Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 7057

There is NO doubt that Kerry and Cork have a handy draw every season in Munster as seen again this year and they wouldn't have half the titles they did if they played in Ulster.

I really, really hate it when this one comes up, because it's just nonsense and it's foolish. Prior to the 90's, for the most part the Ulster Champions were seen as a bye for the likes of Kerry and Dublin. There were a few exceptions, Down in the 60's, and Cavan before that, but the Ulster champions were generally cannon fodder. That may be an inconvenient truth for some, but an inconvenient truth is still the truth. Kerry would arguably have as many or more All-Irelands, and you have to ask why the rule that applies to Kerry is never applied to Cork - nearly 40 Munster titles, just 7 All-Irelands.

Ulster have turned it around BIG time in the last 20+ years, and FAIR PLAY to them. I actually agree that Kerry did not show the likes of Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal enough respect and did a lot of annoying whingeing. But let's not pretend that 20 years of strength means Ulster was always a force. It really wasn't any more so than Connacht!

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 12/10/2014 21:33:21    1663012

Sam, people who reside away from our country are more patriotic even more so then those who remain on this island and therefore extremely parochial, it retains there identity and subsequently can lead to biased and blinkered viewpoints but you will see this in all counties, this does not excuse same but by and large your average Kerryman is considerate and gracious just as much as those from every other county but success over the years breeds an arrogance, it's an indiscriminate arrogance and not meant to be personal but that is the algorithm of life in all its facets.

mlcollins (Kerry) - Posts: 440 - 12/10/2014 21:38:42    1663017

Historically, the only province Kerry would have definitely won less All-Irelands had they played there would be Leinster, because Dublin would provide the main opposition, and are the only county on a similar planet when it comes to winning titles.

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 12/10/2014 21:38:48    1663018

Kieran Donaghy and James O Donoghue are great footballers, Eamon Fitz is a great manager no doubt but Kerry's name be on the Sam this year was lucky. But it took all of the GAA establishment plus a bit more to deliver it. Playing Mayo in Limerick handed Kerry the iniative. Imagine Kerry playing Tyrone in say Belfast? or Newry? in a semi final.
Anyway the West is on the rise- Mayo and Galway will defeat the "hordes" from the south west. And the Dubs will send them home in defeat!

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2519 - 12/10/2014 21:48:19    1663023

MlCollins; Kerry's position at the top of the tree has been rightly earned and they are still the ones who the rest know they have to beat so you will get no arguement on that in as you say 'Nordieland' (Why do I get the impression you use that as a derogatory term?). Indeed growing up in the 70's and 80's with a lot of other stuff going on around us most Northern Gaels looked up at Kerry in awe. Those of us who played Gaelic football in the North wanted to be like Jack O'Shea, Eoin Listen and YES Pat Spillane as well, they were household names here. Kerry were the kingpins as they beat Ulster teams sniggering and sending us on our way with a 'Yezz are a doing a grand job up there'. Then when the intensity of the conflict waned Ulster sides started to play a bit and win. Down, Derry and Donegal lost a bit of the inferiority complex and got stuck in beating the top sides Meath, Cork and Dublin (Kerry were on their 10 year holiday from 87 - 97). For some reason those sides never made up excuses when Ulster teams beat them and they were largely civil and accepting in defeat. Kerry were a different kettle of fish. You knew how to win and make Ulster teams feel small in the 70's and 80's and you loved every minute of it. Then when Tyrone, Armagh and Down turned the tables on Kerry you couldn't hack it; your condescending arrogance and dismissive attitude wouldn't let you lose humbly and consequently you lost ALL the respect you had in Ulster. That is your legacy the past decade has left on the game and how Kerry is now thought of in Ulster. Not, as you should be, as the greatest football county in Ireland, BUT as bad losers who have left rather a nasty, bitter taste in peoples mouths.

Ulsterman (Antrim) - Posts: 9703 - 12/10/2014 21:51:34    1663027

Ulster man I for one never thought that we were better team on the day in 02 05 and 08. You must have a very narrow view on life, IMO us Kerry folk are hardest on our own team than on others, ask any Kerry player, when we lost against the Dubs in 2011 I felt it was the one All Ireland that we were bad losers but the rest we took on the chin.

kerryrowz (Kerry) - Posts: 833 - 13/10/2014 10:06:22    1663066

Humble is it?

Let's try a few facts first. Kerry underestimated Armagh and Tyrone in the early noughties. They most certainly didn't in 08 but were beaten by a better team (and their own failure to adapt under pressure in that final). What jarred was the defence focused harrying was working, which is annoying to the attack minded Kerry elite players. To add insult to injury, some Tyrone fans were on about their team being the team of the decade... when the book hadn't been closed. For the record, Kerry won more despite everything, thanks to their manpower, focus and leadership.

