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Replying To GaryMc82: "you're forgetting one major stumbling block to that argument. The brit money is secured by SF to be spent in casement with the approval of ulster council who couldn't turn it down. If this falls through then the brit exchequer will benefit from the 65 million squids being returned, as there is no plan b because of the decision by d murphy and co. So all the talk of alternative venues is only hot air and a waste of debate. With SF securing the largest % of the pot from the maze project they were guaranteeing the money being spent in their gerrys heartland.
bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts:42 - 25/10/2016 01:16:55
Your forgetting that this due to the nature of the Six Counties, grants for sporting or community investment must be evenly spread across both sides of the divide. The scare-mongering being spinned that this money will dissapear if the Stadium is not located in Belfast is ridiculous, Sinn Fein are peddling this because they want there name attached to this in West Belfast.
The lack of talk and discussion about alternative options in the run up to this is the very reason I started looking into this project, I was shocked that nothing else was even remotely considered. Essentially Sinn Fein bent over for British money, just so they can later brag about the great Infrastructure they brought to West Belfast and use it as a symbol of the great work they have done during their time in power.
However in reality, this entire project was suggested, funded and controlled by the British Governements sport funding, all so they can have the Rugby World Cup on their doorstep. The wider Ulster GAA community have been completely Ignored here, not even remotely considered. This proposed Stadium will have Ulster GAA written on the door, but that's where the commitment ends." Gary the British exchequer is offering £65million to build a stadium, because the Maze went belly up the funding would have to be in the greater Belfast area. Its not ideal for all gaels in Ulster in much the same way that croke park is not ideal for all gaels in the rest of the country. The saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth is quite apt here.
You are correct that the rugby world cup will have a big influence (As it does with Pairc Ui Caoimh) but the only sensible option is to build something in the greater Belfast area. Ulster rugby had expressed an interest in playing European games there due to the increased capacity so the chances are it could be filled significantly more times than the 1-5 you mention.
Having it in a central area is a pipe dream, not viable due to infrastructure and would be even more of a white elephant than casement may eventually become. You can dismiss this as bias if you like but sooner or later you'll come to the conclusion that casement is happening in one form or another and no amount of howling at the wind will change it.
duckula20 (Antrim) - Posts: 175 - 25/10/2016 15:40:02
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Replying To brendtheredhand: " Replying To bumpernut: "[quote=GaryMc82: "you're forgetting one major stumbling block to that argument. The brit money is secured by SF to be spent in casement with the approval of ulster council who couldn't turn it down. If this falls through then the brit exchequer will benefit from the 65 million squids being returned, as there is no plan b because of the decision by d murphy and co. So all the talk of alternative venues is only hot air and a waste of debate. With SF securing the largest % of the pot from the maze project they were guaranteeing the money being spent in their gerrys heartland.
bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts:42 - 25/10/2016 01:16:55
Your forgetting that this due to the nature of the Six Counties, grants for sporting or community investment must be evenly spread across both sides of the divide. The scare-mongering being spinned that this money will dissapear if the Stadium is not located in Belfast is ridiculous, Sinn Fein are peddling this because they want there name attached to this in West Belfast.
The lack of talk and discussion about alternative options in the run up to this is the very reason I started looking into this project, I was shocked that nothing else was even remotely considered. Essentially Sinn Fein bent over for British money, just so they can later brag about the great Infrastructure they brought to West Belfast and use it as a symbol of the great work they have done during their time in power.
However in reality, this entire project was suggested, funded and controlled by the British Governements sport funding, all so they can have the Rugby World Cup on their doorstep. The wider Ulster GAA community have been completely Ignored here, not even remotely considered. This proposed Stadium will have Ulster GAA written on the door, but that's where the commitment ends." The reality is that its about regenerating the local area economically as well as in GAA terms as I have often stated before. I don't care who paid the money btw, it could have come from Timbuktu for all I care. I would remind you that Andersonstown and West Belfast in general is one of the most deprived areas in the north and why shouldn't the shinners push their agenda there given there is f**k all other investment in it. If it regenerates the area financially, provides jobs for locals as the social clauses will ensure and encourages kids in the surrounding areas to play our games then that's job done imo!"
Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 25/10/2016 16:36:54
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Its not ideal for all gaels in Ulster in much the same way that Croke park is not ideal for all gaels in the rest of the country. The saying about not looking a gift horse in the mouth is quite apt here.
Croke Park is a National Stadium, serving the needs of the entire National game, hosting National Final's, hosting International events and is thus being located in the Capital City from which all roads and rail lines run out from in all directions works. However the proposed Casement project will be a Provincial Stadium, primarily serving the needs of a 9 County Province. Ignoring this fact is what has allowed this project to escalate into the overpriced mess we see today.
