informed

7. KK win the all ireland so Cody isn't allowed an opinion? What kind of nonsense is that?

It's as much nonsense as that statement above, of course he's allowed an opinion, but why didn't he keep his mouth shut regarding the ref especially seen as how KK actually won the AI, there's no need to be bitter when you're winning unless you think otherwise?

I'm not even from KK and it would sicken me the amount of begrudgers on here.

I'm not begrudging anybody anything, you're just making stuff up, well done to Kilkenny, they're current team are easily one of the best hurling teams ever, no question about that, the issue here is with Brian Cody, don't try and deflect it by stating there's a special hatred for Kilkenny.

Cork, Tipp and Davy Fitz have all slated Kelly in recent years but because Cody may or may not of slated him there is a topic on it and how bad he is.

"Cody may or may not of slated him".........you're having a laugh surely?

Ps, just for the record I'm not a fan of Davy Fitz either, I think he comes across very poor in interviews and I've stated so before on HS but that's just my opinion, not fact, so again NO special criticism for Cody.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 01/10/2014 10:18:30    1658865

informed

I think its time to re name you uninformed....

Your looking with blinkered eyes ... Did you not watch the sunday game ???

You want to sit down with me and re watch both matches ill clearly show you why this on the edge bs has no place in our game.. Ill show you the trained tactics of fouling by kilkenny teams.... Your right there is a bit of it in every game and when cork played clare this year there was a blatant intention intention by clare to replicate the tactics of kilkenny but were unable to do so and thus lost the match by constant fouling

Kilkennt are the masters at this for years and fair play to them ... Its the refs job to blow the whistle and they arent doing it... But i also think there is a responsibility on kilkenny and all other teams to play the game in the spirit its intended and stop cheating ...


Yes cheating .... Constantly stopping the opposition from playing the game as the rules intended its just cheating simple as that....

Jimmy Barry Murphy has never once made a comment re the introduction of the black card because for the most part it doesnt affect cork.. The are to their down fall essentially a clean team so they have no worries about cards in the game....Do you not think its unusual that the most outspoken manager against any change to the rules is Brian Cody ..... He knows the effect it will have on the Kilkenny hurling culture if these pulls, drags, Slaps on the shoulders are blown against ... So with your long winded defense of Mr Cody and kilkenny you still havent addressed the reality.. Kilkenny are a marvelously tallented skilled hurling outfit with a blight of consistent fouling...

You used one example where Sheflin and Reid were fouling the tipp no. 5 and said he got his free... I highlighted is as it was the best example of what im talking about ...

The man carried the ball 30/40 meters constantly being slapped on both side with hurleys.... He got the foul when rein tripped him on his left side... My point is your delusional if you think this is the only instance during the match where this and other tactics are deployed by Kilkenny....


This isnt an attack laid at kilkenny.... They are the masters of cynical fouling ... But id like to see it stamped out in every game..

We discuss physicality in our game.. There are plenty of legal physicality ... Standing a player up shoulder to shoulder contact... speed pace blocking hooking...

Why do we need the fouling ???? And why do we need to mask this fouling as physicality ??? Its not its cheating ..

Eliminate it and we will still have a strong physical quick game with more action more scores and more excitement and most importantly with the best team winning ...

Also we will look the ugly pulling and dragging fouling and all these bloody rucks as the player that wins the clean ball will be able to USE HIS HANDS to play the ball

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 01/10/2014 10:35:32    1658873

ballydalane
County: Kilkenny
Posts: 228

1658756
cuederocket
County: Dublin
Posts: 1170

1658739 I wouldnt have given the free myself,but 3 posters on the 1st page of this thread,said they agreed with the decision,so there must be some ambiguity in it.

I'm not remotely swayed by that, Cue. My time on GAA forums has taught me that there's an army people out there who would never, ever acknowledge if Kilkenny were hard done by a ref.

I don't think any other top class ref in the country would have given that as a foul at any stage of any match. That's 3 years in a row that major, controversial calls have gone against the same team, from the same referee. As the Yanks say, "do the math".

Did KK not get Reids goal after a blatant foul in the build up? Kelly let that one go and we arent complaining. Hogan clearly fouled Paudie, I honestly dont see how that can be questioned. Anyway we missed and ye won so what's the issue?

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 01/10/2014 10:49:49    1658880

Again here we have this staggeringly stupid question of "Anyway we missed and ye won so what's the issue?" Why should the result of the refereeing decision determine whether or not the desision should be analyzed? If a team has 3 men sent off incorrectly, but the team still manages to win, should the 3 sendings off be forgotten about?

Concerning the free against Hogan, if it was not given, who knows what could have happened, KK could have scored, Tipp could have scored, so to imply that desision made by the ref didn't matter is just laughable.

