Curlew66....

I wasn't giving a direct quote. After the AI Final he came out with talk of energy levels etc that for me was an excuse because he was outthought tactically. I have no Jim McGuinness obsession!

Just after Donegal beat Dublin he was hailed as some kind of zen-like tactical master. And against Kerry he was shown up.

The semi-final loss for Dublin could be attributed to Dublin not showing up, but that's just not true. Dublin lost the semi final because they allowed Cooper wander too far forward, that created space in behind the midfield that Donegal exploited.

Interestingly St. Oliver Plunketts/Eoghan Rua tried similar tactics to Donegal in the Dublin county final last night. Ger Brennan didn't try pick anybody up, he just stayed home behind his midfield and mopped up. This also prevented Plunketts running through central channels. This also meant Vincents had men over in defence and got out of defence quite easily. Brennan looked the best player on the pitch. Always had time on the ball and defended well (I am not a Vincents supporter). In the end the scoreline flattered Plunketts as Vincents were on top most of the game and were tactically spot on.

My point is that McGuinness didn't change anything in the Final. Kerry were on top and he kept playing the same way. Jim Gavin tried change things at the end of the semi. Too little too late. If McGuinness was as tactically aware as we all keep getting told why couldn't he change things up and put Kerry on the back foot.

I think McGuinness done a fine job with Donegal, but he has got it tactically wrong on a few occasions which is why I find all the talk of him being the greatest manager ever a little strange.

There seems to be a willingness to leave Jim McG without scrutiny.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 28/10/2014 12:23:08    1667704

The Dublin game provided the perfect gameplan for Fitzmaurice and Kerry of exactly what not to do when playing Donegal. It was like Dublin were trying to give a perfect example of what not to do when playing Donegal - I'm surprised the Kerry lads didnt thank Jim and his backroom team when picking up Sam.

The fact that Dublin gave McHugh the freedom of the pitch to score 2-2 whereas Kerry had a man-marker on him who completely shut him down to the extent that he was subbed off shows that Kerry learned their lesson well.

No offence to Antrim, but the fact that Dublin conceeded a point more than Antrim to Donegal in the championship just shows how goddam-awful a defensive performance it was by Dublin.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 28/10/2014 13:06:28    1667724

Time to move on lads.... Kerry won the AI and good luck to them...

Both teams could have played better in the final, Kerry did not play near their best, nor did we..... This is the thing that hurts JIM and most of Donegal..... He has often stated that if he can get a performance from his team then he can always make peace with the result....... This probably explains these comments that so many on here are always quick to jump on when it comes to JMG, Kerry can make peace with the result because they won even though it was not in their top 2 best performances of the season.....

Just wondering what manager over the next few years will get all the scrutiny that Jim has got over the last few years..........

ben1977 (Donegal) - Posts: 364 - 28/10/2014 13:26:19    1667737

Japy
What we must say about JMcG ishe was a great manager. You name me a man who could have got an All Irl out of that squad of players. Do you remember the beatings that squad got v against Cork and Armagh by wide margins Most of them suffered defeat to Antrim in Ballybofey in the first round of the championship ( was it 2009) ? If you check the team that won the Div I title in 2007 most of the 2012 boys played. Fast track to 2012 ::: no team in the country could have beaten them. In my book they beat a lot better Kerry team than in this year's final.
JMcG probably got it wrong in the final to a small extent, yet he more or less used what worked all year and it had been successful. I think he could have started P McBrearty or brought him in earlier but let's face it that goal hanged the game , gave Kerrythe cushion of a lead which was vital. Just before the game think how it was going, I'd say the two teams had only scored about three points in the first 15 minutes of the second half To me luck played a big part, fair enough RMcH was well marked but looked what happened to the twin towers in 2008. So these thing happen in games and especially in Finals.
If Kerry had to have lost how would EF have come out of it ??
To me if JMG had been in charge of DUBLIN since 2011 they would have win the last four All Irelands.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 28/10/2014 13:43:29    1667744

JAYP
With all this talk about JMcG what about JIM Galvin then I remember reading an article in which he stated that ::::: he had the most intelligent group of players going,, he had no need to tell them anything through a game ;; they were able to think through it themselves, to put it right in other words and well able to handle blanket defence etc.
now what would you say to that after the Donegal game. ? Before we played DUBLIN I remember reading Liam Hayes in the IDM , he more or less said JG was talking intelligent rubbish. Also LH thought Donegal had more leaders than DUBLIN.
When we all look back on most of our posts over the year I think a lot of us got it well wrong on the various discussions and posts we had But I will conclude with the opinion that JMcG probably knew Donegal were good enough to win the All Ireland but on the day it just did not happen And not because Kerry were that much better or that they played better but they got the breaks a team needs to win a close , tight game

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 28/10/2014 14:23:50    1667762

SamOnErrigal....

I never quite believed the "this group can find their own solutions" talk from Jim Gavin. I believe Dublin have an infinitely better squad and individuals than Donegal. I think Jim Gavin was tactically naïve setting Dublin up without someone sweeping up behind the midfield. There was nobody in to stop runners as Johnny Cooper had gone AWOL. Gavin reacted to this in the last five or six minutes of the game, when the horse had already bolted.

I think letting players find solutions is fine, but you also have to defend and see where danger might occur. As mentioned in my previous post, Ger Brennan was badly missed as he would have done his primary role as a centre half back way better than Johnny Cooper, because that is Brennans position. That being said Cooper is an excellent corner back.

