Donegal and McGuinness are probably very fortunate that Kerry had a complete disaster of a day in terms of shooting for points.

Kerry had 23 attempts at points and converted 4 of them.

Throw in the Geaney point that should have been a goal and the bouncing ball that Durkan missed and went inches wide and on another day Donegal could have ended up with a much uglier looking scoreboard.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 22/10/2014 09:21:52    1666014

besidetheditch
County: Dublin
Posts: 23

1666014
Donegal and McGuinness are probably very fortunate that Kerry had a complete disaster of a day in terms of shooting for points.

Kerry had 23 attempts at points and converted 4 of them.

Throw in the Geaney point that should have been a goal and the bouncing ball that Durkan missed and went inches wide and on another day Donegal could have ended up with a much uglier looking scoreboard.

Disagree with this.

We could say the same thing about the Dublin game, and they even took most of their chances, but it panned out a different way. Likewise the Derry game, in the first round. They had a lot of first half chances and didnt take them, its not as easy as it looks from the stand to penertrate, or to get into a composed scoring position when you are faced with the blanket defense.

We actually were sitting perfectly at half time, and didnt push on. We looked in a better position to take kerry than we did v kerry, or even monaghan. The only game that we looked like we were badly struggling in was the armagh game. We had a good position and couldnt get the better of kerry, again, it is to their credit that they were able to push on and win it. No complaints.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/10/2014 11:02:04    1666044

Kerry beat Donegal because Kerry were patient. Fitzmaurices tactics were faultless. If you try and beat Donegal in a 10 minute period of a game it just won't happen. Teams have tp stay with them and take every score that presents itself. The Dubs at two vital stages in the game against Donegal went for goals when two more points might have been enough to have seen them off. They missed the goals and Donegal got a sniff and never looked back. It was a real lack of composure by the Dublin team and Jim Gavin has to learn from this. Any team that gets to the last 15 mins of a game against Donegal and needs a goal to beat them are kidding themselves. Fitzmaurice showed experience way beyond his years in the final. He out foxed McGuiness and its as simple as that.

JohnMitchel (Dublin) - Posts: 178 - 22/10/2014 14:20:05    1666120

Jim did say Kerry was the best team on the day, i would like to wish Jim mc guinness all the best for the future, a great guy, owes nothing to Donegal, we will see Jim back again, that i am sure,

mchugh11 (Donegal) - Posts: 242 - 25/10/2014 11:48:50    1667054

JohnMitchel very good post man.

I watched Jims interview and I thought he spoke really well. I think that Jim is struggling to come up with why they lost because he believes that the system is unbeatable when done correctly.
Yet Eamon showed you could beat this system and I don't think Jim can get his head around this.

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 25/10/2014 14:01:24    1667084

westkerry
County: Kerry
Posts: 452



I watched Jims interview and I thought he spoke really well. I think that Jim is struggling to come up with why they lost because he believes that the system is unbeatable when done correctly.
Yet Eamon showed you could beat this system and I don't think Jim can get his head around this.

Indeed, I would say he was taken aback a bit on the day, but it is not the first time we lost using the system. Remember 2011 when the system was used to the absolute brink against dublin, and they still beat us with 14 men. Who could forget 2013. Beaten twice, hammered by mayo and well beaten by a mediocre monaghan team. And we got relegated by dublin last year when we drew at home, we did not close out the game in ballybofey. It does happen, as it is sport. I also think that Eamon Fitzmaurice will grow from this year. I listened to him yesterday afternoon on the radio, and he is one cool operator. The celebrations are finished for him already, he is a very balanced guy and seems to be exceptionally clear about where he is going and what he is doing.

