bluffing?..of course you arent going to travel well if you put out a weak side...clermont toulon and toulouse dont travel too badly as they actually try to win games and put out good sides

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 03/12/2014 21:56:19    1676492

If Brian O'Driscoll had been brought up in the inner city than you would never have heard of him Ormond.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 08:14:39    1676496

seanfinn
County: Monaghan
Posts: 63


Its only NZ and Wales where it is the overwhelming dominant sport but it is very close in France, Ireland, Australia and South Africa. The game is still new to the professional era, this has pushed it on and in twenty years' time who knows……

I'd very much question how close it is to dominance in France, Australia and South Africa. Remember white South Africa is not the real South Africa! In Oz it is behind Rules, League, cricket and possibly soccer at this stage.

In Ireland it is probably the fourth sport, third at a push and in france it is a long way behind soccer, and possibly even the likes of tennis and athletics.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 08:18:17    1676498

seanfinn
County: Monaghan
Posts: 63

You're point about relative size meaning more professional opportunities is at least a decent attempt at looking at the issue.

However given the massive difference in player numbers, and don't forget the numbers are staggeringly big in difference, the point about the shallow pool of talent and the deeper pool in soccer. Given the sheer size of player numbers in soccer, the top rank of clubs is still relatively tiny and so so difficult to make it to.

Again no one is belittling the rugby players achievements, we're just looking at them in context. We are one of the very few nations that takes rugby in any way seriously, we should always have top class players in a rugby context. In rugby we are always going to be in the top 10 in the world because we are in the 10 countries that actually plays the thing seriously!

We are among the many many nations that take soccer seriously but we are going to find it very difficult to get to the top.

The Irish rugby team and soccer team cannot be compared. Simply because the soccer lads are operating in a much more competitive arena in a world sport whereas the rugby lads are not.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 08:25:50    1676499

Don't be a hypocrite. You say soccer has so much more than the top level but so does rugby. Their was the provision for other nations to compete in European competition if they desired but the desire to compete wasn't there. they could have
In rugby you get a place in Europe backed by performance and saying they don't shows clear flaws in your argument
Sides from countries outside 6 nations can enter the Heineken(champions) and challenge cups but choose not to.

Ormond

Exactly my man.

The interest isn't there in the vast majority of Europe in rugby.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 08:28:18    1676500

ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 8886


Name the 4 countries in the rugby? There is more than that.

Name the four countries in the rugby cup I presume you are asking?

Again I may be wrong but I believe the rugby cup is competed for by clubs from Ireland, UK, France and Italy. Am I wrong? Apologies if so.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 08:30:55    1676502

Patience of a saint Mes.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 04/12/2014 11:27:45    1676528

He was dead right in what he said, soccer players are miles ahead of GAA players in both skill and commitment. They don't call the GAA an amateur organisation for nothing!

Turndownforwhat (Galway) - Posts: 53 - 04/12/2014 11:34:59    1676533

Mes, the UK is not a country. How many clubs since 1996 have won The Champions League out of all the colossal number of entrants ? How many clubs out of the minuscule number of entrants have won the Heineken Cup since it's inception in 1996 ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 04/12/2014 11:44:07    1676536

This need to definitely get back on topic - Hunts comments toward GAA

He was talking about the resting being the difficult part. That sounds crazy.
I do believe GAA players need more rest but its not easy when half of them have full time jobs.

To me it was him playing up how hard his job was and belittling the dedicated GAA players in Ireland. He claims he played a bit of hurling and may have been good but he didn't play it properly at inter county level so shouldn't be commenting on it.

I mean I remember watching a documentary about Karl Lacey when he worked in Bank. He got up very early in the morning, went to the gym, then went for his 8 hour day and then travel to somewhere in Donegal for training. It would be bed time before he got home. I dont see how you can be more dedicated and still put food on the table for yourself and your family.

I think a lot of footballers would rather the rest. that's for certain.

That is in no way going against what he has accomplished and fair play to him but he shouldn't make silly statements about people and sportsmen he doesn't know.

dstuction (Donegal) - Posts: 1209 - 04/12/2014 11:57:24    1676540

This thread is hilarious. So many straw man arguments being raised.

Firstly, Mes Amis point is that it is more difficult to make it to the top at soccer than it is at rugby. His point is not that the elite level of rugby is worse than the elite level of soccer, or vice versa, or any of that. He's just saying that it's more difficult to make it to the top of soccer than it is to the top of rugby because of the number of people who are trying to make it in soccer compared to rugby.

That's not a difficult point to grasp, is it? I mean, I've never personally had the chance to play rugby because the nearest club to me growing up would have been circa 30 miles away. I played loads of soccer, because there were loads of clubs - I think there were 4 within a 5 mile radius of my house, in rural Mayo. So straight away, surely it follows that it would be easier to be the nest rugby player in my area than it would be to be the best soccer player? To quote Brian Clough, you can understand that can't you? Good lad.

