Down are probably the most unpredictable team next year. Gut feeling tells me though they could be in for a good year.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 30/10/2014 14:36:31    1668370

Besidetheditch
I think we would have to have a debate about your post about proven top forwards that Kerry / DUBLIN both have.
Now I talking from what I saw and to me the only DUBLIN forward who really played all through the game v Donegal was D Connolly. P Flynn played well in the first half but faded as the game went on and the full forward line did not threaten much
In the final it would be hard to pick out an outstanding , scoring forward and Kerry's total of points would back that up. As we discussed back in August ( what Brendan Devaney said) it easier for a blanket defence to contain forwards than for forwards to break down that defence.
So I can't see Donegal style changing a lot and don't forget most clubs in Donegal are playing ( JMcG) style football eg:: Glenswilly 1-4 St Micheals 1-2 It's not a great style of football but it's so effective. 2011Dublin 0-8 v Donegal and in 2011/12/13 TYRONE v Donegal ::: 0-9 0-10 and 0-9. TYRONE failed to find the net on three different occasions. Plus our two encounters with Kerry and we conceded 1-11 and 2-9 this year with the two goals this year down to poor defending and a mistake.
Also Antony Harkin has his hat in the ring, now here we have one of the top coaches in Ulster but would he make a good manager.
It willbe hard to judge where Donegal will be next year, they might not figure but again everything is in place, the players know what to do on the field of play so there could be another year in the team But I can't see Kerry , Mayo , Donegal and DUBLIN all getting to the semi finals. Could easily see the four of them loose their provincial crowns.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 30/10/2014 21:35:12    1668534

Sam - you're putting an awful lot of emphasis on the games Dublin and Kerry played against Donegal.

It wasnt the forwards that were the main issue in the Donegal Dublin game - even though a number of them had poor days, they still managed 17 scores, the same number of scores as Donegal mattered. The problem was the backs and the atrocious defending. Bar the Antrim game, the 17 points Dublin scored would have been enough to beat Donegal any other day in the championship. The Dublin game was the 3rd highest scoring Donegal ran up during McGuinness's reign - the only games where Donegal scored more were against Antrim and against Down in 2012. Dublin's forwards had a poor day, yet still managed to score 17 points, which would normally have been enough to beat Donegal but because the defence had a shocker Donegal won.

Kerry's forwards had an awful day - and yet they still managed to win. If they had had an average day they would have won comprehensively and if they had a good day it would have been a serious hammering for Donegal. How much better would the Donegal defence have to play to make the Kerry attack have another day where they end up shooting worse than 4 from 23?

All this against what is acknowledged as the top defensive side in the land, who have a much tougher route to the business end of the championship.

Basically Kerry and Dublin have enough firepower that they are nearly guaranteed to be involved in the business end of affairs next year ; Mayo should too as long as Cillian O'Connor doesnt pick up an injury or have a few off days.

Donegal's firepower will depend on where Murphy plays on the pitch and what kind of form the rest of the forwards are in - Will MacNiallias, McBrearty, and Ryan McHugh have better,worse of the same sort of seasons as this year? [these are young lads in intercounty terms and a lot of Donegal's fortunes in the coming years will depend on how they develop in terms of consistency - 2 of these were taken off while the 3rd only came on as a sub]. How will Mark McHugh fit in after his year out? Overall there is a lots more questions about the Donegal forwards and unlike the other 3 teams Donegal are straight into a dog-fight on their first championship game (and if they win that in to another)

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 31/10/2014 14:33:40    1668668

Beside the ditch
At least you have acknowledged that Donegal go straight into a dogfight and possibly another and maybe another before we even get to. An Ulster final. So once again that shows how competitive Ulster is comparing to most of the other provinces.
If , as you say Kerry had an off day would you say the way the Donegal defence play might have upset their style. Are you sure it was just bad shooting on Kerry's behalf or did Donegal's defending not contribute to it. Now if as you say Kerry have better forwards than a lot of teams would you not agree that 3 points was a poor return for around 36 minutes play. Even in the second half 6 points was A poor enough return.
In the Dub v Done game DUBLIN had 9 points after 25 minutes , they got 8 points over the next 45/48 minutes. Would be interesting to ask some of the top forwards in the country what's it like to play against the Donegal defence
One thing I can't stand is the way Cork defended in the MUNSTER final ::: backs standing off their man and giving them all the room they want it has also happened in Leinster with DUBLIN raking up massive scores and also missing a fair few goals at the same time
But I would not class the A I 2015 as a two horse race :: far from it. As I said the four provincial champions of 2014 could all easily loose their crowns. Plus tonight Donegal names all their county managers , Senior, minor and under 21

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 31/10/2014 15:16:59    1668685

If , as you say Kerry had an off day would you say the way the Donegal defence play might have upset their style. Are you sure it was just bad shooting on Kerry's behalf or did Donegal's defending not contribute to it. Now if as you say Kerry have better forwards than a lot of teams would you not agree that 3 points was a poor return for around 36 minutes play. Even in the second half 6 points was A poor enough return.