Puke football is puke football. In this year's final, Donegal made some effort to play in the second half- but only after they had been out thought in the first half. It is a poor use of Murphy and McHugh to have them foostering about like that. That said, I am glad I waited it out. Why? We lost in the previous final against Dublin thanks to their brilliance and our own failure to close that game out. So, you often win those you shouldn't and lose those you should've won. If that annoys others, pardon me if I don't give a damn

plike (Kerry) - Posts: 569 - 13/10/2014 11:37:02    1663112

Guys give it up if Kerry had to play the other 31 counties
to win the AI they would .

wfkerry (USA) - Posts: 933 - 13/10/2014 11:49:14    1663121

Down, Derry and Donegal lost a bit of the inferiority complex and got stuck in beating the top sides Meath, Cork and Dublin (Kerry were on their 10 year holiday from 87 - 97).

Ulsterman - Down never had and never will have an inferiority complex, its just our nature I'm afraid

Tim_Burr (Down) - Posts: 460 - 13/10/2014 12:22:55    1663134

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 7058

1663027
MlCollins; Kerry's position at the top of the tree has been rightly earned and they are still the ones who the rest know they have to beat so you will get no arguement on that in as you say 'Nordieland' (Why do I get the impression you use that as a derogatory term?). Indeed growing up in the 70's and 80's with a lot of other stuff going on around us most Northern Gaels looked up at Kerry in awe. Those of us who played Gaelic football in the North wanted to be like Jack O'Shea, Eoin Listen and YES Pat Spillane as well, they were household names here. Kerry were the kingpins as they beat Ulster teams sniggering and sending us on our way with a 'Yezz are a doing a grand job up there'. Then when the intensity of the conflict waned Ulster sides started to play a bit and win. Down, Derry and Donegal lost a bit of the inferiority complex and got stuck in beating the top sides Meath, Cork and Dublin (Kerry were on their 10 year holiday from 87 - 97). For some reason those sides never made up excuses when Ulster teams beat them and they were largely civil and accepting in defeat. Kerry were a different kettle of fish. You knew how to win and make Ulster teams feel small in the 70's and 80's and you loved every minute of it. Then when Tyrone, Armagh and Down turned the tables on Kerry you couldn't hack it; your condescending arrogance and dismissive attitude wouldn't let you lose humbly and consequently you lost ALL the respect you had in Ulster. That is your legacy the past decade has left on the game and how Kerry is now thought of in Ulster. Not, as you should be, as the greatest football county in Ireland, BUT as bad losers who have left rather a nasty, bitter taste in peoples mouths.

Do you dream this stuff up while on the jacks?

Treaty_Exile (Limerick) - Posts: 386 - 13/10/2014 12:24:17    1663135

Guys give it up if Kerry had to play the other 31 counties
to win the AI they would .

Fine, can you admit then that the system is unfair and does give counties such as Kerry an unfair advantage? Which is what this tread is about rather than your ridiculous rhetoric.

JP91 (Armagh) - Posts: 316 - 13/10/2014 12:49:58    1663146

Ulsterman
County: Antrim
Posts: 7058

Then when Tyrone, Armagh and Down turned the tables on Kerry you couldn't hack it; your condescending arrogance and dismissive attitude wouldn't let you lose humbly and consequently you lost ALL the respect you had in Ulster. That is your legacy the past decade has left on the game and how Kerry is now thought of in Ulster. Not, as you should be, as the greatest football county in Ireland, BUT as bad losers who have left rather a nasty, bitter taste in peoples mouths.

It's not as if we were getting insulted to the high heavens once defeated. Soft under belly, soft all irelands, not able to beat ulster teams etc
Always an excuse then we did beat them. 'They're past their best' or my favourite that we didn't beat Ulster teams when it mattered.
Somehow getting knocked out of the c'ship outside of the final doesn't matter. Maybe it doesn't for some. It would explain a lot.
That was still going on up to 3 weeks ago

Insulting Kerry is nothing new.
Down's Joe Lennon famously said back in 1968 that 'Kerry are 30 years behind the time and won't win an All Ireland for another 30 years'.
Classy stuff. Wouldn't be hard to find more recent insult of a similar vein.

It's like you copy and past the same tantrum every couple of months.
You're like a needy child who needs a hug and be told their special.
I know Pat was very mean but you're a big boy now.

Superglue (Kerry) - Posts: 1283 - 13/10/2014 13:52:39    1663179

Cork and Kerry couldve still been drawn each other in semi.

It's actually the like of the other 4 who are getting the advantage and you could see the confidence it gave Tipp and Clare last year. Getting a game before taking on Cork and Kerry. Both very nearly won. Tipp were desperately unlucky not to

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 13/10/2014 17:49:01    1663281

Lads, most of this stuff isn't even on topic so this one is probably done by the looks of it.
Just a comment on some of the recent posts.
Are Kerry folk arrogant? Of course there is arrogance in Kerry and you get it on this site from time to time but I suppose as the earlier poster remarked it's something that creeps in when you are used to winning and getting your own way.They will probably say we can be arrogant too and indeed there are arrogant posters who love to lord it over everyone else as soon as they get a little success but I suppose that's just human nature.Indeed as soon as you win something you get the begrudgery aswell and this is often as evident as the arrogance as Kerry will know and indeed Dublin get their fair share of too.
Bottom line is they are no different to anyone else and we all hate to loose which makes the winning all the better and loosing so difficult to accept.

