I'm not saying I'm in favour. Just saying it could be viable. Aussie rules started professionally with just team in Melbourne (4m people ) and Adelaide (1m) people. It could be done. If the Gaa didn't own the stadia someone one probably try a breakaway pro competition. The argument that it is not affordable doesn't stack up. It can be done it's just "tradition" that prevents it.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1140 - 13/11/2014 20:00:31    1672118

A Super 20 competition or something similar would probably mean the death of the National League, probably a good thing but would that really hurt clubs? One fixed calendar with no replays and fixed windows for club fixtures would surely benefit clubs everywhere, no?

Forced amalgamations may not work but there may be better options. The example given above concerning rugby clubs in Wales is a very good one but still, is it fair that Sligo and Leitrim face into every year with no realistic chances of winning an All-Ireland? What good does it do for anyone, fans, players, games promotion?

HighKing81 (Meath) - Posts: 129 - 13/11/2014 20:03:45    1672119

I proposed a similiar type of concept a few months back.The difference being, i had the country divided into 16 new "counties/franchises".I look forward to the day when a man from Leitrim,Wicklow or Carlow will have as good a chance of winning an All Ireland as somebody from Kerry.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 13/11/2014 20:05:09    1672120

Can someone not come up with a better word than the imported American "francises".

lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 2991 - 13/11/2014 20:30:54    1672129

I would question the wisdom of forcing any county with a population below 100k to amalgamate and even then there may be better options. A mix of county and urban teams could work, e.g. a football team playing homegames at a venue like Tullamore but open to the best players in the surrounding areas who were willing to commit. It might be more managable than simply glueing counties together. Remember these counties were drawn up at the behest of Norman landlords, not for the benefit of Irish sports.

Still totally opposed to professionalism though.

HighKing81 (Meath) - Posts: 129 - 13/11/2014 20:33:38    1672133

cuederocket
County: Dublin
Posts: 1392

1672074
It maybe fanciful to you lockjaw,but to others such as myself,it is not so fanciful at all.

OK - explain to me financially how it could realistically work.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9165 - 14/11/2014 11:16:08    1672189

Professionalism
13/11/2014 12:59:58 Gavvygavgav
So Seamus Moynihan says that pay-for-play would be unsustainable and would destroy the club game.
Paul Galvin comes out and says Amateurism is unsustainable because the players aren't seeing fiscal benefits of the Sky deal and similar commercialsm.
What's it to be?
Money will kill this whole thing. Kill it dead.Money wont kill the GAA. Players and Coaches at the top level deserve some form of financial reward for what they give the GAA and its fans, be it grants(much higher than what has been there in past) or pay for play('x'€ per game played)

13/11/2014 14:16:12 JP91
There are only a few counties in Ireland that could support professionalism. Without massive growth abroad it will never happen. Maybe but between grants. Players getting sponsorship from a local business each as well as team sponsorship etc they could get some level of funding for playing at intercounty level

13/11/2014 14:18:36 KingdomBoy1
I said it was going to happen when sky got involved.How is that the case? Sky wont magically bring in or force bringing in of professionalism

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 14/11/2014 11:37:55    1672191

13/11/2014 14:48:23 Htaem
What do you think will happen though, will every county player will become a full time pro? semi professionalism? semi professionalism but only for a select few counties?

Like which of those did/are you predicting to happen? A mix of full pro's and semi pros. Some guys working as development officers for their county board while then being full time pro's outside that..
13/11/2014 15:15:32 galwaydublin
In order to sustain professionalism, A county team would need 10,000 attendance every 2 weeks for a minimum of 10-15 home games a season. For the likes of Leitrim, Sligo, Longford, Westmeath and Carlow,Fermanagh and a few others, this simply ain't going to happen. Aiden O Shea stated last year that some counties would have to merge. I don't think you could have more than 16 teams in hurling and 8 in football playing pro or semi pro, and that would be if it works. It could mean a pro league with certain counties and an amatuer with certain counties, similar to NZ rugby with their NPC (14 Pro teams) and the Heartland Championship (12 Amatuer teams). It would also require an AFL style competition with 20 - 25 home and away rounds as well as 4-5 weeks of finals. It would mean that players would play little if at all with their clubs if playing pro or semi pro.Where are you pulling such arbitrary numbers from? 10000 for 10-15 games. And surely you meant 16 teams in football and 8 teams in hurling? It wouldn't need 20-25 games and then 4-5 weeks of finals. Adapt current competitions where league based competition decides sam Maguire. provincial cups are played separately and there is an all Ireland cup... you could still have players playing with their clubs
13/11/2014 15:15:32 galwaydublin
Would Sligo and Leitrim work as a merger. Especially if they were based in Sligo and never played in Leitrim. This would have to be handled carefully. This has been the case with welsh rugby clubs, and e.g the Cardiff blues are supposed to take in their former rival clubs such as brigend and pontypryidd. Cardiff Blues did not change their name, play only in Cardiff, and the two other clubs could not care about them and will not support them.
I can't see it working. GAA fans are conditioned to follow their team for 2-5 big games per year and to ignore all others. It would take a culture change that could not possibly change overnight. I have to agree with Seamus Moynihan in this case. In Wales that's only 1 case. Other regions worked very well most notably the Neath Swansea Ospreys who worked very well.....

