Roundball - I don't see how Horan's record in All Ireland finals is any better than Horan's.

Horan had the chance to win the All Ireland and didn't. If he had made the correct decisions on the line in 2012 and 2013, there's every chance we could've won those matches. Same can be said for both Semi Finals against Kerry this year. We didn't win and I think he's a huge factor in this outcome.

The teams Mort was on were beaten out the gate in 2004 and 2006. He couldn't have done a whole lot about either result regardless of how he played.

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 28/10/2014 15:54:42    1667805

I guess the way to look at it would be was there always six forwards better than Mort over the 3/4 years on the Mayo team? I don't think so - nobody is saying he would have been the best but I think he would have been one of the six.
SamOnErrigal I agree with you but it was also James Horan's responsibility to win an All Ireland and the question is did he do enough when it came to Mort? I think not. McGuinness can say at least he won something.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1805 - 28/10/2014 16:15:53    1667815

Quite a tailored way of looking at things pdempsey. Strange how you absolve Mortimer of any guilt on the back of his teammates' performances, yet horan takes the blame on the back of his player's performances. Also, it should be pointed out to you that using your logic, if more players had performed poorly and mayo had gotten well beaten then horan wouldn't be to blame in any way...
Horan didn't make any massive mistakes, he just made some decisions on calls that needed to be made, some didn't work out, others did - same as any manager. The way some people go on you would swear he took off our best player and put on his own son. The calls he made were reasonable.

The reality is people place too much blame on horan because the loss hurt them, and they want someone to direct those feelings at. In time, when the emotion goes out of it, people will realise and remember the absolutely exceptional job horan did with mayo, and the elite level at which he was operating at.

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 28/10/2014 16:17:47    1667817

Belclare1
County: Galway
Posts: 353

1667749
Gleebo... Go through the great Galway teams from 98 to 01, they all won 2 All Irelands, all stars, Sigersons, Club All Irelands. Michael Donnellan , Ja Fallon, P Joyce, D Savage Tomas Mannion, to name a few, Others like Peter Canavan, Ciaran Whelan, the great Kerry players.. None of them brought out books or are constantly in the media always giving out about previous managers etc. He always craved the spotkight with his bleached hair and his T shirt!!! Compared to most he was still an under achiever!!

I am not rushing out to buy Mortimer's book, and nor do I think he was right to walk out on Mayo, days before the Connacht final. I had written this in the last paragraph of my previous post, but unfortunately, the Mods inserted a more anodyne wording, which changed the context of the comment a bit.

None of this changes that he reached a high level in the game. Was he in the class of Joyce, Canavan, Cooper etc.? No. That doesn't mean he can't write a book if he wants; this is a free society. It doesn't matter what others did or didn't do. BTW, quite a few of those on your list ended up in the media in one way or another ;)

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 28/10/2014 16:39:44    1667821

SamOnErrigal
County: Donegal
Posts: 674

1667769
Gleebo
The bottom line is he failed to stay on board the county panel, do his training and might have helped Mayo win an All Ireland As regards to what he has win , IMO he should have stayed on board and tried to help win the real prize::: a CELTIC Cross With the right attitude could have been an asset to Mayo over the last 3/4 years but he seems to be doing just what K Cassidy has done the last few weeks, going back into the past and airing old grievances

I don't disagree with much of that, SamOnErrigal, but to claim he did nothing in the game, as a few are on here, is nonsense.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 28/10/2014 16:42:52    1667823

torres
County: All
Posts: 32

1667799
Yes J Horan has played in 3 finals ( replay included)and managed in 2 also. Mortimer played in 2 and lost 2. horan played in 3 lost 3 and managed the mayo team to two and lost miserably also. so how in the name of jasus has horan a better record ?? involved in 5 lost them all mortimer in 2 only ??

Well, in fairness to Horan, he could probably say that he scored five points from play in the 1996 final (first game and replay) which is something that Mortimer didn't come close to achieving. Horan's sides all went a lot closer than the teams that Mort played on, too.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 28/10/2014 16:47:48    1667826

If he is bringing out a book I hope he gets the spelling checked, we don't want another MICHEAL JACKSON moment

Hunky_Dorys (Galway) - Posts: 21 - 28/10/2014 17:20:34    1667836

pdempsey
County: Mayo
Posts: 856

1667805
Roundball - I don't see how Horan's record in All Ireland finals is any better than Horan's.

Horan had the chance to win the All Ireland and didn't. If he had made the correct decisions on the line in 2012 and 2013, there's every chance we could've won those matches. Same can be said for both Semi Finals against Kerry this year. We didn't win and I think he's a huge factor in this outcome.