The thing was that that the Donegal had some effect on Kerry's shooting but in my opinion it clearly wasn't the major factor. The reason I would lay the blame mainly at the feet of the Kerry players is that there was a significant number of occasions where Kerry players in space hit bad wides or dropped the ball short under very little Donegal pressure. If the players in space are kicking awful terrible wides, then it's not surprising when they are marked if they continue to kick bad wides. Thinking about it I can't help wonder if it was a sign of inexperience - I'm almost tempted to watch back and see if it was those who were among the first time finalists for Kerry were the ones largely responsible for the awful shooting. Without looking back at it I do remember some of the bad efforts were from the 2 Geaneys, JOD had 1 he would normally slot, Maher had a bad effort, Walsh had a bad effort, AOM had a godawful attempt. Buckley hit the post -nNt sure who the other quilty parties were - there was one effort by the sub Keane who got a ball in space but took forever to complete his shot that allowed one of the Donegal players to close the space and make a block. Overall my abiding memory is of Kerry's poor shooting being spread throughout the team. Anyway I've wandered away from the point. The main thing is that if Donegal were playing Kerry another 9 times I would expect a much improved return from the Kerry team as opposed to a similar poor level of a return. This would be against the most defensive and miserly team in the country; so you can imagine what I think of their chances again some of the less capable defences.

But I would not class the A I 2015 as a two horse race :: far from it.

I wouldnt say it was a two horse race as that would imply that only 1 of 2 teams could win it. However I would say Dublin and Kerry have less distance to travel to get over the finish line than the rest of the field. With Donegal there is the age factor of the squad, the new manager and being on the horrible side of the draw so there are reasons to be concerned. If Jim was still there or if Donegal were in Connacht, there would be a lot less uncertainty about how far Donegal are likely to go next year, but that's the way the cookie has crumbled.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 31/10/2014 16:59:31    1668709

besidetheditch
County: Dublin
Posts: 33

1668668
Sam - you're putting an awful lot of emphasis on the games Dublin and Kerry played against Donegal.

It wasnt the forwards that were the main issue in the Donegal Dublin game - even though a number of them had poor days, they still managed 17 scores, the same number of scores as Donegal mattered. The problem was the backs and the atrocious defending. Bar the Antrim game, the 17 points Dublin scored would have been enough to beat Donegal any other day in the championship. The Dublin game was the 3rd highest scoring Donegal ran up during McGuinness's reign - the only games where Donegal scored more were against Antrim and against Down in 2012. Dublin's forwards had a poor day, yet still managed to score 17 points, which would normally have been enough to beat Donegal but because the defence had a shocker Donegal won.

Kerry's forwards had an awful day - and yet they still managed to win. If they had had an average day they would have won comprehensively and if they had a good day it would have been a serious hammering for Donegal. How much better would the Donegal defence have to play to make the Kerry attack have another day where they end up shooting worse than 4 from 23?

besidetheditch, I think that the only way to get some perspective on this is to look at the last game we played against kerry in the championship, which was 2 short years ago. Kerry had some awful wides that day too. It is a result of trying to play against the system that forces you to become reckless and tired. I think that is what happened dublin to a degree as well in august, they shot some very spectacular scores early but couldnt maintain this. Normally you would have got about 50% of them, so maybe 17 points was slightly flattering? we will never know for sure, but it will be a debate that carries forward to the playing pitches of 2015, that is the great thing about sport.

To say that if kerry had scored more of their chances has to be seen in this perspective, I dont think they looked in danger of losing the game to be honest, but I do think that they were barely worth 2-9. 1-10 would have been more like it.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 31/10/2014 17:17:43    1668719

Beside theodicy
I would say that bad shooting among forwards is fairly common in games and it's not alone Kerry that would be affected. We ourselves shot poor wides against Armagh in the quarter finals and from watching games over the years you see an awful lot of hard won possession being wasted.
As to Kerry playing Donegal 9 times again well I'd take Donegal to beat them at least 6 out of the 9.
I know we got probably the toughest draw in Ireland but no complaints, if we are good enough and lucky enough things might work out ok But Donegal could go well going in the back door. Of course injuries will have to be avoided and hopefully there won't be too many retirements
But I think Donegal football is in a good place at the moment. It was very interesting to read this year that Donegal reached half the Ulster finals played since 1989. I know we only won five of those finals but to me football is better organised today in Donegal than say 5/10/20 year ago. We might have a lean spell but I can see us with a good team again very shortly.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 31/10/2014 19:54:50    1668753

JP91
County: Armagh
Posts: 285

1668370
Down are probably the most unpredictable team next year. Gut feeling tells me though they could be in for a good year.