The specifics of McGuinness interview center around his response about 'i dont know' when it was put to him why donegal were beaten.. It will be interesting to see in the years to come if he has anything else to add about the final this year. 2015 is motoring ever closer now, and I would say that he and the team have defo moved on from the bad feeling of losing a final.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 25/10/2014 16:32:18    1667111

Donegalman, in 2011 ye were just starting out and Jim hadnt introduced an attacking element to "system", and in 2013 ye were a shell of the team that won the all Ireland.
Id say that this years all ireland was the first time under McGuinness "system" that ye were beaten where ye could have no excuses.
Thats a compliment by the way.

joncarter (Galway) - Posts: 2692 - 25/10/2014 16:50:51    1667114

yes possibly true about 2011 jcarter, but I would say that there was real shock after we were relegated in 2013, as well as losing the ulster final last year too, even if we were not firing on all cylinders, there was real shock within the ranks that we were taken apart by monaghan. I think that the hammering we got from mayo still ranks as the lowest point of our time under mcguinness, and although I am sure there was a lot of apprehension going into that game, we thought we had a chance of winning it - no doubt.

Re this years final, I think the shock was not that we were beaten on the day, but that we didnt get going the way we could. This of course is down to kerry as much as it is down to what our lads did or didnt do too. You could be very right about the fact that it has been the first team to actually get donegal on a proverbial level playing field, re injuries, games played, form etc. and win.

I wonder will we see other teams do what kerry did in the final and adopt to play the same way or similarly? All the ulster teams we played this year did, dublin were the only team to play open football, and they were well beaten despite looking like thrashing us in the first 20 odd minutes. There is an interesting argument here that the dubs could well be a very different animal to what we are used to seeing next year. There could be a lot more stud marks at one end of their training pitch methinks.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 25/10/2014 17:09:31    1667116

First team to get donegal on a level playihg field taking 2011 out of the equation, we even had cassidy then!

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 25/10/2014 18:02:24    1667125

You could be right Donegalman and if it does transpire that this is the case it will be to the detriment of the game as a spectacle I think.I would hate to see Dublin having to play a style of football that they have done so much to try to avoid.
Kerry for all their so called natural footballers and flair for open football had to concede and play to the style dictated by Donegal.I know other teams have defensive set ups too but Mc Guiness's legacy for all the positives he brought to Donegal is that now teams may well have to forego flair for a more dour approach.If this sounds like an attack on Donegal in general it is most definitely not intended as you have done what was necessary with your resources to get the results and that has to be admired.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 25/10/2014 18:19:02    1667129

Westkerry….I think you are off the mark there. McGuinness knew his system could be beat. It has been done before by us. When Mayo beat them in 2013 they were dead on their feet. They weren't at their best in 2013's championship but the ulster final loss really hurt….nobody expected it. I know I didn't! A transitional Armagh should have beaten Donegal too in the QFs. Lack of experience and confidence cost them. Kerry this year were the enigma, nobody could tell how they would play before the game. EF did his homework on every opposition and tactically went toe to toe with each one. I think the only mistake JMcG made was underestimating them. Donegal were well capable of winning but I think Jim thought the heavy lifting was in beating the dubs.

Donegalman….Beaten by a 'mediocre' Monaghan team? Hardly. Beaten by a good Monaghan team more like it. Beaten by them again in the league final this year. We are a good side, not brilliant but good. Back to back Ulster final appearances, all Ireland QFs and successive promotions in the league should tell you that. 2013 was shaping up nicely for ye until the Ulster final, there wasn't a single Donegal person in Clones who thought Monaghan would come close …..

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 25/10/2014 18:40:56    1667138

seanfinn, I am only comparing monaghan to teams that are out there over the past few years. Many could have said that donegal were an awful team in 2013, and I would accept this 100% all things being equal. But monaghan qualified for an ulster final by beating a very poor antrim team and then beating cavan at home. A game that could have gone either way imo. Yes monaghan did deserve an ulster for their perseverance and effort, but I really couldnt get excited by them even in the quarter finals against tyrone. I think they were very average compared to strong teams out there that we all have seen in the last few years. Yes you did beat us in the division 2 final, but really it is not something that donegal would be lying awake at night over. Maybe monaghan will go up a gear or 2 next year?

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 26/10/2014 11:58:01    1667259

I think people are letting McGuinness away with it a bit. To say they didn't show up is insulting to Kerry.

In that case Dublin didn't show up against Donegal?