Having it in a central area is a pipe dream, not viable due to infrastructure and would be even more of a white elephant than casement may eventually become.
Nonsense, you advocate for a Casement Park project that will require the majority of people attending matches to "Park & Ride", and then say a more central area won't have the infrastructure. The Idea that a more basic stadium with good facilities (Parking, Toilets etc), that costs less than half the price of this Casement Project and would be more viable for far more games every year would equate to a white elephant is laughable.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/10/2016 18:14:33
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I would remind you that Andersonstown and West Belfast in general is one of the most deprived areas in the north and why shouldn't the shinners push their agenda there given there is f**k all other investment in it.
Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts:8253 - 25/10/2016 16:36:54
Why is it so deprived? Is that area not represented by the the largest party on the whole Island, who are power sharing in the North for over 15 years straight? Surely the area received a lot of investment, especially the millions of pounds that have been paid out to Community groups over the last 16 years or so. I mean, that money did reach the ordinary people didn't it?
Maybe the Shinners don't give a rats f**k about that area or it's people, and just want their name attached to a large visual project they can proudly claim/brag they helped build in years to come.
A stadium won't fix West Belfast, only direct government investment will do that. And if it is still one of the most deprived area's in the North, what are the government representatives for the area doing about it? It's not the shinners building this Stadium
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/10/2016 18:25:21
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Well, I suppose if your completely against the whole ides from day one there's very little chance of you changing your mind.
I believe you could have certainly made a similar arguement against redevelopement of Croke Park, Lansdowne/ Aviva or Pairc Ui Caoimh but it's about looking to the future and aspiring to providing 21st century facilities for generations to come.
I have never been against Casement Park getting a facelift, or Antrim having a decent ground. I am against Casement Park being made the Provincial Stadium of Ulster, and for solid well founded reasons that I have highlighted time and time again. This is being touted as a Provincial Stadium, where knowing the GAA, every Ulster Championship game for the next 20 years will be played. There isn't sufficient parking at it, so I will have to use the "Park & Ride" service, which I doubt will be free.
Considering it's the second most populated city on the island I think it is justyfible in having a 34,500 capacity venue. Who will benefit ? well the economy in the local area will undoubtedly benefit in the years that the stadium is being built and will benefit when events are staged there in the future. Anything would be better than what's there at the minute surely.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1032 - 25/10/2016 13:57:18 1928861
As a GAA fan who attends quite a lot of matches every year, be it McKenna Cup, National League and Championship ( Senior & U21), I believe there is a serious lack of both consideration and Understanding of the fans who attend the most games every year. I travel to Clones every year (Even if Derry aren't playing), park out a back road to Fintona/Fivemiletown (Like Joe Brolly and others do), have a drop of tae at the boot of the car with the family and passing friends, then walk into the ground and don't go near town centre at all. Sometimes we bring sandwiches into the ground if down early for a Minor game, but it's great craic and great feeling every year, and something thousands of people from every County does.
If you asked the majority of GAA fans across Ulster what they want from a Provincial Stadium, they would probably say
- better roof coverage,
- better toilets,
- better parking
- Somewhere less out of the way.
But nobody is really asking what they want or need, because they are not part of the conversation, instead it is all about West Belfast and what non-GAA events the Stadium could hold.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/10/2016 19:14:24
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Replying To GaryMc82: "Well, I suppose if your completely against the whole ides from day one there's very little chance of you changing your mind.
I believe you could have certainly made a similar arguement against redevelopement of Croke Park, Lansdowne/ Aviva or Pairc Ui Caoimh but it's about looking to the future and aspiring to providing 21st century facilities for generations to come.
I have never been against Casement Park getting a facelift, or Antrim having a decent ground. I am against Casement Park being made the Provincial Stadium of Ulster, and for solid well founded reasons that I have highlighted time and time again. This is being touted as a Provincial Stadium, where knowing the GAA, every Ulster Championship game for the next 20 years will be played. There isn't sufficient parking at it, so I will have to use the "Park & Ride" service, which I doubt will be free.
Considering it's the second most populated city on the island I think it is justyfible in having a 34,500 capacity venue. Who will benefit ? well the economy in the local area will undoubtedly benefit in the years that the stadium is being built and will benefit when events are staged there in the future. Anything would be better than what's there at the minute surely.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts:1032 - 25/10/2016 13:57:18 1928861
As a GAA fan who attends quite a lot of matches every year, be it McKenna Cup, National League and Championship ( Senior & U21), I believe there is a serious lack of both consideration and Understanding of the fans who attend the most games every year. I travel to Clones every year (Even if Derry aren't playing), park out a back road to Fintona/Fivemiletown (Like Joe Brolly and others do), have a drop of tae at the boot of the car with the family and passing friends, then walk into the ground and don't go near town centre at all. Sometimes we bring sandwiches into the ground if down early for a Minor game, but it's great craic and great feeling every year, and something thousands of people from every County does.