Extrapolate that out and you have Mes Amis point - it was more difficult for Stephen Hunt to make it to the top as a soccer player than it was for O'Driscoll to make it to the top as a rugby player, purely from a competition-to-make-it perspective. Still pretty clear to me. Nobody has ever said that Stephen Hunt was better at soccer than BOD at rugby, because that would have been ridiculous.

I'm not sure how that ended up with someone claiming it's the equivalent of saying Hunt is better than Muhammed Ali, but brilliant, let's use this dim-witted example. The Klitschko brothers are at the top of heavyweight boxing for years now, but nobody is claiming either of them to be better than Ali. Why? Competition - Ali had loads, the current heavyweight division has none, therefore easier for the Klitschko's to dominate.

Doesn't this all make perfect logical sense? Or has logic been abandoned by those that have taken offense at this apparent slight on rugby? Seems like the lads sticking up for rugby have an inferiority complex.

Also, the lad saying it's harder to make it through the group stage of the Heineken Cup than it is to make it through the group stage of the Champions League, citing that 10 of the 16 places are decided already in the CL as proof - you are also hilarious. Would that have anything to do with the fact that the Heineken Cup essentially involves 6 groups of 4 competing for one guaranteed qualifying spot (as the 2 best runner up slots cannot really be relied on)? Whereas the CL has 2 qualifiers per group and still has 6 of the 8 second places up for grabs going into the last round of games. See that? Very easy to bend an argument as you wish.

jason (Mayo) - Posts: 139 - 04/12/2014 12:02:27    1676543

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3397

1676536
Mes, the UK is not a country

Pretty sure it is man.

Country as in sovereign state which is what I mean.

Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland aren't real countries the same as the 196/7 recognised countries in the world.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 12:29:55    1676557

if_in_doubt
County: Kildare
Posts: 2890

1676528
Patience of a saint Mes.

Ha but I don't really like Pats!! Boom boom!

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 12:31:00    1676558

How many clubs since 1996 have won The Champions League out of all the colossal number of entrants ? How many clubs out of the minuscule number of entrants have won the Heineken Cup since it's inception in 1996 ?

You tell me green grass.

Very hard to win the Champions League when you factor in all the competition ;)

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 12:32:26    1676560

Greegrass

Don't see the relevance to talking about individuals difficulty and getting to the top that your question about the spread of winners has but hey each to their own yeah.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 12:33:29    1676561

It makes perfect sense Jason but where's the fun in that?

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 04/12/2014 12:38:36    1676565

That's exactly it. A real competition for places from word go rather than a stroll in the park for the elite teams . My, my aren't you good at answering your own questions . Glad to see you have been amused . But then , little amuses the innocent .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 04/12/2014 12:40:34    1676568

jason you are talking far too much sense

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 04/12/2014 12:49:48    1676572

How did this turn into soccer vs rugby?

Anyway, I understand the thinking behind the bod-hunt comparison. But to be honest, it is overly simplistic and not fully explored. BOD is one of the best players of all time - that is his level. So the number of people he is in competition with is every person who has played rugby, ever, and everyone who ever will, not just the ones he came up against in his immediate career. Hunt is different. He played for a low level club in England. So straight away, you can rule out guys who cant get work permits as being competition for him to play in the EPL. You can rule out guys of similar talent who just don't play in the English style or play their football in places off the radar of scouts for clubs like Reading. All of a sudden the numbers are not what people initially assumed...

If you had said someone of a lesser level than bod then your point would be more accurate.


As a side note, Ormond, do you have some kind of alarm that goes off when rugby is mentioned on any thread? It was barely mentioned and you were in like a shot! I don't know how you do it.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 04/12/2014 13:10:22    1676582

Greengrass
County: Louth
Posts: 3398

1676568
That's exactly it. A real competition for places from word go rather than a stroll in the park for the elite teams . My, my aren't you good at answering your own questions . Glad to see you have been amused . But then , little amuses the innocent .

Ha, it must take an awful lot of effort to continually miss the entire point.

The point I made, which you disagreed with, has nothing to do the club competitions and all to do with player numbers being PART of the competitiveness and difficulty associated with a PLAYER making it. It is less likely that a soccer player will make it to the elite level whereas it is more likely a rugby player will make. Your whole point about the rugby cup and the Champions League actually highlights this fairly well, a point I think Bennybunny highlighted for you earlier and still you do not get it! Priceless in fairness.

If you're the best rugby player in your school which is predominantly a rugby playing then you have a much better chance of playing for your country than the player who is the best soccer player in his school which is predominantly a soccer school, before anything else is taken into the account the above is true as true can be.

Deny it all you want but that is how it is.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13710 - 04/12/2014 13:12:59    1676583