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 01/10/2014 11:22:15    1658895

Cody has shown himself to be a very "bad" winner. His use of the word criminal is an absolute disgrace and this example set by him gives every supporter in the country a licence to abuse referees. The CCCC need to hand him a ban. Ever since the day when Kevin Broderick of Galway was soloing against the Kilkenny defence and he lobbed the ball over the head of a defender, caught it behind him and scored a point, Coady has coached his teams to be ferocious in the manner they tackle, challenge, defend and hassle their opponents. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of fouling by his teams in accordance to the rules BUT some referee's do not award frees and some do. What needs to happen is ( a ) all teams defend in this manner or ( b ) all referee's give fouls when they are committed. Until this happens we will have debates like this current thread on this forum.

Clubgaa (Limerick) - Posts: 879 - 01/10/2014 11:27:25    1658898

The actual transcript is in the Examiner. It is not near as dramatic as every other media source has made it seem. It has been completely sensationalised. Cody was asked whether the draw or replay was a better match. He said replay cos KK won. He said he would love to have scored as much again but it wasn't realistic. He made reference to the fact that after the draw people said KK were poor but Tipp were brilliant and asked how come it was a draw if that was the case.

He then went on to say that the draw could have been swung by the free at the end which wasn't a free (seemingly the journalist was nodding) and Cody said that the decision was criminal (could have robbed Kilkenny). He was asked about issues with Kelly in the past and he said there was. Simple as.

He was asked a million times between the 2 matches about the decision and said nothing. Should he have said it then? if he did, ye would be saying he was pressurising Brian Gavin. But it has to be admitted that a lot of big decisions by Kelly have gone against Kilkenny (all we want from him is consistency).

People can go on about this cynical BS and playing on the edge. Kilkenny are as sinned against as sinning. Power & Fennelly were through on goal Saturday, both fouled cynically. In both the draw & replay, Kilkenny players had helmets interfered with, in fact Colin Fennelly had his pulled off by P. Maher and had change helmet and i know JJ did same against Limerick. Donal O Grady dive and pull to stop Power certain goal has to be the most cynical of all time. Last year against Cork, Shane O' Neills pull accross Larkin when in on goal (straight red without doubt but guess who was reffing). Padraic Maher in 2012 should have walked for his wild pull on Rice that shattered his hand and probably shouldn't have been on the pitch at that stage after 2 earlier wild pulls. all he got was a yellow. The dive at the end of 2012 drawn final was cynical in a different way. Iarlaith Tannion pull that shattered TJ Reid knee in replay

I'm not looking for a big long list of Kilkenny transgressions. The point i am trying to make is that all teams are sinned against and sin themselves

KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 01/10/2014 11:31:48    1658899

Heftydickonem

Concerning the free against Hogan, if it was not given, who knows what could have happened, KK could have scored, Tipp could have scored, so to imply that desision made by the ref didn't matter is just laughable.

But the free WAS given (right or wrong), there's far too many if's and could have's in your post, I mean if you were to focus on them instead of reality throughout the course of a 70min game you'd have an almighty mess on your hands and who knows what the score 'could have' been.

Simple reality (no if's or could have's), ref gave a free to Tipp in the last minute which was missed = draw game, simple as that, Cody and Kilkenny lifted the cup after a replay so there was no need for bitter comments about Barry Kelly and to be honest it would be nice to see a KK supporter acknowledge that, you're not obliged to stand up for your own if they step out of line.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 01/10/2014 11:54:23    1658909

KK4Life

Good post. A fair honest reflection.

Look it seems, we are not going to agree on whether that was a free or not at this stage.

Can we agree on the penalties?

Another issue that has been discussed are the penalties given to Tipperary in the opening game - neither of which were scored - much like the free at the end. Both were given to Tipp.

The first happened after 20 minutes. Bonnar Maher is through on goal. He is ahead of Paul Murphy - Murphy catches up Maher, put in his hurley - Maher grabs his hand -briefly pulling Murphy along with him in his momentum. Maher does grab him one more time, then falls and Murphy falls on top of him-Murphy does tug at Maher's jersey as well after he has been grabbed himself. To my mind, it is not a foul by Murphy. In fact, he is the one being fouled if anything. To me, either no free or a free out as it is good defending. He is not going to let him walk him to the goal and there does not seem to be a lot he can do. The 'fall' takes place on the line or just outside it. The booking of Paul Murphy is very harsh/unlucky.

The second penalty. This definitely outside the line and not a penalty. This is more clear-cut. The foul and fouled is also clear. It is a free to Tipp. Jackie Tyrell gets booked. A black card is more suitable punishment for this though in my opinion. That said, Paul Murphy would have received one too and that would not have been right on reflection.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/10/2014 12:10:16    1658923

Pity,for Tipps sake,the ref didnt award 2 frees to Tipp,instead of penalties.More than likely they would be champions now.Tipp have been the big losers in this Nash ruling.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/10/2014 12:18:29    1658926

I should say, that is how I saw the penalties after looking at them in slow motion. I appreciate that Barry Kelly has a much more difficult job. His umpires were in a much better position than him and should help him out more (he did consult them).