Down will be a dangerous proposition if they click, But getting enough momentum built up in Division 2 will be vital in determining whether or not they will present any kind of serious challenge in Ulster.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/11/2014 19:38:50    1669128

Hmmm.Mayo may or may not spark now. Armagh or Galway may well surprise a few. Cork haven't gone away either. Donegal should wane from now on. Dublin have the potential to dominate if they play with a bit of sense defensively. Kerry's task remains the same: holding on to a few old dogs while blooding, the new (the bench should be red hot if nothing else).
Generally, it would be nice to see some refereeing consistency, and the black card shouldn't be a stranger. If it had been used properly then Mayo now would be the kings of all they survey. Braying from blowhards in the Pale and the Kingdom notwithstanding.

plike (Kerry) - Posts: 569 - 03/11/2014 09:46:41    1669220

Debate the top 4/5 teams , no issues with that but why do some posters insist on mentioning dark horses and potential shocks and include the likes of meath, kildare, down, Armagh, monaghan. Would these teams shock the current mayo side? of course not. Kerry, Dublin, Mayo top 3 and Donegal have earned the right to be considered in the mix up but leave out the silly stuff, the second tier teams have no chance of an AI.

switec (Kildare) - Posts: 525 - 03/11/2014 12:13:04    1669297

1668370
Down are probably the most unpredictable team next year. Gut feeling tells me though they could be in for a good year.

Down will be a dangerous proposition if they click, But getting enough momentum built up in Division 2 will be vital in determining whether or not they will present any kind of serious challenge in Ulster.

I think getting up enough momentum could basically be described as gaining promotion.

In terms of getting up momentum in Division 2, Down have history when you look back at 2010 when they got to the final, it was off the back of promotion from Division 2. Cork did the same the year before - got to the final after getting promoted from Division 2 and Donegal did it this year as well. Of course none of them did win it in the end, but it does show that it's possible for a team that comes out of Division 2 to have a good championship. Donegal also got to the semifinal in 2011 after promotion.

If Down win promotion and get over Derry in their first game it would set them up very nicely to have a cut off whoever comes through from Donegal/Tyrone/Armagh, with the reward of an Ulster final against Monaghan or Cavan.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 03/11/2014 15:59:20    1669415

Be under no illusions that Kerry will be the team to beat next year, followed closely by dublin. The field follows.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 03/11/2014 16:37:11    1669430

Thank god it will be a two horse race next year. This year's was billed as only a one horse race. Should be exciting stuff

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 03/11/2014 20:06:52    1669491

I really do not get all this hype about Kerry for next year...again today we have the Kerry camp talking up the great gooch comeback...where was the mighty gooch in 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2008...marked out of key games against Tyrone and obliterated in the second half in 2002 against the great Francie bellew...in 2006 all the talk was how the great Tyrone team were going to win another all Ireland at a canter...a string of injuries and they bowed out in a 2nd rnd qualifier in portlaoise.
It really is time to stop all this nonsense..at this stage next years all Ireland is in the mix..anyone of cork, Mayo,Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and yes even Dublin and Kerry are in the mix...with any of those teams the loss of form or key players to injury will see them bow out early...time to stop the nonsense...for gods sake lads it's November!

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 04/11/2014 09:15:14    1669528

mayotyroneman
County: Tyrone
Posts: 1241

1669528
I really do not get all this hype about Kerry for next year...again today we have the Kerry camp talking up the great gooch comeback...where was the mighty gooch in 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2008...marked out of key games against Tyrone and obliterated in the second half in 2002 against the great Francie bellew...in 2006 all the talk was how the great Tyrone team were going to win another all Ireland at a canter...a string of injuries and they bowed out in a 2nd rnd qualifier in portlaoise.
It really is time to stop all this nonsense..at this stage next years all Ireland is in the mix..anyone of cork, Mayo,Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and yes even Dublin and Kerry are in the mix...with any of those teams the loss of form or key players to injury will see them bow out early...time to stop the nonsense...for gods sake lads it's November!

