Intermediate and Junior championships will have no interest unless it is the only championship you have (i.e. they are excluded from the senior championship and it is the only means of getting into the senior championship). Alternatively, winning them needs to provide a back door to the senior championship. If they are just Tommy Murphys cup revisited they have no chance.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 10/11/2014 12:35:18    1671056

Donegalman - I agree everyone wants to play for Sam - and at the start of the Championship every county can aspire to that. for example in 2013 under the proposal London would have played in the senior Championship (as they reached the Connaught final.) In reality very few teams outside Div 1 & 2 make the provincial finals (Except for Munster when the big 2 don't meet and occasionally in Connaught) and I don't ever recall a team from outside div 1 or 2 making the all Ireland final. so aspirations are fine but in reality theres no point in having mismatches where teams get 20+ point beatings. that's why the 3 grades. It works well in every county why wont it work at intercounty level.
Tirawleybaron - the proposal suggests that each team only plays at one grade - but if a county wins junior in year one that they automatically are at least Intermediate in year 2.

fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 178 - 10/11/2014 15:50:34    1671146

fearcliste
County: Wexford
Posts: 116

1671146
Donegalman - I agree everyone wants to play for Sam - and at the start of the Championship every county can aspire to that. for example in 2013 under the proposal London would have played in the senior Championship (as they reached the Connaught final.) In reality very few teams outside Div 1 & 2 make the provincial finals (Except for Munster when the big 2 don't meet and occasionally in Connaught) and I don't ever recall a team from outside div 1 or 2 making the all Ireland final. so aspirations are fine but in reality theres no point in having mismatches where teams get 20+ point beatings. that's why the 3 grades. It works well in every county why wont it work at intercounty level.
Tirawleybaron - the proposal suggests that each team only plays at one grade - but if a county wins junior in year one that they automatically are at least Intermediate in year 2.



if this is the case then div 1 and div 2 could make up 4 groups of 16 teams. The top 2 qualifying for the quarter finals.

Division 3 and 4 play off in a b competition.

There is no point in having a c competition as the standard would not be lifted the same way as it would be competing for a b competition only.

4 teams in a group would mean 3 games in the group stages. Home and away fixtures would be an issue, but could be sorted out if there was a neutral ground used for the third gsme. Would be a good boost for towns that would not be used to the big games of the championship.

No backdoor.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 10/11/2014 18:45:01    1671212

We should combine the best of 3 worlds, and present to GAA:

1) Legendzxix - Entry level to Qual Rds 1 & 2 as you outlined (but would put loser from 'Lein QF without a 1st Rd winner' in Rd 1 and swap for loser from 'Uls QF with 1st Rd winner' to Qual Rd 2). Inter-prov pairings in Qual Rd 2. Prov losing finalists in an open draw with 4 Rd 2 Qualifiers in Last 16.

2) Tarawley - Strongest teams meeting in earlier prov rds, no seeding in any prov.

3) Omahant - Start with 16 team prov SFs but extend two more rounds to determine 'Champions Cup' (this creates more strong head-to-head pairings, but could be achieved through point 2 above).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 10/11/2014 18:45:11    1671213

In my opinion, this thread has been the best on this topic, particularly the first few pages - I encourage more good ideas - 'NONONO' need not disrupt.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 15/11/2014 17:52:38    1672500

The current championship structure is just the way it is.
Some things will never change without a motion getting passed at congress.
That's just the way it is...

Championship structures are an endless debate without any sign of any change. Ciaran Whelan has lamented that the championship is really only 6 weeks long from the August Bank Holiday weekend to the All-Ireland final. RTE had an article yesterday throwing another idea into the mix. Again there are arguments for an against their suggestion. I should know better at this stage than to get involved in this discussion. I've lumped in enough suggestions for what their worth, zilch. Anyways, here is goes:

LEAGUE - The number of league games should be reduced with even groups in the divisions:

1A - Cork, Dublin, Kerry, Donegal, Kildare & Down.
1B - Derry, Mayo, Tyrone, Monaghan, Westmeath & Meath.

2A - Laois, Roscommon, Louth, Fermanagh, Wexford & Clare.
2B - Galway, Cavan, Armagh, Sligo, Limerick & Tipperary.

3A - Offaly, Wicklow, Waterford & Carlow.
3B - Longford, Leitrim, Antrim & London.

