ormondbannerman, I think that when we project a plan, we generally think of best case scenarios rather than worst case. I look at both, and perhaps I am being a bit too negative. I wonder how many people would watch or travel to croke park to see dublin v sligo, or leitrim. Or clare for that mater. Hardly any dubs for a start would. and hardly any of your fellow county gaa supporters would either. At least with a provincial sytem, the imagination is fired up to have a chance of progressing within the province. This in my head is the only hope that the competition has of maintaining interest in the early stages of the summer. I know that many other counties are at a loss within their respective provinces, but there is a chance that for instance, leitrim, roscommon or sligo can get to a provincial decider. AS is the case in ulster. 8 of the 9 counties got to the final in the last 7 seasons. Fermanagh actually drew with armagh, so there are successes within the ulster competition despite the perceived lack of quality of the football on display. Similarly longford, wexford, westmeath and laois, even louth on a good day can get to a provincial semi and compete well with the big guns. The elephant in the room remains the munster championship, it is so difficult to see how you could transform it. Part of the problem down there is that it competes with the best hurling province in the country which throws up great matches, and then you try and get the likes of tipp, clare, waterford and limerick to get their act together for the football, it is a big ask especially with the issue of dual players. I also would point the finger at cork who when they travel to killarney, very often dont go all out to win. Of course the reverse is the case with kerry who when they travel to cork do give it the big one.

Still at a loss as to how any of us could rejig the competition. but one thing is for sure, if there was a danger of gates being lost, the gaa would fall very heavily on the traditional side of the provincial fence.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 25/10/2014 17:20:19    1667118

Leave the championship structure alone..sure hasn't it served us well..wink wink

ky4sam2014 (Kerry) - Posts: 32 - 25/10/2014 17:55:37    1667123

Sure the newly introduced A and B sides of the championship is enough change for the next decade. As always despite the endless discussion, there's not a hint of a motion to congress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 25/10/2014 19:16:18    1667152

We could lopside the A and B sides of the draw in favour of Lein/ Uls to offset the prov imbalance.
Example, put LeinUls 12-team non-sflists n A and MunsConn 8-team on finalists in B.
LeinUls plays one round to get 6 teams, but MunsConn plays twp rounds to get 2 teams - these ciuld be the 8 teams In current Qual Rd 3.
So instead of the champs playoff for MunsConn at the business end, the weakest counties from these provs could play the extra round.
I can't wait for Dr No, No, NO.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 26/10/2014 15:50:25    1667293

Whatever the format - there is one aspect that needs to be considered and that is to understand how you make seeding work for the overall benefit of the championship.....and not in the silly soccer context which can ruin competitions by trying to ensure the big "tv market" teams get through. The model should be more like the NFL in the US.....tougher for the higher ranked teams).

Objective - competitive and meaningful matches throughout. For example.....

(Make the assumption we have an agreed ranking system not important right now)

Teams ranked 1-16 in 4 groups of 4 - Group A, Group B, Group C, Group D.
Completely open draw among those 16 teams.
The two higher ranked teams in a group, get 1 home match; the two lower ranked teams get 2 home matches
Top two teams go through to play-offs (8 teams)

Teams ranked 17-32-16 in 4 groups of 4 - Group E, Group F, Group G, Group H.
Aggain,Completely open draw among those 16 teams.
The two higher ranked teams in a group, get 1 home match; the two lower ranked teams get 2 home matches
The top team goes through to play-offs (4 teams)

12 from 32 teams is about the right ratio for teams to make the business stage of a championship while still ensuring there are lots of crucial matches from early on.

Play-offs :- Winners of Groups E-H play runners-up of Groups A-D. The winners of these matches play the Group A-D winners in the QFs.

Very few mismatches, and easy to gausge progress etc etc.

Solo Run (None) - Posts: 316 - 28/10/2014 20:15:15    1667893

Solo Run

I like the format on the provision that the four teams who progress to the last 12 from the lower ranked draw are not allowed back into that draw the following year.

Add in the provincial championships to decide the rankings, reduce the number of league matches to allow room for club matches and hew presto we have a solution everyone can swallow. Run it for two years and we can always go back if it doesn't work out.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 29/10/2014 08:58:30    1667942

To Shaggykev -
I like your idea if we go to a league based Championship. However, I'd make a few tweaks. Each prov consists of 2x4, with an upper and lower group ( Muns and Conn lower group include Carlow, Laois, Longford, Wesrmeath).
Each team plays 4 home games (v Other prov of same grade) and 4 away games (v Other 2nd prov of same grade).
Top 2 from the 4 Upper groups to Prov Finals; Top 1 from 4 Lower groups to AI Playoffs; & 4 Wild Cards.
One-Up / One Down in the Provs ifor the following year.
Inter prov matchups based on rotation basis.
Option - In lieu of one 4 game set v one of Other provs, play a double round against own group teams (6 games).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 01/11/2014 15:49:34    1668848

What about a system whereby the strongest counties, ie provincial champions and runners up from previous year, automatically play in the preliminary round the following year? The American football association does something similar with awarding the poorest teams the most revenue the following year to ensure that there is an interesting competition.