Im not sure its all about Gooch any more to be honest. If there were a county expert at red herrings and taking the heat off the main threats, it is kerry. They have the strongest mid field in the country and a very lively and versatile full forward line. Their defense is as tight as it needs to be now, perhaps it will get even tighter, and they can play a very tactically shrewd game. Couple all this with a winning habit, and you are looking at a team who are not going to be beaten easily. Fitzmaurice will be looking to correct the 2011 final in his own mind, a game I think that many kerry people think they threw away. That is a huge motivating factor for him. I think they will take all the beating. I am waiting to see a team from connaught, and thought that this year would be the big one for them. Ulster teams are a bit washed up at the moment I know it is very early indeed to be talking like this. Hopefully you are right. i would love to see a Tyrone team come good again, provided they dont do it in ballybofey. Its all pie in the sky really at this stage, Kerry look ominous.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 04/11/2014 10:15:07    1669539

Well with a name like Mayo/Tyrone man tis no wonder you would be flinging a bit of mud in Gooch's and Kerry's direction!
Your argument is pure BS, and you know it:

2002 was Gooch's first season with Kerry. So he didn't play well (in the second half) against a seasoned defender like Francie, wow that's really a damming indictment of the man.
2003, his second year with Kerry and he was part of a team that was swamped by Tyrone and simply did not play to anything like their potential, not much a young fella like himself could do that day.
2005 final, scores 0-5. That's fairly impressive stuff against the much vaunted Tyrone defence which was reduced to eye gouging to unsettle him, in case you choose tom forget that unsavoury incident.
2008 final, scores 0-6 and is top scorer in the game.

Any more BS you'd like to post today???

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 04/11/2014 10:34:27    1669546

If Kerry are to have a weakness next year I think it will be in the defence.

I could well see Marc O'Se and Aidan O'Mahony hanging up the boots given they will be 35 next year.

If those 2 go they really would be struggling for experience in defence.

Young has good intercounty experience but beyond that you are looking at a fair few lads that are far closer to the start of their inter-county careers in Enright, Crowley, Fitzgerald, Murphy and Griffin, and that's in front of a fairly new keeper as well. An injury or two there and they's surely be in trouble - there's no way they can pull another Paul Murphy trick in terms of pulling a lad out of nowhere.

I suppose the fact that they won Sam will help them in terms of confidence and this year's campaign would have been a massive boost to their development but if there is going to be an area where they are weak it will surely be the defence - especially when you look at the options in terms of midfield and forwards.

In the forwards they'll have Cooper, JOD, Donnacha & Tommy Walsh, Donaghy, Declan & Darran O'Sullivan, Paul and Mikey Geaney, Stephen O'Brien, Kieran O'Leary, Barry John Keane and Johnathon Lyne competing for places. I did hear talk that Declan O'Sullivan might retire due to dodgy knees but even if he does retire that's a hell of a lot of panel depth to be working with.

At Midfield they'll have Moran, Maher, Buckley and Sheehan (I'm including T Walsh and Donaghy in the forwards) but you could probably move 1 or both between categories and it won't make much odds to my main point, which is that if they do have a weakness next year it will be defensively. Of course O'Se and O'Mahony could stay on but when you look at that panel you can understand why they are one of the favourites, especially when they have Fitzmaurice in charge of them.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 04/11/2014 11:43:08    1669567

switec
County: Kildare
Debate the top 4/5 teams , no issues with that but why do some posters insist on mentioning dark horses and potential shocks and include the likes of meath, kildare, down, Armagh, monaghan. Would these teams shock the current mayo side? of course not.

Ok take your own county. If Kildare beat Mayo next summer if they meet I would be shocked. Same as if they beat Kerry, Dublin or Donegal.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 04/11/2014 12:24:34    1669583

I agree with everything besidetheditch has said. The potential forward line Kerry could have next year looks amazing. If they click together they will be very difficult to stop particularly with a strong midfield. In saying that I would still have Dublin and Kerry as favourites to win the All Ireland. But I don't think it will be a Kerry V Dublin final despite them being opposite sides of the draw. Plenty of teams capable of upsetting one of them but it will be difficult for any county to beat both.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 04/11/2014 12:49:02    1669597

I don't know lads, I suppose our defence could be a weak point if Mahoney and Marc retire but I have been very impressed with pa Kilkenny and Jonathan lyne can play at half back also jack Sherwood if he can get back to full fitness would be a very good option, also if we play a blanket defence that'll give the young lads a bit of reassurance , and we had the best defence in 2014.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 04/11/2014 14:30:31    1669628