How about splitting the country into 2 provinces north and south? All counties north mayo and Dublin play in northern division so that would be Leitrim Sligo Roscommon Meath Westmeath and Louth Longford go north and the rest go in to south, that would leave Dublin Kildare Offaly Laois Wexford Wicklow Kerry cork Clare limerick tipp Waterford mayo and Galway in the south , have them play off and top 4 go through to quarter finals.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/11/2014 13:33:27    1673032

legendzxix

Based on some of the FRC findings however, it's unlikely a solution away from the provincial set-up can be found.

I agree, not everybody would be happy with the provincials being taken out of the championship but I think there are solutions that would ease the blow a bit. Personally I think that the World Cup format is best but I'd like to see the provincials retained, just not as part of the championship itself, now a lot of people would argue that, that would completely diminish their importance and they have a point.

But a simple way of retaining their importance (at least to some degree) would be to play them before the championship proper (World Cup format) and give top seeds to all the provincial finalists which works out at a convenient 8 teams, then use the league to seed the remaining 24 teams. Now the provincial champions would be prioritized in the draw and kept apart to ensure that all the provincial winners could in fact still meet in the All-Ireland semi finals and you could even use the old rota system so the tradition wouldn't be completely lost.

Ps, as for the groups themselves I mean you make a valid point in keeping them for 2 years but I'd suggest to draw them every year and give every team one home game, one away game and play the final game on neutral soil, or alternatively counties could come up with their own arrangements if they wished to.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 18/11/2014 13:58:36    1673044

17/11/2014 14:07:16 tirawleybaron
How about limiting county players to 15 intercounty matches per year and 20 club and all players to 35.
52 weeks, give 4 months off per year. I's say that's not enough games. Limit all players to 40 matches per year. Stops players getting over played and gives other players a chance.
When I played, I would take a game every week rather than spending a Sunday running up and down sand dunes.
If you structure the season, then players get breaks.
Jan - preseason
Feb-April - leagues
April/May Provincial Championships
June - Club Championships (if you get knocked out early you can head away for summer to work)
July/August - All Ireland Series (club players might even get holidays in here somewhere)
Sept-Nov - Club championships (club players back from Holidays for serious stuff)
Dec - Offseason
All matches extra time, no staggering of intercounty fixtures. Stagger hurling in the opposite way so you have intercounty hurling championships in June, August and September so we have televised intercounty sport from February to September to keep the profile high.
It can all be done easy enough. 52 weekends in the year.
4 for preseason, 4 for off season, 17 intercounty, 27 left for club
limit players to 35 and you have 9 weeks off through the season That's fine but what of the many club players(and some inter county) who play other sports. You need more than 1 month of an off season. Players deserve more than that
Why play the league completely before championship starts? Mix rounds of league through the year. Play club championships all through the summer
35 games is probably too high a level to limit players too.. But the real limit should be in the number of training sessions players have to do which is way too high at the moment

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 18/11/2014 16:25:44    1673096

17/11/2014 16:49:43 Donegalman
Correct, it is a hell of a lot to ask of an amateur player. With the amount of money now in the game, there should be at least mandatory health insurance provided for the players for life, as a perk for their time and effort. It could be picked up by the sponsors quite easily. No that wouldn't easily be covered by sponsors. There is a lot of work done by the top players but that is never going to happen. Should the top amateur swimmers(many of whom do 20+ hours training a week), triathletes(likewise 20+ hours training a week) etc all get health insurance provided for them for life?...

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 18/11/2014 16:29:15    1673097

There isn't a need to scrap provincial championships if they were separated from the All-Ireland championship. The league should be league phase only. Two weekends already freed up for the provincial championships prior to the All-Ireland championship. Advantage of going far in the province being more competitive games ahead of the championship.
The championship then, take a pick of options. Be it world cup like group stage or double elimination format.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 18/11/2014 19:00:24    1673144

To Kingdom Boy -

In the early 1980s, the NFL was split in two exactly as you describe, except for one difference - Mayo were North and Meath were South.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2602 - 18/11/2014 19:04:00    1673146

Omahant
I can't remember that but I would be interested to find out how it worked out? I suggested splitting the country in 2 to cut down traveling times for fans, I think when you split the counties in to 2 groups then you have an open draw til there is only 4 teams left in each group imagine you could have Kerry v Dublin in the first game with the loser gone out of the championship, then the 4 from the northern group come up against the 4 from the southern group in an open draw again meaning you get a north south final , I think it would be straight forward and fair , what do yo think? Also a team would only have to win 5 games to win the all Ireland.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/11/2014 20:52:22    1673180