Kerry beat Donegal as they were better against them on the day.

To win Sam you have to get it right on the day, if you don't you sound like you are making excuses.

Kerry won, everyone else is in the chasing pack!

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 26/10/2014 15:56:53    1667294

Had to break this into 2 parts ; Was watching the games on TG4 and got a bit talkative

People talking about Kerry playing ultra-defensively in the final really need to watch the final back again - when I watched it back I was surprised at how non-blanket the Kerry performance was - all the talk and writing I've read since the final seems to be about Kerry adopting Donegal type tactics which when you watch the match back it's clear wasn't the case at all. The over-riding thing that becomes clear watching the game back was Kerry's woeful shooting - I'd nearly go as a far as to say it was the worst display of shooting in the entire championship this year (Sligo's first-half performance against Cork was the closest but that was only the first half and all respect to Sligo, Kerry are normally pretty decent at shooting)

I stuck this YouTube link in my favourites and have been wathcing it back 10/15 minutes at a time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sGbwe1m7jkQ#t=3760

A huge chunk of the talk about Kerry playing poorly simply has to be as as a result of Kerry's poor shooting ; they did everything else very well and as I said earlier if they had kicked like they normally do they could easily ended up winding by a ten point plus margin as opposed to falling over the line with their 3 point margin. If Kerry had lost or even drawn, this would be regarded for ever after as the game Kerry kicked away. Seriously the Kerry kicking is barely believable watching it back it's so bad.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 26/10/2014 17:20:29    1667312

Part 2

I think because Kerry didnt use Dublin's approach in the semi of zero defending whatsoever people are thinking that Kerry played the blanket in the final. People are mistaking the fact that Kerry did on occasion actually defend as adopting a Donegal blanket approach. I think a lot of people were comparing Kerry's defending in the final with Dublin's "defending" in the semi and when you compare the two, Dublin's non attempt at defending in the semi makes any defending whatsoever looks like the blanket. However the issue is that this says more about how bad/poor/crazy Dublin's approach was as opposed to saying anything insightful about Kerry's approach.

As a starting point look at the the contant pressure that Durkan was put under in terms of his kickouts - it wasnt an accident that Donaghy was so close to goals when Durkan messed up his kickout ; the Kerry forwards were constantly putting the Donegal backs under pressure when Donegal took short kickouts and even got a few turnovers from this. In terms of the Kerry defence, Kerry definitely didn't pull back 13 players and flood the area in front of goals all the time. There was a couple of occasions when they did pull back into a defensive shape but overall they were fairly rare. It's very clear watching both teams back that whatever Kerry's approach was it definitely wasnt the Donegal blanket approach they were playing. For me it looked remarkably similar to their approach in both the Mayo games.

Overall watching back a couple of things stood out

1) Kerry's shooting was beyond shocking - I don't think I've ever seen a worse display by a Kerry team in terms of shooting. Some of this was down to Donegal pressure but most of it was down to simply bad shooting - there was a serious number of occasions where Kerry players in space hit what would have to be awful wides.

2) the ref was very fortunate the goal chance at the end didnt go in and the match didnt end up as a draw (the blatant barging by Murphy was a shocking miss) but if it was the case that it had been a draw his performance would have been looked at a lot more closely and he wouldnt have come out of it looking too good - the 10 to 1 free split in the first hard would have looked seriously damming when looked at in forensic detail

3) it would be very interesting to see the number of handpasses v kicks for both teams, especially if the last 5/10 minutes were shown separately, when Kerry were retaining possession and letting the clock wind down in what has almost become an All-Ireland tradition ( I can't help think that some people are using this last 5 minutes as evidence of Kerry playing defensive throughout) Overall Kerry seemed to kick the ball out of defence far more than Donegal who were pretty much constantly handpassing and running the ball out of defence (which cost them a few turnovers and also gave the Kerry defenders more time to get back)

Overall I'd really recommend that people watch the game back - its very interesting to compare the actual game with what a lot of the pundits were saying after.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 26/10/2014 17:21:03    1667313

JayP : think you are getting carried away with your obsession with Jim McGuinness .. he at no stage said that "Donegal didnt turn up" for the final all of 5 weeks ago. Its time to accept that Sam is spending its 37th Winter in the Kingdom and they dont need us justifying how they won it .. its not a question of as you say "letting McGuinness away with it" .. he has congratulated Kerry, retired 3 weeks ago and is now getting on with the rest of his life.