This would mean that monaghan and donegal meet next year in the prelim round, dublin and meath, kerry and cork and finally mayo and galway.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 01/11/2014 16:44:02    1668860

Does anyone else here find omahants structures totally convoluted and confusing. I haven't been able to follow a single format he comes up with.

World cup format group a-d are teams from northern 16 group e-h teams from the southern 16 to avoid massive journeys early in the championship.
Use division 1 to provide the top seeds for each group then open draw from there.
It'll still be lop-sided with the weakest counties mostly staying down south but will stop the farce of next years championship where donegal have division 1 the whole way through ulster

iwantwhiteboots (Donegal) - Posts: 4 - 13/11/2014 18:44:11    1672100

You ignoring the elephant in the room. 16 of the 32 counties have no business in a revampted all Ireland. If you are proposing change change it for the better. A new format with 32 teams is a dead duck. No one wants to see Dublin play Limerick/Fermanagh in an open draw format.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 14/11/2014 12:40:50    1672212

Prov championships played as usual (no change).
4 prov prelim rd losers join all 12 from Muns anc Conn in Qual Rd 1.
8 winners to Rd 2.
4 Rd 2 winners join all 20 from Lein and Uls in 24 team Rd 3.
12 Rd 3 winners join 4 prov champs in 16 team AI Series.
If prov champs qualify from both streams, they get bye to AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2603 - 15/11/2014 16:26:15    1672475

RTÉ call time to shut football's back door:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/football/2014/1114/659578-column-time-to-shut-footballs-back-door/

I've mused over provincial groups as well. 1 in both Munster and Connaught. 2 in both Leinster and Ulster+London. Some suggest however it'll result in more hammerings for certain counties. My suggestion from the groups to All-Ireland series was for the provincial runners-up to play-off against the Leinster and Ulster semi-finalists. The winners then advancing to the quarter-finals, joining the provincial champions.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 15/11/2014 17:54:39    1672501

legendzxix

I think it's a pretty flawed article because it leans heavily in favour of retaining the totally unbalanced provincials when unfortunately they've run their course at this stage. The other major disappointment for me is that it tears down the Champions League format like it's the only other show in town, completely ignoring the World Cup format which would be a far better option than the CL format and the one the column suggests.

[i"]The GAA Director General, in an interview with RTÉ some years ago, said this: "It is not a realistic ambition for every county to win the All-Ireland. It is, however, a realistic ambition for every county to win a provincial title and for that reason in my view they should stay."

"That is a noble and perfectly reasonable standpoint, and remain they should, but: in what format?"

That is a noble and perfectly reasonable standpoint, and remain they should, but: in what format?"

Then for Rory O'Neill (who wrote the article) to call it perfectly reasonable??? He's either completely biased or he's done very little research, there are no other possibilities because here's how the provincials look when you do a simple Google search:

Munster = Kerry and Cork have won 90% of the provincial titles (113/126), all of them since 1993 and Limerick and Waterford haven't won it since the 1890s.

Connacht = Mayo and Galway have won 78% of the titles (90/116) whereas Sligo and Leitrim have won just 5 titles between them.

Leinster = Dublin and Meath have won 58% of the titles (74/127) but there are 12 teams, 11 regulars, in the last 32 seasons only 5 titles (among 4 teams) haven't went their way and only 3 titles are shared between Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow (who've never won it and haven't been finalists since 1897).

Ulster = Undoubtedly the most competitive, with only Cavan having a sustained period of dominance for the first 60 years but still, teams have to periodically endure long barren spells, Down, Derry and Cavan haven't won it since the 90s, Antrim haven't won it since the 50s and Fermanagh have never won it.

So basically how can you say that it's "a realistic ambition for every county to win a provincial title" given those stats and expect to be taken seriously.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 16/11/2014 10:26:05    1672571

lots of rubbish being written against the open draw....it would be a breath of fresh air and it would unite the country

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1669 - 16/11/2014 14:50:31    1672597

An open draw is fine. Issue is, it'll be the main competition. Teams will want at least 2 games.

Christy Ring Championship: 8 teams.
Round 1 - 8 teams
Round 2A - 4 Round 1 winners
Round 2B - 4 Round 1 losers
Round 3 - 2 Round 2A losers against 2 Round 2B winners.
Semi-finals - 2 Round 2A winners against 2 Round 3 winners.
Final.

For an open 32 draw to adopt the same double elimination format you are looking at:
Round 1 - 32 teams
Round 2A - 16 Round 1 winners
Round 2B - 16 Round 1 losers
Round 3 - 8 Round 2A losers against 8 Round 2B winners
Round 4 - 8 Round 2A winners against 8 Round 3 winners
Quarter-finals
Semi-finals
Final

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 16/11/2014 15:36:44    1672603

Open draw is fine if it is limited to a top 16 (world cup style format) with a separate competition for the bottom 16. Top team in bottom 16 gets a spot in top 16 quarter finals.