Kingdomboy - Couldn't have Mayo in the south Division. Shorter distances to the northern section. The 1980s league set up is a better option. Limerick is still not halfway been Mayo and Kerry

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 19/11/2014 09:16:50    1673237

Would it be fair to say that considering all the suggestions there is an appetite for significant changes to the football championship?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 19/11/2014 09:25:59    1673243

While wining a provincial is a major success for some teams, it does seem very unfair when in connacht division 3 team (roscommon) will reach the pro- final by beating ONE team another div3 or div 4 team, Kerry will reach pro- final by beating ONE div 4 team.
In ulster donegal to reach pro-final will have to beat 3 teams form div 1 or 2.

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 20/11/2014 12:08:05    1673616

madbull
County: Westmeath
Posts: 16

1673616
While wining a provincial is a major success for some teams, it does seem very unfair when in connacht division 3 team (roscommon) will reach the pro- final by beating ONE team another div3 or div 4 team, Kerry will reach pro- final by beating ONE div 4 team.
In ulster donegal to reach pro-final will have to beat 3 teams form div 1 or 2.

Its not just donegal, its other teams likewise. Armagh or tyone or derry/down have stinkers of games ahead of them to make the final. The debate is whether these fixtures harden a team up and give then the required match fitness and champoionship experience for the later stages of the all ireland, or whether these games wear out the teams.

I would say it is somewhere between the 2. Case and examples are ourselves in 2012 and this year. We got very good tough games under our belt and it showed against dublin last august.
But the converse is the case also. Injuries, suspensions and too many games in too short a space of time will doom a team going into a big game in august. Monaghan this year didnt do themselves justice against dublin, they were too worn out. (having played tyrone, played armagh twice and then donegal, followed by extra time v kildare).

The dilemma is how to sort this out if at all

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 20/11/2014 13:01:55    1673637

This is not a go at counties (kerry, roscommon) and making a case for others but highlighting the difficults others eg Donegal. next year it will be someone else, but i think soln need provincial finals. maybe something like provinal winners in last eight and a second open draw for all teams knock out and both running side by side With all team in both competitions (with 32, 16 winners, open draw down to 8, open draw down to 4) these four plus 4 pro wnners in quaters finals for all Ireland maybe if a team makes it in both get go straight to semis.

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 20/11/2014 13:45:27    1673655

problems with a "B" champ :

1) Gaa would not show it any respect. When Wicklow won the Tommy Murphy and they were receiving the trophy, the teams for the next match were running out on to the pitch.

2) Some counties paid lip service to it.


I do agree though that a properly run competition is required, the gap in quality and tradition is too large between top and bottom.

sponger (Wicklow) - Posts: 2897 - 20/11/2014 14:16:50    1673674

Not a "B " competition but to two ways to get to last 8 of all ireland .
1. Pro winner (4 teams)
2. last four inseparate open draw knock out, no back door, for all 32 teams
Both competition run from May onwards

all eight (4 +4) in quater finals for all ireland
if team wins both pro and reaches last 4 in second competition auto matically into semi

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 195 - 20/11/2014 14:26:11    1673683

interesting to see Sponger and Madbull have two entirely different ideas on a changed format.

Madbulls idea give more games (which I like as I would get to see mayo play more matches), but I would fear that the provincial winners would treat the open draw as trial matches for fringe players and rest up their big names until the all ireland quarters ensuring they are fresh and ready to take on an opposition that has played 4 extra matches to get there, shown their full hand and maybe worn out.

Sponger - would a round robin B championship for the bottom sixteen counties with entry into the all ireland semis be of interest to a county like Wicklow or would a championship for the bottom eight with entry to the all Ireland quarters be of more value?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 21/11/2014 09:07:57    1673878

I'd be opposed to forcibly removing any county from the Sam Maguire competition. The championship is the main games promotion driver and we should have nationwide participation with the exception of KK.
Also a lot of the counties in the firing line for a 'B' championship have already been removed from the hurling championship. Some counties will literally have NO top level GAA championship to aim for at all if you take them out of the football. You really cannot disenfranchise players and fans like that.
Now you could have a possible 'B' Championship whereby the 8 losers from the Round 1 qualifier go into a QF and play knock out from there. Meaning small counties have 3 guaranteed games a year.
Give it a slightly better name than B Championship or Tommy Murphy. The All Ireland Football Challenge Cup perhaps. Have it on TG4 and play the final in CP. All other fixtures to based on home and away agreements.