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 14/11/2014 11:49:58    1672195

Oh lord, if professionalism means turning inter-county teams into franchises than count me out. Kerry is Kerry, I don't want my county turned into some 'south west kings' franchise that has to include players from west Limerick and west Cork just to be professionally viable or a thing.

I think what another poster said as regards rugby is spot on. We can only sustain 4 teams professionally so for the GAA its a non-runner.

What I see happing is that more and more players will be paid by their county boards for coaching, training, development officer roles to give them some income and you will probably see the introduction of paid directors of hurling and football development, wherein county mangers will assume a role like that, managing the senior team but also overseeing conduct of all county football/hurling teams at under-age level, a bit like what Tipp tried to do with John Evans a few years back.

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 14/11/2014 11:52:59    1672197

Something like i already said lockjaw.I can see a reduction from 32 to 16 counties(amslgamated).Less teams -less cost.Funded through gate receipts snd TV revenue.Im not saying its even remotely close to happening,as its plainly not.Maybe not in my lifetime.Maybe never.Who knows?Just throwing it out there.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 14/11/2014 12:01:01    1672199

Professionalism will result in a drop in quality of player - what young guy will sacrifice his career for what a 1/2 year contract at the average industrial wage?

Look at All Star centre back Peter Crowley this would be his 3rd year on the Kerry panel and would'nt of been on the starting 15 at the start of the year would he sign a new contract or continue his professional career as a chemist?

Other players i doubt we would of seen at the top level if the games were pro

Eoin Brosnan - Solicitor
Anthony Moyles - Stock Broker
Stephen Lucey/Jack McCaffery/Ciaran McDonald (Tipp) - All in medicine
Anthony Maher/Stephen O Brein - Pharmaceutical scientists
Cian O Sullivan - Auditor
Cillian Buckley - Bio medicine
Sean Cavanagh/ Brian Farrell - Chartered Accountant
David Moran/Darren Gleeson - Investment banker
Brian Corcoran - Pharmaceutical MD

Add in all the Garda,Teachers,Army personnel with long careers and pensions - I would think most guys would look to play a year or 2 and get back into a far more financial secure future

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 14/11/2014 12:19:50    1672204

13/11/2014 16:22:17 besidetheditch
Look at rugby in Ireland and you will see straight away any talk of full time professionalism is a complete non-runner in Ireland.
Rugby can only barely support 4 teams in Ireland, and that's with a huge chunk of the wage bills of the Irish teams being paid for by the European competitions and the international competitions, which are reliant on French and English television rights (a joint market of 100+ million plus)
That's before you go near the clusterfeck of other issues professionalism would open up like employment law, pensions, damage to the club game,increased ticket prices. Basically full-time professionalism would be a nuclear bomb to the heart of the GAA. Rugby can support 4 teams fairly well. The big 3 have been fairly self sufficient over the past 10+ years in most funding and Connacht are subsidised but always improving their support base etc and the way the National side is run etc it is a 5th team that's fully pro.....
Between grants, every player being sponsored by a different local company in their county etc etc some form of pay for play, professionalism would be possible.
13/11/2014 19:21:27 HighKing81
tirawleybaron, while I'm very much in favour of regional teams you're failing to take demographics into account - yes, Kerry have wonderfull tradition and that ensures a level of competitiveness but when you look at the demographics we're talking about a county that's the same size as Mayo or Donegal. There has to be a better way. Simply glueing counties together may not work.
As for professionalism - it just cheapens the game. I used to be a very passionate Liverpool FC supporter but I can no longer stomach the Sky game or the muppets that support their 'superstars' with hard-earned money. Loyalty to the club or your roots means nothing anymore. These men are mercenaries. Who do you support? Man U or Liverpool? What's your favourite cola? Pepsi or Coke? Do you really want to see your local team turned into a brand because that's the reality we're looking at? That's quite unfair. Does professionalism really cheapen the game? Hasn't done so in quite a few sports. Has professionalism cheapened rugby?
Soccer went totally globalised and is very different to majority of sports that are pro...
13/11/2014 20:03:45 HighKing81
A Super 20 competition or something similar would probably mean the death of the National League, probably a good thing but would that really hurt clubs? One fixed calendar with no replays and fixed windows for club fixtures would surely benefit clubs everywhere, no?