In divisions 1 and 2, have 5 league games and a division final between the teams top of their respective groups. Division 3A might need a convoluted system where team play 2 teams from the other group to bring them to 5 games. Run the league over February and March.

CHAMPIONSHIP - The Championship should bring in Provincial groups starting in April. The idea for this came from an Ulsterman, who was a former GAA president.

MUNSTER - Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Clare, Limerick & Waterford.

CONNAUGHT - Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo & Leitrim.

LEINSTER GROUP A - Dublin, Wexford, Westmeath, Offaly, Wicklow & Carlow.
LEINSTER GROUP B - Meath, Kildare, Laois, Louth & Longford.

ULSTER GROUP A - Donegal, Tyrone, Derry, Fermanagh & Antrim.
ULSTER GROUP B - Monaghan, Armagh, Down, Cavan & London.

Munster and Connuaght would have straighforward provincial finals between the top 2 teams. Ulster and Leinster would have provincial semi-finals from the top 2 teams of the groups.

ALL-IRELAND SERIES:
All-Ireland Play-off - 4 provincial runners-up drawn against 4 provincial semi-final losers (from Leinster and Ulster).
All-Ireland quarter-finals onwards then as normal - Provincial champions drawn against play-off winners in the quarter-final draw.

So here is yet another suggestion. Provincial groups takes some games away from the league. Provincial finals are retained in all provinces. Leinster and Ulster due to the number of counties also retain their provincial semi-finals. These provincial semi-finalists gain a play-off spot along with provincial runners-up. The top 2 from all groups make the All-Ireland series.

Some suggest provincial groups will lead to more hammering's for certain counties. Should they be in the top tier championship if that is the case? Surely a county like Waterford will benefit from coming up against Cork and Kerry every year? The championship should not be offering a place to hide. If teams were out of their depth, the structure could be tweaked to 6 provincial groups of 4. 8 teams could enter the Tommy Murphy Cup as their competition. The Tommy Murphy Cup winner could then play-off against the bottom placed team from their province. In the case of Ulster and Leinster, the bottom team from both groups would have to play-off. It's another option.

Anyways without a motion passed at congress there will not be any change. That's just the way it is. Something's will never change. That's just the way it is!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 16/11/2014 09:35:42    1672570

Never say never legendrix, that is something I have learned over the years. Change will happen for certain, the question is the extent to which things will change and how long the new system will last.

Could you ever see a return to the straight knock out championship? It would be very unlikely. But it could happen, with a provincial championship running before it as a separate competition, and then a straight 32 county knock out style format.

Personally, I would like to see it. I think it would test teams in a meaningful way, and take provincial habits and competitions out of the rut they are in. I would love to see a donegal team travel to roscommon or galway for the first round of the championship, and take part in an all or nothing clash with no back door to save either team. Or maybe a 4 group system of 3 games with a quarter final waiting for the winners of each group. The league placings could be an excellent incentive to seed the teams.

Lots depend on the sponsors, and of course sky. They will want to see fixtures and structures that are meaningful and promote revenue for them. At the moment, it is not bad, but there are counties who go into the back door with absolutely no interest in the remainder of the competition, and whose players go to the states etc instead of fulfilling the remaining fixtures of their counties. It is not a satisfactory attitude, but there must be something wrong if they are thinking along these terms. Whatever system is going to be used must reflect an interest in terms of revenue.

Freeing up the club situation is a must also. A long protracted competition running through the summer is killing the game at club level.

Lots to consider, but to say that congress is going to insist on no change over the next few years is an interesting view. I predict some change within 4 years. We will see.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 16/11/2014 12:27:21    1672582

The championship structure is not going to change without a motion passed at congress. That's just the way it is lads!

Donegalman is right no never say never. We have however had the FRC report. Their proposals did not gain support. While the proposals for teams to move province was not adopted, parts of it could have been implemented. Within current structures the provinces could have been broken into 4 qualifier sections of 8. Two preliminary round losers, 1 from Ulster and 1 from Leinster, could move to the Connaught section but not it's championship. The remaining two preliminary round losers from Leinster could move to the Munster section but not it's championship.

Qualifier section by province:

ULSTER
Round 1 - 4 quarter-final losers.
Round 2 - 2 semi-final losers and 2 Round 1 winners.
Round 3 - 2 Round 2 winners.
Round 4 - Provincial runner-up versus Round 3 winner.