RoyalBadger (Meath) - Posts: 571 - 21/11/2014 11:12:56    1673916

Open draw - Top 16 teams based on last 5 years Lge & Champ - 8 winners progress to last 16
Open draw- Bottom 16 teams based on last 5 years Lge & Champ - 8 winners progress to round 2 where 4 winners progress to last 16
Provencal Championships - 4 winners progress to last 16

Big first round games - All teams can win the All Ireland in relatively the same amount of games - With seeding in the open draw everyone can fancy winning there first round champ game plus the "weaker counties" can realistically look for a run to the last 16/Quater finals

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 21/11/2014 11:13:26    1673917

I would like to see a meaningful competition for the weaker counties with silverware at the end of it - then entry into the main competition

Provencal Championships (seeded based on last 5 years League & Champ) - All finalists progress to last 16 (home draw in last 16 for winners)

All Ireland B - Open draw - 16 teams eliminated in provincial early rounds - 8 progress to round 2 where 6 progress to round 3 and 2 progress to last 16 - winner gets home draw in last 16
Qualifiers - 8 losing provincial semi finalist (qualifiers) - 4 winners progress to last 16, losing 4 play off to produce 2 into last 14

Last 16:
Provincial Champ v qualifier loser
Provincial Champ v qualifier loser
Provincial Champ v All Ireland B loser
Provincial Champ v qualifier winner
All Ireland B winner v Beaten Provincial Finalist
Beaten Provincial finalist v Qualifier winner
Beaten Provincial finalist v Qualifier winner
Beaten Provincial finalist v Qualifier winner

Provincial Champs kept apart in all ireland quarters

All of the above keeps 20 counties playing into July

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 21/11/2014 13:21:59    1673950

To Tirawleybaron -
you make a lot of sense. I still feel my 24/7 idea brings fairness with the minimum of change.
1) Lein 8, Uls 8, (Muns 4 + Conn 4), form 3x8 'regions';
2) And along with '4th 8', thd best 4x8 structure;
3) '4th 8' play for the Tommy Murphy Cup (TMC), and either 'miss thd cut of 24' either a) by scrapping the prov 1st rds, or b) retaining it;
4) The 24 play 3 KO rounds to crown 3 unbeaten prov champs (after playoff of Muns and Conn champs), with losers of 12, 6 and 3 entering 3 Qual rds;
5) 5 winners from final Qual rd (incl TMC champ) join 3 unbeaten prov champs in the AI Series.

Alternatively, keep existing system, with the following changes:
1) Add prov losinb finalists to Qual Rd 2 ( now Rd of 20);
2) Have one prov champs playoff rd ( 2 losers to Qual Rd 3, noe Rd of 12);
3) 6 winners from Rd 3, join 2 unbearen prov champs in AI Series.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2602 - 23/11/2014 17:25:53    1674370

Just posted my 24/7 and Champs Rd formats - so I put everything in one place, I put two more here.

'Treble Chance' - keep existing structure, with following changes:
1) Either all 32 play in provs, or as I prefer, Top 4 only from each prov in the NFL play in prov SFs (incl prior yr prov & TMC champs); Other 16 to Qual Rd 1;
2) 8 prov finalists play 3 KO Rds, for 'Champions Cup' with losers of 4, 2 and 1, going to Qual Rds 4, 5 and 6;
3) 8 Qual Rd 2 winners to KO Tom Murphy Cup (TMC), with winner to AI QFs (Qual Rd 6);
4) 16 losers in Qual Rds 1 and 2, go to Qual Rd 3 (3rd chance, if all 32 in provs- this really addresses prov imbalance);
5) Qual Rds 3, 4, 5 and 6 have quantities of 16, 12, 8 and 6;
6) 3 AI QF winners join the Champs Cup winner in the AI SFs.

'Prov Groups'
Mixing some of priof ideas from others.
1) 4 provs of 8, each 8 split into 2 groups, weakest Uls and 1 Lein to Conn and 2 Lein to Muns;
2) Each prov has a stronger group and a weaker ( to avoid mismatches), with 4 LeinUls in lower groups;
3) Each plays 3 group matches - top 2 in Upper groups to 4 prov finals, losers get back door to Last 12;
4) Top 2 in lower groups play for 4 Last 12 places;
5) 4 prov champs get byes go AI SFs as now.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2602 - 23/11/2014 18:16:53    1674384