Forced amalgamations may not work but there may be better options. The example given above concerning rugby clubs in Wales is a very good one but still, is it fair that Sligo and Leitrim face into every year with no realistic chances of winning an All-Ireland? What good does it do for anyone, fans, players, games promotion? A pro structure would merge the league and championship.. and yes clubs with a more professional layout at inter county level with fixed windows for games would totally benefit the clubs

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 14/11/2014 12:21:47    1672206

why in the first place would anybody want it to turn professional?
all of us enjoy the sport because quite simply its everything that professional sports are not
the sport means so much to players and supporters alike because its all about pride , where your from
and not about money or a means of living.

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 14/11/2014 12:26:48    1672208

Rugby is not a realistic comparison. Rugby is the 4th most popular sport in the country. If it can have 4 teams playing 28-30 games a year plus 6 home internationals and sustain 160 full time professionals then Gaelic Football could go professional easily, if set up correctly. Hurling has no chance.

I'm all for amateurism and tradition as reasons not to go professional but finance is not a good enough reason. My figures above show that it is financially viable if players are centrally contracted.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1140 - 14/11/2014 12:32:07    1672210

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 201

1672210
Rugby is not a realistic comparison. Rugby is the 4th most popular sport in the country. If it can have 4 teams playing 28-30 games a year plus 6 home internationals and sustain 160 full time professionals then Gaelic Football could go professional easily, if set up correctly. Hurling has no chance.
I'm all for amateurism and tradition as reasons not to go professional but finance is not a good enough reason. My figures above show that it is financially viable if players are centrally contracted.

but what your failing to take into account is that these figures all work as of now
because the gaa model we have now works and connects with the people
but if you go grouping countys into one team
how do you know the people will turn out to support that team
buy jerseys , get season tickets, tune into watch them play
you may lose quite a lot of income and followers of the sport meaning you wouldnt have the finances to actually
sustain professionalism

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 14/11/2014 12:38:11    1672211

Second reason is attendances- Only the provencial finals & onwards get the big crowds - League is a wash out

Kerry v Dublin in Killarney 2 years ago - 5,500
Kerry v Tyrone in Killarney this year - 5,000
Kerry v Cork in Tralee this year - 4,000

I would love to know the last time the 10k barrier was broke in the NFL without the Dubs playing.

To be honest i doubt players want professionalism,Why focus there career on something that lasts 6/7/8 years?

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 14/11/2014 12:44:50    1672215

cuederocket
County: Dublin
Posts: 1393

1672199
Something like i already said lockjaw.I can see a reduction from 32 to 16 counties(amslgamated).Less teams -less cost.Funded through gate receipts snd TV revenue.Im not saying its even remotely close to happening,as its plainly not.Maybe not in my lifetime.Maybe never.Who knows?Just throwing it out there.

Gate receipts and TV revenue? You'd need each amalgamation/franchise or whatever you want to call them pulling in crowds of around 20,000 consistently.
How would TV revenue cover it? Do you think Gaelic games are going to suddenly become popular across the continent and we're going to experience some sort of Champions League type influx of millions per year? Or that Sky are going to start throwing billions at us like they have the Premier League? Because that is the type of TV revenue you'd need to be talking about.


Sorry if I appear to be flippant towards your opinion. But as I said in an earlier post, it's totally fanciful to believe that a professional GAA could exist. And I've only touched on the financial aspect. There are a myriad of other obstacles to contend with, off the top of my head - amateur ethos, the club player, administration...

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9165 - 14/11/2014 12:51:13    1672219

Reward? possibly, Wages/Fees? No can't happen, you would have to completely restructure the games/structures and thousands would simply walk away. Now Pay-for-play is an option and stems directly from Pay-per-view - but, you will still have to reconcile whatever model you come up with against the existing structures at club/county levels.
I personally do not think its possible, the fact its an issue is because the GAA has made it so.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4898 - 14/11/2014 13:05:47    1672224

16 county professionalism isn't a runner. Amalgamated teams playing 22 matches a year is viable if the players are centrally contracted.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1140 - 14/11/2014 13:09:36    1672225

This is all a simple game of numbers, in order for the Gaa to go full time pro there needs to be a lot more of us to sustain it......so lads and lassies get the bottles of wine, stick on a bit of Marvin Gaye and get down to business ;-)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 14/11/2014 13:20:02    1672230