Keep all teams interested and gives all a hope of winning something. Keep provincial championships (seeded based on league performance) to decide the top 16/bottom 16 split.

Max 4 provincial matches (ulster teams) and 6 all Ireland series matches. Reduce league groups to 6 and only then 17 matches are required a year for the most successful counties (assuming we abolish pre season competitions)

The least successful county plays 7 league (8 team div 5), 1 provincial, 3 all Ireland series, total of 11.
If the bottom 16 uses a champions league format then the least successful counties are guaranteed 14 matches.

Donegal had to play 7 league, 4 ulster and 3 all Ireland series matches to win in 2012. 15 + 3 McKenna Cup matches
Kerry had to play 7 league, 2 munster and 3 all irealand series matches this year. 12 + 4 McGrath cup matches
Carlow played 7 league, 1 leinster and 1 qualifier this year. 9 + 3 O Byrne cup matches

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 17/11/2014 11:46:58    1672775

An all ireland competition taking precedent from provincial systems would be a damn interesting experiment, it might not work but it could be worth a try for a few years.

I would not be too put out if things were to remain the same, but I would like a situation where clubs are given some priority. There is utterly no point in continuing the competition if they are not let run their fixtures. I would concede that smaller counties have absolutely no hope of competing if there is not 100% commitment given to the county, so there is a massive challenge to be squared away.

Numbers of games is becoming untenable for amateurs, both in terms of time and in terms of personal injury. I think that there must be some balance reached on this front as well.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 17/11/2014 13:23:36    1672817

How about limiting county players to 15 intercounty matches per year and 20 club and all players to 35.

52 weeks, give 4 months off per year. I's say that's not enough games. Limit all players to 40 matches per year. Stops players getting over played and gives other players a chance.

When I played, I would take a game every week rather than spending a Sunday running up and down sand dunes.

If you structure the season, then players get breaks.

Jan - preseason
Feb-April - leagues
April/May Provincial Championships
June - Club Championships (if you get knocked out early you can head away for summer to work)
July/August - All Ireland Series (club players might even get holidays in here somewhere)
Sept-Nov - Club championships (club players back from Holidays for serious stuff)
Dec - Offseason

All matches extra time, no staggering of intercounty fixtures. Stagger hurling in the opposite way so you have intercounty hurling championships in June, August and September so we have televised intercounty sport from February to September to keep the profile high.

It can all be done easy enough.

52 weekends in the year.
4 for preseason
4 for off season
17 intercounty
27 left for club
limit players to 35 and you have 9 weeks off through the season.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 17/11/2014 14:07:16    1672831

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 212

1672831
How about limiting county players to 15 intercounty matches per year and 20 club and all players to 35.

52 weeks, give 4 months off per year. I's say that's not enough games. Limit all players to 40 matches per year. Stops players getting over played and gives other players a chance.

Correct, it is a hell of a lot to ask of an amateur player. With the amount of money now in the game, there should be at least mandatory health insurance provided for the players for life, as a perk for their time and effort. It could be picked up by the sponsors quite easily.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 17/11/2014 16:49:43    1672902

As always, it's unlikely we'll see change without motions at congress. I really should know better than to get involved in this discussion further:

The All-Ireland Championship could be competed for by 24 counties in 6 provincial groups of 4 and 8 counties in 2 Tommy Murphy Cup groups of 4:

Munster: Kerry, Cork, Tipperary & Clare.

Connaught: Mayo, Galway, Roscommon & Sligo.

Leinster Group A: Dublin, Wexford, Westmeath & Offaly.
Leinster Group B: Meath, Kildare, Laois & Louth.

Ulster Group A: Donegal, Tyrone, Derry & Fermanagh.
Ulster Group B: Monaghan, Armagh, Down & Cavan.

Tommy Murphy Cup Group A: Waterford, Leitrim, Antrim & Wicklow.
Tommy Murphy Cup Group B: Limerick, Longford, Carlow & London.

Have top 2 teams in Munster and Connaught advance to provincial finals.
Have top 2 teams in Leinster and Ulster advance to provincial semi-finals.

For the All-Ireland Series:
Round 1: 6 third places teams play-off.
Round 2: 4 provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster drawn against 3 Round 1 winners and Tommy Murphy Cup winner.
Round 3: Provincial runners-up drawn against 4 Round 2 winners.
Quarter-finals onwards then as normal.

For people suggesting World Cup format of 32. There is not a whole lot wrong with it. One thing I would suggest for that is that the groups are kept the same for two years in-a-row. Say for argument sakes there's a group of Monaghan, Wexford, Roscommon and Clare. A team can have two home games one year and one the next year or vice-versa. A table for all groups could be tabulated over the two year period and this could be used to seed teams in 4 pots for the next draw. If groups of 4 were to be brought in, time will be found by simply taking games from the league and using those freed up weekends for a group stage instead. Based on some of the FRC findings however, it's unlikely a solution away from the provincial set-up can be found.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7857 - 17/11/2014 21:49:14    1672952