If you asked the majority of GAA fans across Ulster what they want from a Provincial Stadium, they would probably say
- better roof coverage,
- better toilets,
- better parking
- Somewhere less out of the way.
But nobody is really asking what they want or need, because they are not part of the conversation, instead it is all about West Belfast and what non-GAA events the Stadium could hold." I have been to Casement Park only once, for an Ulster c'ship game, and I would have to say it was'nt a pleasant experience. Parking was a nightmare. I was very disappointed at the lack of atmosphere in the ground. I have been to a number of c'ship games in Clones over the years and found it to be a brilliant place for such games. I'll accept that parking is a big problem but the atmosphere in the town and the ground is something special. It would be a pity if Clones lost out on the big games when the new Casement Park is opened
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 25/10/2016 19:41:15
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Fair enough, It does sound like you are very much against the whole idea of travelling to Belfast though and would far prefer to stick with the tae and sandwiches from the boot and the craic of the day in Clones.
I just think it's a positive development in an area that could well do with it.
Of course, as with any move away from the traditional you are going to loose some of that which many would want to hold on to . I know there will undoubtedly be those who feel that it is to the detriment of other counties and that they are being left behind and that is only natural as we know only too well.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 25/10/2016 19:45:29
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Did anyone see Brolly refer to Cork as being Ireland's second city on RTE last week.
tireoghainabu (Tyrone) - Posts: 277 - 25/10/2016 19:48:11
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Replying To Dubh_linn: "Fair enough, It does sound like you are very much against the whole idea of travelling to Belfast though and would far prefer to stick with the tae and sandwiches from the boot and the craic of the day in Clones.
I just think it's a positive development in an area that could well do with it.
Of course, as with any move away from the traditional you are going to loose some of that which many would want to hold on to . I know there will undoubtedly be those who feel that it is to the detriment of other counties and that they are being left behind and that is only natural as we know only too well." For me its about the logic of the thing, not strictly about the distance for me personally.
Issue with Clones
- It's in the extreme south of the Province, take a lot of fans between 1-2 hours to get there.
- Lack of roofed area, fans are exposed to the elements in 3/4 of the ground.
- Toilet facilities are poor at the Pat McGrane side of the pitch.
- Most parking is roadside or in fields surrounding the Ground.
- Issue with Casement
- It's in the extreme east of the Province, takes a lot of fans between 1-2 hours to get there.
- It has a roof that rivals the Munich Olympic stadium, and probably as costs more than Dublin GAA's 10 year games development bill.
- Will probably include toilets and Bidet and some fella selling aftershave, and a Michelin star restaurant.
- Little or No Parking - Fans need to Park & ride.
If you weigh it up properly and carefully look at the purpose of a Provincial Stadium, you will see that they are simply transferring some of the key issues associated with Clones to Casement Park. And paying £77 million stg (€86 million) for the privilege, all so Belfast City can feel good about itself.
Alternative Proposal ?
Why not spend £30 million on Healy Park in Omagh, £5 million on buying and developing additional parking, and £25 million on developing stands & facilities on the Gortin side and both ends. We could easily convert a 25,000 capacity ground into a 34-38,000 Capacity ground.
Give Casement Park a £30 million facelift, giving Antrim GAA a quality County Ground in Belfast City, and divide the remaining £17 million amongst the other County Grounds for upgrades. I know the money is conditional, but just imagine the impact that could have on the game in Ulster.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/10/2016 21:43:51
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Replying To tireoghainabu: "Did anyone see Brolly refer to Cork as being Ireland's second city on RTE last week." I've actually switched to watching Sky or TG4, I kinda got a bit fed up watching them boys.
GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 25/10/2016 21:45:23
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Replying To GaryMc82: "I would remind you that Andersonstown and West Belfast in general is one of the most deprived areas in the north and why shouldn't the shinners push their agenda there given there is f**k all other investment in it.
Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts:8253 - 25/10/2016 16:36:54
Why is it so deprived? Is that area not represented by the the largest party on the whole Island, who are power sharing in the North for over 15 years straight? Surely the area received a lot of investment, especially the millions of pounds that have been paid out to Community groups over the last 16 years or so. I mean, that money did reach the ordinary people didn't it?