The teams Mort was on were beaten out the gate in 2004 and 2006. He couldn't have done a whole lot about either result regardless of how he played.

I don't think Horan did a whole lot wrong 2012-2014.

2012- How was he supposed to legislate for Kevin Keane, his best available option at the time, dropping the ball in to Colm McFadden's path. You could argue he got the match ups wrong at the start but nobody that year anticipated that Murphy would play on the edge of the square.

2013- Ultimately again personal errors, a good Dublin performance and misfortune cost Mayo. What was Horan supposed to do about Rob Hennelly coming for a ball he shouldn't have. He took off Alan Freeman early but Freeman had flu. Mayo fans wanted Feeney in- why? What did Feeney do to merit game time? He clearly had a game plan. Higgins was there to isolate Ger Brennan for pace and it worked early on. That was badly disrupted by Cunniffe's injury. In fact the one complaint I'd make against Horan that day was he was too slow to take a clearly struggling Cunniffe off. It cost Mayo 2 points before half time.

2014- Here he was really unlucky. His two best players run in to each other and miss a big chunk of the game because of it. His only full back is clearly injured and up against a resurgent Donaghy. Had he Shane McHale fit I think he would have used him earlier. Keane did admirably considering the scars he suffered in the above 2012 final. Everybody lauded Eamon Fitzmaurice as a genius this year, but if Shane Enright had been sent off as he should have been Kerry people would have been wondering why he was being destroyed by Cillian O Connor while Marc O Se warmed the bench. Kerry won that game because they had marginally better players on the field for more of the game, not because Fitzmaurice is any smarter than Horan.

Sometimes the genius or idiocy of managers is overstated. They can't be judged on one or two isolated decision. Under Horan Mayo consistently put well prepared, well drilled teams on the pitch. I fail to find a single championship game where he set them up poorly, games where players under-performed- yes, but that happens. He learned as he went. I firmly believed, based on the league he had a plan for Cluxton. I think Mayo would have beaten Donegal had they got over Kerry.

Mortimer on the other hand played on a Mayo team that was inconsistent and naive. He was a chief culprit. I have nothing against him, he was a fine player, great left foot. But when it comes to big days Horan produced it. The 96 finals, the Connacht Final against the reigning champions in Tuam in 99. He put competitive teams on the park in 2012 and 2013, something you couldn't say about 04 or 06. He's left Mayo football in a stronger position than it's been in 60 years. Mortimer is no place to criticise him.

roundball (Tipperary) - Posts: 2514 - 29/10/2014 17:57:34    1668143

You are spot on Roundball.

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 29/10/2014 18:12:27    1668146

The most interesting thing about this book will be finding out if it comes in join the dots or pop-up format.

If this is the standard of book we're heading towards then it won't be long before half of us on here pen our memoirs.

if_in_doubt (Kildare) - Posts: 3685 - 29/10/2014 18:59:18    1668162

Gleebo, it's about the size of the fight in the dog not the size of the dog in the fight. He was similar in height to Trevor and Kenneth who both built themselves up over the years. As did Abdy Moran, not a big man at all but would go through a brick wall to win ball. Physical aggression wasn't Conor's best attribute. A good footballer when he felt like it. Could have been very good if he had upped his aggression and worked more on getting scores from play.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 29/10/2014 20:40:02    1668191

Well said Roundball

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 30/10/2014 09:45:33    1668229

You miss a lot of obvious points Roundball.
1. Having no plan B for Kieran Donaghy in replay when it was obvious that he had the beating of Cafferkey. Cafferkey wasn't injured for either game. He got cramp towards the end of the first game and same for the second game as far as I know.
2. Leaving Aidan O'Se on the pitch in 2012, 2013 and 2014 for the last 10 - 20 mins. On each occasion Aidan was out of juice, due to the effort he had put in (and concussion in 2014). We had good replacements on the side line and Horan didn't use them. He actually reintroduced Aidan in extra time for replay against Kerry even though he had a fully fit Jason Gibbons.
3. 2013 - Leaving Keith Higgins on O'Gara for the last 20 mins when it was clear to everyone in Croke Park that O'Gara had a torn hamstring.
4. 2013 & to a lesser extent 2012 - Leaving Alan Dillon on the pitch for as long as he did. Dillon had a howler in 2013 and was indirecrtly responsible for a number of Dublin scores. Including coughing up the turnover that led to Brogans goal.
5. Enda Varley

