhere near as competitive as The Heineken Cup group stages were. The elite teams are in The Heineken Cup and are made fight for their places . The bigger numbers in The Champions League group stages only ensures more opportunity for those not operating at the elite level to partake. Numbers don't ensure excellence . 10 of the 16 Champions League qualifying places are decided with one round of games left . Like rugby there are only a small number of elite teams and elite players in soccer.Small numbers in a sport does not dilute the competitiveness or sporting excellence at elite level . The competitiveness at the elite level of rugby is no less than the competitiveness at the elite level of soccer . The numbers argument is simplistic and doesn't stand up to scrutiny . Was Muhammad Ali inferior to Pele ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 12:26:55    1676256

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3383

1676256
No it's not . There are more teams in The Champions League than there were in The Heineken Cup. No one in their right mind would argue that The Champions League group stages are anywhere near as competitive as The Heineken Cup group stages were. The elite teams are in The Heineken Cup and are made fight for their places . The bigger numbers in The Champions League group stages only ensures more opportunity for those not operating at the elite level to partake. Numbers don't ensure excellence . 10 of the 16 Champions League qualifying places are decided with one round of games left . Like rugby there are only a small number of elite teams and elite players in soccer.Small numbers in a sport does not dilute the competitiveness or sporting excellence at elite level . The competitiveness at the elite level of rugby is no less than the competitiveness at the elite level of soccer . The numbers argument is simplistic and doesn't stand up to scrutiny . Was Muhammad Ali inferior to Pele ?

Why do you think my argument is making out that Ali was inferior to Pele?

Why have yourself and Ormond brought in this whole notion of inferiority into the argument. I genuinely don't understand it.

The Champions is a competition taking clubs from all over Europe, up to 50 something nations are represented.

The Rugby Cup is representing clubs from 4 countries. There is no depth whatsoever to it when compared with the Champions League. There is no comparison between the two competitions. Could you imagine how uncompetitive the Rugby Cup would be if they, like the Champions League, took clubs from all over Europe? It'd be a joke of a competition.

The line in italics above is interesting - rugby cannot be compared with soccer on a basis of competitive depth. Rugby just doesn't have the numbers in anyway. That's all I'm saying. In soccer to get to the top you've to be better than, and beat, a lot more people than you do in rugby. That's all I'm saying.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 12:36:56    1676258

Nonsense . At the elite level rugby is every bit as competitive if not more so than soccer and elite rugby players achieve the same level of sporting excellence that elite soccer players achieve . It is you with your simplistic assertions based on the numbers argument who misses the point . The Champuons League takes in teams from every country in Europe but the vast bulk of them are dross compared to the elite teams . The Champions League only gets competitive at the knockout stages . As a competition The Heineken Cup was far superior .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 13:07:49    1676268

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3384

1676268
Nonsense . At the elite level rugby is every bit as competitive if not more so than soccer and elite rugby players achieve the same level of sporting excellence that elite soccer players achieve . It is you with your simplistic assertions based on the numbers argument who misses the point . The Champuons League takes in teams from every country in Europe but the vast bulk of them are dross compared to the elite teams . The Champions League only gets competitive at the knockout stages . As a competition The Heineken Cup was far superior .

But soccer has so much than just the top level, that's the point. And to get to that top level in rugby you don't have as much to negotiate as you do in soccer.

The Champions League is very competitive, and that competition starts in the Preliminary rounds in June/July. The rugby cup may be competitive, and no one has said otherwise, but when club rugby as a whole is looked at, it is a very shallow pool of competitiveness in comparison to soccer.

For example; to get into the group stages of the Champions League, Dundalk will have to go through 3 qualifying rounds having already won their domestic league last year.

Munster or Leinster qualify for the rugby cup through their domestic league (they don't have to actually win anything the thing just finish high enough up afaik) and go straight into the group stages.

Dundalk's route is harder in many ways because Ireland's domestic league is so low down but it shows that no league is just guaranteed access unless it is backed by performances. It is unlike rugby in that you get places in the big cup just because you happen to be one of the few countries to take it seriously. Everyone has a go in soccer whereas only some do in rugby.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 13:31:48    1676274

No one is saying that rugby players are not a dedicated, talented or competitive or worthy of praise.

Just that soccer players have more people trying to get to the top against them than rugby players do.

Deny it if you will but it is true.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 13:36:09    1676277

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3384

1676268 Nonsense . At the elite level rugby is every bit as competitive if not more so than soccer and elite rugby players achieve the same level of sporting excellence that elite soccer players achieve .

It is you with your simplistic assertions based on the numbers argument who misses the point .

1.The Champuons League takes in teams from every country in Europe but the vast bulk of them are dross compared to the elite teams .

The Champions League only gets competitive at the knockout stages . As a competition The Heineken Cup was far superior . Yes - they are dross compared to the elite. The elite are the elite of thousands of professional teams. There are 6 or 7 teams that are vastly superior to all the rest. The 20th best team in Europe could be some team like FC Porto (former winners - champions of Portugal who produce players like Ronaldo, Eusebio, Figo et al) - the fact that they are 20th (or so) best is testament to how difficult it is to become elite. I think you are finally begininng to see Mes Amis point. You are making it for him now. Well done.