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 01/10/2014 12:18:54    1658927

I'm no fan of Kelly and his style of refereeing but Cody has crossed the line with his use of the word "criminal" in any shape or form. It is unprecedented for a manager to use such language in the context of a referee's decision on the field of play. Whether Kelly was right or wrong with that last minute free he made it in the heat of the moment. If a player made such a comment there would be no question that a suspension would be imposed. Even the national media seem unwilling or afraid to question or critique Cody on this. Cody also has a short memory remember Marty Morrissey got a lashing off Cody for the questioning the soft penalty KK got in the 09 final. Will Croke Park have the b*lls to impose a ban on Cody, its 8 weeks for this type of infraction by an official.

Brendanj (Westmeath) - Posts: 67 - 01/10/2014 12:27:30    1658933

Thanks Benny, I can't say I noticed as much with the first penalty as you but will definitely look again. My opinion at the time was that it was a foul but it started outside the box and finished inside. Having said that I had no issue with the penalty being given. A referee always gives a forward a chance to break free of the fouler and rightly so, this often results in the attacker being allowed take extra steps, which again I see no issue with. The steps taken while being fouled, provided the referee is satisfied he is being fouled should not be counted.

Anyway, back to the main point, a foul starting outside and finishing inside the box should be a penalty. The second one was no way a penalty, a free outside. Last Saturday was no penalty either. So Benny, is it your opinion that none of the 3 were penalties? Very interesting and fair play to ya.

Don't bring up black cards, that is a completely separate debate and not for this forum. Their is enough petty arguing already

KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 01/10/2014 12:34:07    1658939

I fairness, to my surprise it seems that most posters from all counties, are agreed that 'letting the game flow' at the expense of the rules, is just a cop out by unfit referees. And it seems that we all think that it's cost our counties scores, and maybe even wins, from time to time.

So can we all agree that from the moment that the ball is thrown in, the referee should do his best to enforce the rules, and then let the game flow within thsoe parameters? And that skill should be protected ahead of physicality?

Culchie (Cork) - Posts: 799 - 01/10/2014 13:02:45    1658952

Kk4,i also think the 3 penalties were wrongly awarded.Just as R Powers was wrongly awarded in 09 final.Difference being,Henry buried it from 16 yards out,which ultimately won the All Ireland,while Tipp got absolutely zero benefit from their penalties.In fact Kilkenny saved Callinans first pen in drawn game and went up the field and got a score.I know i am repeating myself here,but Tipp have been badly done for by the changing of the penalty rule mid season.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/10/2014 13:29:11    1658968

cuederocket
County: Dublin
Posts: 1182

1658926
Pity,for Tipps sake,the ref didnt award 2 frees to Tipp,instead of penalties.More than likely they would be champions now.Tipp have been the big losers in this Nash ruling.


The Nash rule is a separate issue and is being brought up time after time in the debate including by the President. What they fail to admit is the issue of poor officials. The awarding of three penalties in two games in dubious circumstances should be the focus. But of course it's in those begrudgers interest to ignore the real issue. Croke Park being the biggest culprits. They cannot continue to hide behind the Nash rule in order to protect the poor officials.

By the way - Shane O'Neill should have been twice red carded last year, once by ref Kelly. More bad reffing.

westisthebest (Galway) - Posts: 444 - 01/10/2014 14:34:34    1659014

I agree Westisbest, there's been an "aw, poor Tipp" narrative since the drawn match over the 2 missed penalties, despite the fact that they should never have been given as penalties in the first place. Are we happy with a ref getting 2 penalty calls wrong in an All-Ireland final? Apparently so, if they're given against the big bad Cats!

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 01/10/2014 14:52:01    1659032

If they were given as frees lads,Tipp would have scored 2 points and theres a good chance Tipp would be champions.Ha were going round in circles.Back to topic at hand,rumours that CCCC may act against Cody.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/10/2014 15:01:38    1659037

You're missing the point. If Cody has a case to answer well then so does Kelly. Two penalties incorrectly awarded - surely that's not good enough? Any man worth his salt would be livid over this and the free against Hogan to cap it all. Refs should be answerable. The only surprise I have is that Cody stayed silent for so long. Some man to cruise his moment and not allow it to distract from his preparations for the replay.

westisthebest (Galway) - Posts: 444 - 01/10/2014 15:36:40    1659054

westisthebest, you have hit the nail on the head. People seem to think Cody should say nothing seeing as KK won. He never said anything directly about Kelly before despite being given no shortage of reasons to. I personally believe there is a major problem with Kelly. That is my own opinion is all. But as you say, Kelly must have a case to answer getting 2 massive calls wrong.

If a player makes a mistake with a lose pull, he is reprimanded. If managers makes the mistake of confronting a referee, they are in bother. But a referee makes a number of such high profile errors, say nothing, sweep it under the carpet.

I think cody was right to say it now. If he waited till next year and say Kilkenny are knocked out of the championship when Kelly is reffing and may or may not have cost them, he will be dismissed and abused for being a sore loser.

KK4Life (Kilkenny) - Posts: 56 - 01/10/2014 15:50:13    1659063

You are missing the point westisbest.The fact of the matter is Cody was out of order in brandishing a mans decision as criminal.The vast majority posting on this thread believe it was a disgraceful act.You are in the 10/20% minority that think it was acceptable behaviour.I

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 01/10/2014 15:54:38    1659065