Maybe the Shinners don't give a rats f**k about that area or it's people, and just want their name attached to a large visual project they can proudly claim/brag they helped build in years to come.
A stadium won't fix West Belfast, only direct government investment will do that. And if it is still one of the most deprived area's in the North, what are the government representatives for the area doing about it? It's not the shinners building this Stadium" Those aren't my comments Gary, they are Brend's. There seems to be some confusion going on when replying to other posters comments. When you reply to someone else there is no gap with what you post and the comments you are replying to. It's a bit confusing at times and it's hard to differentiate who is posting what. MODS, I think you need to create a gap between comments and clarify who is posting.
Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9706 - 25/10/2016 23:01:50
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Replying To GaryMc82: "For me its about the logic of the thing, not strictly about the distance for me personally.
Issue with Clones
- It's in the extreme south of the Province, take a lot of fans between 1-2 hours to get there.
- Lack of roofed area, fans are exposed to the elements in 3/4 of the ground.
- Toilet facilities are poor at the Pat McGrane side of the pitch.
- Most parking is roadside or in fields surrounding the Ground.
- Issue with Casement
- It's in the extreme east of the Province, takes a lot of fans between 1-2 hours to get there.
- It has a roof that rivals the Munich Olympic stadium, and probably as costs more than Dublin GAA's 10 year games development bill.
- Will probably include toilets and Bidet and some fella selling aftershave, and a Michelin star restaurant.
- Little or No Parking - Fans need to Park & ride.
If you weigh it up properly and carefully look at the purpose of a Provincial Stadium, you will see that they are simply transferring some of the key issues associated with Clones to Casement Park. And paying £77 million stg (€86 million) for the privilege, all so Belfast City can feel good about itself.
Alternative Proposal ?
Why not spend £30 million on Healy Park in Omagh, £5 million on buying and developing additional parking, and £25 million on developing stands & facilities on the Gortin side and both ends. We could easily convert a 25,000 capacity ground into a 34-38,000 Capacity ground.
Give Casement Park a £30 million facelift, giving Antrim GAA a quality County Ground in Belfast City, and divide the remaining £17 million amongst the other County Grounds for upgrades. I know the money is conditional, but just imagine the impact that could have on the game in Ulster." As I mentioned earlier you could probably make logical arguements as to why you shouldn't do a lot of things. As with Croker park and other projects which have gone ahead. If you are against it that's fine but if in years to come it is a success which I believe it will be then that's what really matters.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 26/10/2016 08:29:05
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Gary, how many times must we all do this endless Casement cycle?? You've said everything you've had to say at least 10 times over. As has everyone else on this topic. We are no nearer to agreeing than when this first came about and frankly, it doesn't matter. Why waste any more time on this?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 26/10/2016 09:45:19
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The real issue is gaa snobbery but they won't admit it
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 26/10/2016 10:44:01
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Clones is a long way from the "extreme south of Ulster" lads.
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12123 - 26/10/2016 11:06:59
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Replying To bumpernut: "The real issue is gaa snobbery but they won't admit it" There's a lot to be said for throwing the hands up, climbing up a mountain, make yourself a hut and spending the rest of your days there where you don't have to put up with the advancements in life, society, the world etc etc. Sure as long as you have a cup of tea what else do you need! ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Y7ECbtZJY
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 26/10/2016 11:19:10
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Replying To Breffni39: "Clones is a long way from the "extreme south of Ulster" lads." more northernly is it?
SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 26/10/2016 12:21:41
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Replying To bumpernut: "The real issue is gaa snobbery but they won't admit it" It's not though. Casement needs an upgrade and Antrim need a home but I don't think this has been thought out properly. No one has mentioned the fact that public transport in Northern Ireland is awful. After 6 bells translink stops on a sunday. They do deck all buses on a sunday. The worst bit is I actually think the Maze would be the perfect location for a stadium.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 26/10/2016 12:56:33
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Replying To gotmilk: "It's not though. Casement needs an upgrade and Antrim need a home but I don't think this has been thought out properly. No one has mentioned the fact that public transport in Northern Ireland is awful. After 6 bells translink stops on a sunday. They do deck all buses on a sunday. The worst bit is I actually think the Maze would be the perfect location for a stadium." Yes it is, how dare they send me to West Belfast sure all they do is watch soccer or steal cars
So the world grinds to a halt in Belfast after 6 o'clock does it, next you'll be telling me the roads close at 7 ffs
bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 26/10/2016 13:08:29
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Replying To SaffronDon: "more northernly is it?" Nah, it's just that there is an entire county between Clones and the "extreme south of Ulster"
Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 12123 - 26/10/2016 13:45:03
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