LEINSTER
Round 1 - 4 quarter-final losers.
Round 2 - 2 semi-final losers and 2 Round 1 winners.
Round 3 - 2 Round 2 winners.
Round 4 - Provincial runner-up versus Round 3 winner.

CONNAUGHT
Round 1 - 2 quarter-final losers, 1 Ulster preliminary round loser and 1 Leinster preliminary round loser.
Round 2 - 2 semi-final losers and 2 Round 1 winners.
Round 3 - 2 Round 2 winners.
Round 4 - Provincial runner-up versus Round 3 winner.

MUNSTER
Round 1 - 2 quarter-final losers and 2 Leinster preliminary round losers.
Round 2 - 2 semi-final losers and 2 Round 1 winners.
Round 3 - 2 Round 2 winners.
Round 4 - Provincial runner-up versus Round 3 winner.

Each province would provide 1 provincial champion and 1 qualifier for the All-Ireland quarter-finals. While I can't see everyone agreeing with this, it adopts a lot of what the FRC proposal set out to achieve but without entering Leinster and Ulster preliminary round losers into other provincial championships. In any deals or changes, there has to be a balance and a compromise. This offers one option.

It has to be remembered - the championship structure is not going to change without a motion passed at congress. That's just the way it is lads. Something's will never change!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 16/11/2014 14:00:12    1672591

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 4078

1672591
The championship structure is not going to change without a motion passed at congress. That's just the way it is lads!

Nobody is disagreeing with this point, that is the way things are changed in the organization, and motions are passed regularly enough by congress. What may happen in the foreseeable future is change to the championship through a vote in congress. It would be a farcical organization without some consistency in decision making that involves voting, and that is how things have been done successfully in the past.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 16/11/2014 16:22:30    1672610

It'll be a surprise to see change coming down the tracks. There's lots of talk of change with very few by way of motions at congress. The lack of support for the FRC option says a lot. Have they the appetite to return to the drawing board?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 16/11/2014 17:01:26    1672620

To Legenzxix -
I prefer your 50% of each prov than the 1 qualifier from each prov/quarter of the qualifier draw. The latter you present is the same as what we have but with an intra-prov pairings restriction. I can't believe nobody likes 24/7 - it's so fair.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 02/12/2014 17:55:21    1676062

Would be shocked if anything changes in the next 5 years.

Seeing as the fashion at the moment seems to be tinkering with the calendar, if I was dictator for life, I'd switch the times of the championship and the league around. The league played in summer conditions would be an awesome competition - with it's high volume of competitive games against teams of a similar level in decent conditions. I'd imagine after 5 years people would look back and wonder how the notion of the championship as the premier competition ever took hold.

Will never happen but a fun idea to think about.

besidetheditch (Dublin) - Posts: 81 - 02/12/2014 18:22:56    1676076

Based on the Cork County Club Championship system where club teams have to win any ONE of the first THREE rounds to qualify for the straight 16-team KO stage, the AI format could remain as is, but with the following changes:
1) Qual Rds 1, 2 & 3 are played in consecutive weekends.
2) Losers in Qual Rds 1 & 2 advance to the next rd (Rd 2 or 3).
3) Winners in ANY rd Qual Rd 1, 2 or 3, in quantities of 8, 8 & 4, join the 4 prov losing finalists in 24-team Rd 4.
4) 12 winners in Rd 4 join the prov champs in AI Series Rd of 16.
5) Open Draw in all 4 Qualifier Rds - seeding in AI Rd of 16 and beyond based on prov placing.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 07/12/2014 17:05:14    1677231

Or, keep the current structure with the following changes:

1) 8 Qualifier 1 losers advance to Rd. 2 (3rd chance, to offset prov imbalance).
2) 8 losing prov semi-finalists play those 8 Rd 1 losers in Rd 2.
3) 16 Qualifier Rd 1 and 2 winners join 4 losing prov finalists in Rd 3 (Rd of 20).
4) 2 losing prov champs from 'Champions Rd' join 10 Rd 3 winners in Rd 4 (Rd of 12).
5) 2 unbeaten prov champs join 6 winners from Rd 4 in the AI QFs.
6) Optional - To guarantee SF bye teams in Muns and Conn a 3rd match, the 8 non-prov finalists in Muns and Conn could play-off to determine 4 winners to Qual Rd 2 and 4 losers to Qual Rd 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 10/12/2014 14:22:14    1677834