As far the Heineken cup being superior. This is not an objective statement. Rugby fans most certianly would agree. Soccer fans would disagree. Neutrals would differ. All we can say that the numbers watching the champions league dwarfs the Heinken Cup. They must know that the Heinken Cup is better.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/12/2014 13:38:18    1676278

Bennybunny

Cheers man.

Greengrass and Ormond are taking it as a slight on rugby when it is not.

It is simply the truth that soccer has more depth to it than rugby in terms of competition.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 13:42:06    1676281

MesAmis
County: Dublin
Posts: 8040

1676281 Bennybunny

Cheers man.

Greengrass and Ormond are taking it as a slight on rugby when it is not.

It is simply the truth that soccer has more depth to it than rugby in terms of competition.

http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/bigcount/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

So there are 256 million playing soccer worldwide according to Fifa, and 4.5 million playing rugby. No doubting at all that there is far more depth in soccer.

I would agrue that this does make it easier to become a top rugby player. It's only logical that more people partaking in one sport = greater number of talented individuals in that sport = harder to break into the top 5/10/20 (whatever number) of players. There's also more chance of being missed out and not picked up due to the huge amounts of players involved in soccer.

kinglarsson (Down) - Posts: 88 - 03/12/2014 13:58:42    1676287

Benny, I am a neutral . I have been to finals in both . The Champions Keague as currently structured is a joke and qualification for the knockout stages is a stroll in the park for the elite teams . That was never the case in The Heineken Cup . My first sports are Gaelic Games .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 03/12/2014 14:01:42    1676288

thats because there is only a few teams playing in it greengrass...the champions league has far more depth to it than the heineiken..sure look at the italian teams in the heineken cup how many games have they won?...and look at the amount of french sides over the years who send out weak teams in it as they dont take it that seriously..the heneiken cup cant be compared to the champions league seeing as the depth and competitiveness is on a totally different level..teams in ireland barely have to do anything to qualify for it...look at the competition involved in qualifying for the champions league in every league in europe

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 14:14:53    1676294

if it was a stroll in the park than man city wouldnt be constantly struggling..sure some groups are a stroll but not all...look at liverpool who will probably not make it..both of those clubs are from what one would consider one of the elite leagues....there is no depth in the heneiken cup and only a few teams from the top league in france take it seriously

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 14:16:21    1676295

kinglarsson
County: Down
Posts: 56

Good post.

I didn't think the numbers playing rugby were quite that low but it shows exactly what I'm talking about.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 03/12/2014 14:19:42    1676300

"The Champions is a competition taking clubs from all over Europe, up to 50 something nations are represented.

The Rugby Cup is representing clubs from 4 countries. There is no depth whatsoever to it when compared with the Champions League. There is no comparison between the two competitions. Could you imagine how uncompetitive the Rugby Cup would be if they, like the Champions League, took clubs from all over Europe? It'd be a joke of a competition."

In the last 20 years only teams from 5 different countries have won the Champion's league. Spain, Italy, England, Germany and Portugal (a one-off by Porto under Mourinho). In addition, only 6 countries are represented by the losing finalists in 20 years. The first 4 above plus Holland and France (1 appearance each). So to talk about 50 nations being represented is a bit misleading.

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 03/12/2014 14:20:53    1676301

fabio8
County: USA
Posts: 1012

1676294
thats because there is only a few teams playing in it greengrass...the champions league has far more depth to it than the heineiken..sure look at the italian teams in the heineken cup how many games have they won?...and look at the amount of french sides over the years who send out weak teams in it as they dont take it that seriously..the heneiken cup cant be compared to the champions league seeing as the depth and competitiveness is on a totally different level..teams in ireland barely have to do anything to qualify for it...look at the competition involved in qualifying for the champions league in every league in europe
_________________________________________________________________________

Can you name an example of a French team not taking the competition seriously?

benjyyy (Donegal) - Posts: 1422 - 03/12/2014 14:22:29    1676305

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3385

1676288 Benny, 1. I am a neutral .
2.I have been to finals in both .
3. The Champions Keague as currently structured is a joke and qualification for the knockout stages is a stroll in the park for the elite teams .
4.That was never the case in The Heineken Cup .
5. My first sports are Gaelic Games . [/I]

1. Me too.
2. I have been to a Heineken Cup final once. I went to a champions league group game once.
3. It is a stroll in the park for the very elite teams perhaps but that is a measure of how good there.
4. I'll take your word for it. I only take a passing interest in group stages of both competitions.
5. Me too.

bourgoin for years are a good example...clermont for a few years didnt take it seriously and would send poor sides for their away matches..toulouse clermont and toulon in recent years have always taken it very seriously but numerous other french sides havent...castres another example who often would send weak teams to play away

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 14:32:47    1676313

how many different nations have won the heneiken in recent years benjyy?...the champions league involves a variety of countries at a competitive level..the henineken simply doesnt..how many games have the italians ever won?..and the scots and welsh have contributed very little

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 14:35:11    1676315