Curlew66 (Roscommon) - Posts: 507 - 26/10/2014 21:03:13    1667361

Well Donegalman….I am not sure how a mediocre qualifies as an adjective for a team proven to be in the top eight sides in the country? I do think we are at the bottom of those eight but there nonetheless. Accepting Donegal as an awful team in 2013 is easy to do now. Did you think that at 15.55 on the 21st of July 2013? I doubt it. I doubt JMcG did either. The look of shock on everyone in clones when that game finished said it all. True we didn't have to face the traditional 'big boys' in Antrim or Cavan, but remember Cavan made it as far as both Monaghan and Donegal in the championship! We were very close to a SF place, naivety, big game experience and fear of Tyrone compounded to see us miss out. I don't think we were the strongest Ulster champions but compared to this year we had to do things the hard way and where did it get us?? We beat Tyrone and Armagh (comprehensively in a replay). Then what…We were favoured to win the final and deservedly lost it. We played Kildare in horrible conditions and were absolutely wrecked come the QF this year. (A team like Monaghan with small resources and a small panel of top class players will always struggle as the season progresses unless you can avoid two things. 1 replays and 2. Injury)

I am not sure how many more gears we have but we are better than how things turned out this year. I would be more concerned about Donegal to be honest. I can remember watching Donegal before the Jimmy and his winning ways, the panel wasn't hugely different from what he won Sam with and that was a side befitting 'mediocre'.

seanfinn (Monaghan) - Posts: 360 - 27/10/2014 15:37:51    1667495

Besisetheditch - That's the best post I've read regarding the final fair play to you.

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 27/10/2014 16:00:29    1667501

Jim McGuinness is gorgeous; he loves Kerry, came down to college here and learnt a few things. After Harte, he is the next manager to really have made a change on the play of our game in recent times. Kerry does what Kerry likes to do and that's win so we adapt, try to be consistently there at the business end and work hard.

Can Kerry play better football...yes..Munster final was a class act and never mind the intensity of Mayo dual.

So both Donegal and Kerry could have played better. The AI was a dour type of game but most of us had an inclination of what was going to happen.

I'm going to miss watching the handsome Jim (George Clooney isn't a match on him) but I will be content enough with Eamon's Kerry in Transition team.

Must go now, Sam is just going past in the back of a back of tractor. Joe Brolly what do ya think of that ;-)

kerrykerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1779 - 27/10/2014 16:15:45    1667504

Westkerry
Well i would not agree with you entirely about EF beating the system;;; would you not agree that mistakes were always likely to beat the system.
We can look at it another way ;; leave aside the goals( which IMO could have been prevented, Donegal lost possession for the first) would you be happy enough with around 9 points as what Kerry scored from the allegedly classy forwards Kerry are supposed to have
Joe Brolly wrote more about JMcG system all year and as he said very little can go wrong except ::: mistakes. Kerry scored 1-1 in the first few minutes, then got 2 points in the next 30 odd minutes
That to me was typical type Donegal game, the only problem we give up a goal in the first minute which never happened in J McG time in charge
Whether that had an effect on Donegal's display I do not know But what I do know is on reading the Kerryman the Friday after the final , the reporter did say ::: nobody knows how the game would have panned out if Durkin had not blundered and Kerry got the second goal.
I would thinkJMcG would know what to expect from Donegal, he would have known where he had them so if he says That the team did not perform ( and they did not) then I'd believe him So there are people on here dismissing his comments, yet they probably know very little about Donegal football or even football in general. Don't forget JMcG is now working with a professional outfit, CELTIC first team , so he did not arrive there if he doesn't know what he is talking about

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 28/10/2014 10:06:33    1667644