Really like the preliminary round for provincial finalists idea. Nice simple change.

It would really spice up the early rounds of the championship and qualifiers.

Would probably get through as it would only really effect Donegal, Dublin, Meath, Kerry, Mayo, Galway and Cork. IF the other 25 counties voted against it you would wonder why they bother with county football at all.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 07/11/2014 08:19:59    1670341

....And if the Other 25 vote against their own byes, it's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

How about prior beaten SFlists pairing up in the following year Prov QFs as well ?

However, let's stop here - before the Kilkenny footballers are put in the Leinster Final :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 07/11/2014 18:02:11    1670543

If people really want change, one simple solution would be to have 50% of the teams from all provinces in the final 16 stage:

Munster: 3 out of 6 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier from the remaining 4.
Connaught: 3 out of 6 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 1 qualifier from the remaining 4.
Ulster: 4 or 5 out of 9 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 2 or 3 qualifiers from the remaining 7.
Leinster: 5 or 6 out of 11 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 3 or 4 counties from the remaining 9.

Ulster and Leinster would possibly have to come to an agreement e.g. the Ulster preliminary round loser joining the Leinster qualifying section.

There's an argument then for a round of 16:
Provincial winners drawn at home to a qualifier.
Provincial runners-up drawn against a qualifier with a separate draw to determine the home team.

With the above draw the following is the breakdown of the probability of a home draw:
Provincial winners - guaranteed home game.
Provincial runners-up - 1 in 2 chance of a home game.
Qualifier counties - 1 in 4 chance of a home game.

People often suggest an open draw championship. There's an argument for it but when two qualifier rounds can be run in parallel to the provincial semi-finals and provincial finals to bring the championship to a final 16 stage, it seems a better alternative.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 08/11/2014 11:21:58    1670624

Yet another pointless thread....omhant I completely lost you after the second line...and as for some of the other suggestions.....the only thing that needs fixing is to amalgamate the Connacht and Munster championships and stop the farce of fixture fixing in leinster

mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 08/11/2014 12:31:35    1670641

its hard to see any breaking away from the provincial system. Unless you had it straight knockout and then had an open draw for the championship, without a back door either. Might be worth considering?

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 08/11/2014 12:42:46    1670644

omahant
County: USA
Posts: 440

1670543
....And if the Other 25 vote against their own byes, it's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

How about prior beaten SFlists pairing up in the following year Prov QFs as well ?

However, let's stop here - before the Kilkenny footballers are put in the Leinster Final :)

------

I admire your zeal for configuring League and SFC formats bro. I picture your place with the walls covered with charts, tables, graphs and spreadsheets of various scheduling scenarios. :-)

mikeyjoe (USA) - Posts: 415 - 08/11/2014 13:33:36    1670659

@ Donegalman - hard to see a breakaway from the provincial structure alright. If people are so eager for change, it's the reason I'd suggest seeking fairness from within current structures. 50% of counties from each province in the last 16 seems fair. Running two qualifier rounds in parallel with the provincial semi-finals and finals also seems fair and streamlines the championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 08/11/2014 13:39:30    1670660

08/11/2014 12:31:35
mayotyroneman
Yet another pointless thread....omhant I completely lost you after the second line...and as for some of the other suggestions.....the only thing that needs fixing is to amalgamate the Connacht and Munster championships and stop the farce of fixture fixing in leinster No the Munster and Connacht provinces should not be amalgamated. There is no reason for them to be. That isn't the issue and doing it wont solve the big problems in the championship structure
08/11/2014 12:42:46 Donegalman
its hard to see any breaking away from the provincial system. Unless you had it straight knockout and then had an open draw for the championship, without a back door either. Might be worth considering? No as going back to straight knock out is a backwards step

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 08/11/2014 18:21:00    1670713

To Legendzxix -

Your 50% of each prov is a good one, although the teams could still be inter prov in the Quals - you say 1 of 4 quals from Muns and Conn, well that can be done with 2 qual rds even with Muns v Con matchups. Also, if 1st round losers in Lein and Uls get no back door, you"d have 12 in Quals from Lein and Uls combined, requiring 1 Qual Rd to get 6 teams for the Last 16.