Gavin got it badly wrong, and even if the decision to follow his man up the pitch was a decision taken by Cooper, Gavin didn't stop him doing it after the first goal. He also had players to play that position who would have been more natural centre half backs. Cian O'Sullivan is the obvious choice. James McCarthy can play there also. Gavin left Cooper in and he was ineffective and Donegal punished Dublin for leaving so much space in behind their midfield.

So you asked where my scrutiny is of Gavin. There it is!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 28/10/2014 15:15:09    1667794

Sam....

If Jim McGuinness had been in charge of Dublin since 2011 there is no guarantee Dublin would have won anything. To me the Dublin job is the toughest in the GAA. Lets be honest, everyone outside Dublin wants you to fail. You cant just play dour football as the fans don't wanna see it, and will be extremely vocal about it, the GAA cant market dour and the media will slate you for it. If Dublin were to play like Donegal, and lost a game, McGuinness would have got his marching orders quite quickly.

What we do know is Jim Gavin has one 3/4 of the national competitions over the last two years. Not a bad return to be honest. Yet still he deserves criticism for the semi final loss to Donegal.

I just want to give you the analogy of Moyes going to Man Utd. That's what taking the Dublin job must be like. Everybody hates your team and wants you to fail except your fans, who have unrealistic expectations in many ways of what you should be achieving. You should win because you are Dublin? Different kinda pressure than you have with an overachieving team with low expectations to begin with.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 28/10/2014 15:32:13    1667797

Donegal were hoping to get the start Kerry got to implement their
game plan but once they were on the back foot and Kerry kept them
on the back foot all day Mcguinness had no plan B but to say Donegal
did not show up on the day is nothing but an insult to Kerry.
Kerry tactics worked a dream they took ODonoghue and star out of the
square left Geaney on his own Donegal were very lucky that Geaney
did not get a second goal ive never seen the Donegal back line been
so vunerable in the last 4 years as they were that day if Kerry were
a bit more accurate with there shooting and they werent presure shots
they would have beat Donegal out the gate.

wfkerry (USA) - Posts: 933 - 28/10/2014 15:52:41    1667803

wfkerry .....

You haven't seen Donegals back line that vulnerable in four years......

Mayo in the quarter final 2013???

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 28/10/2014 16:13:06    1667813

ben77 I couldnt have put it better myself. I would also say that the great thing about football and sport in general, is that there is always a next year or the year after to prove an argument, there is no point in going back in time, as it is impossible.

For the very last time, I congratulate kerry unconditionally, and wish JMG all the best for the future. As for Donegal, I hope we achieve more over time, but the lads deserve a break.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 28/10/2014 18:11:13    1667850

Wfkerry..

At no stage did JMcG say that Donegal "didnt turn up" or "insult" the Kingdom

This entire thread is based on your misquote or attempting to put your slant on post match interviews.

Time to enjoy your victory instead of second guessing the beaten opposition .. its not the Kerry way.

Cheers !

Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 507 - 28/10/2014 18:15:07    1667851

Wfkerry......

Your beginning to look silly man with these comments, yous won, fair play but don't be running around now looking for the whole country to pat yous on the back especially the manager of the opposition.......... You wouldn't be hearing to many compliments coming from the kingdom when Tyrone had their Indian sign over yous in the 2000's.... The fundemental issue here is that you are also misquoting the man........

ben1977 (Donegal) - Posts: 364 - 28/10/2014 19:45:23    1667885

The bottom line about the final is that both teams played bad but to say JMcG insulted Kerry afterwards by his TV statement is utter daft.
To me Donegal seemed flat , even though if you look back at the first half and Donegal were in control for long periods. That is why I think the first goal had a big bearing on the game, without it Kerry could have been chasing the game which would have suited Donegal
As regards no plan B , well against Armagh Donegal never changed their plan , even when they conceded the goal still stuck to their defensive duties and finally got the scores to win. More or less the same happened in the Ulster final. And again Donegal were not far off getting a draw in the All Ireland final ( CMcFadden's effort off the post. ) so Wkerry I say luck was on your side, not everyday you wil get a present of a goal like Kerry got that day and without it who would have win?
One thing I can tell you is when TYRONE had the Indian sign over Kerry it did not go down well, as a matter of fact I never saw a county so obsessed about another as Kerry were about TYRONE. I met Kerry people at Cheltenham races in 2009------- all they wanted was another crack at TYRONE
JIM MC GUINNESS is entitled to say what he said, most Donegal knows We did not play well and when I came back to London most neutrals more or less said Donegal threw the game over the Goalkeepers mistake. But that was the general opinion of a lot of people.

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 29/10/2014 09:11:34    1667945

Sam on
You could say Donegal were lucky against Dublin
they got 3 soft goals you could say Dublin did
not show up as Mcguinness has said you make your
own luck for Kerrys second goal Star was sharp
as a tack like a fox watching a chicken and the
person minding the chickens let the fox in all i
hear from Donegal excuses on why they lost when
we lost to Tyrone we never made excuses they were
better than us on the day end of story

wfkerry (USA) - Posts: 933 - 29/10/2014 11:30:31    1667985

Wfkerry

Read the posts man, and listen to his interview again, everybody admits that Kerry were better on the day..... Donegal did not play to the intensity that we all hoped for, if you think that is disrespecting yous then so be it........ As I will say yet again, yous have Sam, what more do you want but don't be running around now looking to be lauded from the heavens for that.....

ben1977 (Donegal) - Posts: 364 - 29/10/2014 14:18:19    1668049