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 30/10/2014 10:17:47    1668238

Roundball that was one of the best posts I have seen on this site in a long time.
Bualadh bas

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 30/10/2014 10:19:43    1668239

Fair play roundball, that is a well rounded and objective post and it is a shame we don't get more like it on the board. The stuff pdempsey is peddling makes the assumption that every other manager got everything 100% spot on all the time. As you pointed out about Fitzmaurice - who is a top class manager and someone I rate highly, had certain things gone a different way - and some would say they way they should have, then he would be getting serious questions thrown at him in the same fashion. You have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Horan done an unbelievable job with mayo, and it is to the detriment of the game that one of the elite managers of the day is no longer involved. Hopefully he returns soon, because he was one of the leading lights over the last few years. We have guys within mayo who cant see this because as countymen, they cant take that step back that maybe an objective person could. Thy are caught up in the emotion, the what ifs, the losses, and cant see that every team has what ifs and no manager will get everything right all the time. It isn't possible, he has another manager trying to outfox him at every turn.

Also pdempsey, you say Jason gibbons should have came on, then clearly, you hadn't watched the first half of the Kerry game, where they targeted his lack of mobility, were successful, and built up a platform to get primary possession around the middle. Or the part in the second half where the more mobile parsons was introduced and Aidan O'Shea came into the middle third and dominated it - David Moran and all. If they had a plan for gibbons, then putting him back in was hardly a good move was it?

TheMaster (Mayo) - Posts: 16187 - 30/10/2014 12:02:54    1668284

The teams Mort was on were beaten out the gate in 2004 and 2006. He couldn't have done a whole lot about either result regardless of how he played.

So he didn't bother. What a team player.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 30/10/2014 12:23:38    1668294

TheMaster
County: Mayo
Posts: 12203

1668284
Fair play roundball, that is a well rounded and objective post and it is a shame we don't get more like it on the board. The stuff pdempsey is peddling makes the assumption that every other manager got everything 100% spot on all the time. As you pointed out about Fitzmaurice - who is a top class manager and someone I rate highly, had certain things gone a different way - and some would say they way they should have, then he would be getting serious questions thrown at him in the same fashion. You have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Horan done an unbelievable job with mayo, and it is to the detriment of the game that one of the elite managers of the day is no longer involved. Hopefully he returns soon, because he was one of the leading lights over the last few years. We have guys within mayo who cant see this because as countymen, they cant take that step back that maybe an objective person could. Thy are caught up in the emotion, the what ifs, the losses, and cant see that every team has what ifs and no manager will get everything right all the time. It isn't possible, he has another manager trying to outfox him at every turn.

Also pdempsey, you say Jason gibbons should have came on, then clearly, you hadn't watched the first half of the Kerry game, where they targeted his lack of mobility, were successful, and built up a platform to get primary possession around the middle. Or the part in the second half where the more mobile parsons was introduced and Aidan O'Shea came into the middle third and dominated it - David Moran and all. If they had a plan for gibbons, then putting him back in was hardly a good move was it?



Master while you make a couple of good points and I think a lot of people are far too critical of Horan you make a couple of points that also contradict each other. You point out how Kerry targeted Gibbons and his lack of mobility so Horan introduced the more mobile Parsons which was a good move at the time as we took over. But what did Horan do the next day out? Dropped Gibbons and instead of the obvious choice Parsons he went for the even less mobile Barry Moran. That made zero sense and didn't work at all. I have stated many times that Horan brought Mayo on leaps and bounds in a lot of areas especially our physicality but there can be no doubt his decisions at times were puzzling.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 30/10/2014 13:06:55    1668319

Mayo should have been beaten in the first round this year by Roscommon.
they were lucky to get over that.

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 30/10/2014 13:24:36    1668331

And Kerry were very lucky to get past Clare. So what?

Gaillimh_Abu (Galway) - Posts: 996 - 30/10/2014 15:24:55    1668394

Irrespective of what you think of Mortimer, he did speak the most sensible thing I've ever heard him say, about the 2012 and 2013 Finals.

Mayo blew up at the start of the 12 Final and didn't have the legs against a Dublin team that didn't play too well and won.

But hes trying to sell a book so hes gonna be controversial. Pinch of salt in anything he says. Hes cooking up controversy. He proclaimed himself to be Mayo's greatest ever forward. Kinda sums Mortimer up doesn't it!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 30/10/2014 16:39:40    1668418