SLLY (Dublin) - Posts: 463 - 13/10/2014 20:11:17    1663337

Slly
Well said.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 13/10/2014 20:33:11    1663344

Treaty Exile
Can't let u away with all this nonsense you are talking about Ulster football
First of all you say the Ulster championship was a bye for the likes of Kerry and DUBLIN so I persume yo u are talking about the 70's/80's. Do you realise the situation that existed in the Six counties around that time::::how difficult it was for GAA people to keep running clubs and the hostile stance the Goverment there took against Gaelic games and culture
Do you not realise it was one of the most Dangerous places on Earth to live in::: yes The Six Counties , Arnagh, TYRONE, DERRY Down Fermanagh and Antrim.
At any time of day or night you could be lifted Nd might not see freedom again for years lots and lots of young men spent their 20's in prison so any of them that were good at football lost out as did their counties. Antrim won the All Ireland back in the late sixties or early seventies but that team never went nowhere as from what I can remember one or two of them were shot dead and some more were interend. That was at U21 level.
So you can see why Ulster teams would be cannon fodder. For a lot of young men to stay alive was no one, not to have good Gaelic football teams
I would argue that since partition Ulster had not a chance t for Cavan / MONAGHAN. To be fair Cavan produced good teams, GREAT TEAMS and won All Irelands in the 20's/30's40's/50's The six counties and Donegal had no chance of winning an All Ireland You can see how long it took some of them to win an Ulster Title Now saying that Leinster would be the only provience that Kerry would have win less titles is well out of touch. Do you think Kerry would have won all those titles if they were in Ulster from 1921 to around 1990 How would they have handled the period from 1969up on to say again 1990??
I would put Donegal's failure down to :: first ,, badly organised,, emigration lack of work , being so isolated with partition not helping. You only have to go back to the 50's and we stil had hiring fairs in Donegal where young boys and girls 15,16,17 years of age were hired out to big farmers for Six months with the parents getting around 15 pounds for the six month in my case we had not the price of a football or football boots and with a lot of us coming from big families maybe 10/12/14 or even 16 in the family what choice had we ::: The Boat. So having a good gaelic team was not the big issue then , survival was.
I often wonder how Kerry done it as they also suffered from immigration also but that's where they had a big advantage over Six county teams :: freedom to express themselves, to Train and never being harassed because they wanted to play Gaelic games So I do hope people understands how difficult life was in Ulster for some counties and hoe IMO Gaelic games , especially at county level took a long time to take off but they have done and with NINE All Irelands since 1991 I would be happy enough and also them being shared by Five different counties

SamOnErrigal (Donegal) - Posts: 1427 - 13/10/2014 21:09:58    1663360

Kerry have advantage in Munster as they are only county with no dual players.Cork are a hurling county

HandyMoran (Roscommon) - Posts: 327 - 13/10/2014 21:56:47    1663381

Sam - I think if there was another Treaty to be signed tomorrow a few of the posters on here would be first in line to get their names down like their forefathers did.

On the topic - do Kerry have an unfair advantage? I just look at the stats for AI wins and it fits exactly how I would expect, that is, the easier a Province is to win I would expect more AI wins (success breeds success, familiarity with getting to the big stage on a yearly basis etc..) with the largest Urban area ranking high up the table. It is no surprise then that the league table of AI wins goes as follows:

Easiest province to win - Munster (Kerry)
Largest Urban Area (Dublin)
Second Easiest Province to Win - Connacht (Galway)

Its not all down to being superior as some of our learned friends on here would try and convince us.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 14/10/2014 09:31:03    1663401

We had a large number of Ulster posters on here just a few weeks ago telling us that Jim McGuinness had used the provincial campaign to try out a number of different ideas, with the focus all year on having things right for Croke Park. These same posters, and not all were from Donegal, said that Jim had not showed his hand at all on their way to winning Ulster, and that was why they were well placed to win Sam. If Donegal have it so easy in Ulster these days that the manager can treat the games like pre-season friendlies, you would wonder why it was that they could not see the job out in Croke Park then? The best team win the All-Ireland, it was always the same.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 14/10/2014 09:58:52    1663412

Offside_Rule - you don't make any sense. If it's easier to win your province, you're not tested and you don't have the benefit of tough games. The reality is that the most games anyone has to win to win the all ireland is around 10. 10 games is not a lot over a period of 4 or 5 months. The more tough games you have (over that period) the better in my view. Mayo are not benefitting from playing in Connacht. In any event, the reality is that kerry, donegal, dublin, mayo and cork have been the only realistic all ireland contenders over the last 4 or 5 years. Meaningful games don't start until the all ireland quarter finals. If teams are good enough, they'll get to the quarters one way or another.

pdempsey (Mayo) - Posts: 1313 - 14/10/2014 10:09:30    1663417