To Mikeyjoe -
Flip charts and tables are in my head, but I have been known to write out some with my finger in the steamed glass in the shower - that is, a trail is temporary :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 08/11/2014 20:29:51    1670743

To Legendzxix -
As an additional incentive for winning provs, I'd put the losing finalists in an open draw with the 4 remaining qualifiers.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 08/11/2014 20:38:02    1670746

Legendzxix - Or, simply the, 4 winners from Muns Conn in Rd 1, join the 12 from Lein Uls in Rd 2 in an open draw. While 50% from each prov may be desirable, there is nothing wrong with stronger provs over represented - either way, this is still fair. Actually, if we keep all your 16 from LeinUls and 8 from MunsConn, the teams that currently enter existing Qual Rds 1 and 2 - by swapping rounds for the QF losers of the LeinUls finalists (4 teams) for the MunsConn losing SFlists (4 teams), we get what you are trying to achieve with your Super 16 here - do you think improves the improves the fairness of the current Quals on path to a Super 16 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 09/11/2014 16:30:59    1670864

Legendzxix - Or, simply the, 4 winners from Muns Conn in Rd 1, join the 12 from Lein Uls in Rd 2 in an open draw. While 50% from each prov may be desirable, there is nothing wrong with stronger provs over represented - either way, this is still fair.
Actually, if we keep all your 16 from LeinUls and 8 from MunsConn, the teams that currently enter existing Qual Rds 1 and 2 - by swapping rounds for the QF losers of the LeinUls finalists (4 teams) for the MunsConn losing SFlists (4 teams), we get what you are trying to achieve with your Super 16 here - do you think that this improves the fairness of the current Quals on path to a Super 16 ?

The 4 losers in LeinUls QFs that start in Qual Rd 2 could also be those QFs involving a prov 1st Rd winner (Lein 3 Uls 1) in lieu of losers to the prov finalists, as the former gives prov rd winners at least a bye to Qual Rd 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 09/11/2014 16:47:43    1670871

At the end of the day, I'm wintering well. Ciarraí abú! ;)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 09/11/2014 16:58:06    1670879

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 4066

1670660
@ Donegalman - hard to see a breakaway from the provincial structure alright. If people are so eager for change, it's the reason I'd suggest seeking fairness from within current structures. 50% of counties from each province in the last 16 seems fair. Running two qualifier rounds in parallel with the provincial semi-finals and finals also seems fair and streamlines the championship.

Would that mean eliminating a third provincial county from the quarter finals no mater what? and how would this be done?

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 09/11/2014 17:26:49    1670892

no,
if yes club championship will have to be completely change

kerryluck (Kerry) - Posts: 2517 - 09/11/2014 17:41:17    1670898

09/11/2014 17:26:49
Donegalman
County: All
Posts: 1737

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 4066

@ Donegalman - hard to see a breakaway from the provincial structure alright. If people are so eager for change, it's the reason I'd suggest seeking fairness from within current structures. 50% of counties from each province in the last 16 seems fair. Running two qualifier rounds in parallel with the provincial semi-finals and finals also seems fair and streamlines the championship.

Would that mean eliminating a third provincial county from the quarter finals no mater what? and how would this be done?

For a Round of 16 I'd suggest 50% of counties from each province:

Munster - 3 out of 6 teams.
1. Provincial champion.
2. Provincial runners-up.
3. Other 4 counties playing off in two qualifier rounds with one advancing to the Round of 16.

Connaught - 3 out of 6 teams.
1. Provincial champion.
2. Provincial runners-up.
3. Remaining 4 counties playing over Q1 and Q2. 1 advancing to the Round of 16.

Ulster - 4 or 5 out of 9 teams.
1. Provincial champion.
2. Provincial runners-up.
3. 4 quarter-final losers playing of in Q1. Two Q1 winners taking on semi-final losers in Q2. 2 advancing to the Round of 16.

Leinster - 5 or 6 out of 11 teams.
1. Provincial champion.
2. Provincial runners-up.
3. 3 preliminary round losers and Ulster preliminary round loser playing in Q1. Two Q1 winners, 4 quarter-final losers and 2 semi-final losers playing in Q2. 4 advancing to the Round of 16.

The Round of 16 would contain the following teams:
4 Provincial winners.
4 Provincial runners-up.
8 Q2 winners (1 Munster, 1 Connaught, 2 or 3 Ulster and 3 or 4 Leinster)

* Draw provincial winners at home against a qualifier county.
* Draw provincial runners-up against the remaining 4 qualifier counties with a separate draw for home tie.

Have your quarter-finals onwards in Croke Park then as normal.

Breakdown of the season:
1. Provincial Preliminary Rounds.
2. Provincial Quarter-finals.
3. Provincial Semi-finals and AI Qualifier Round 1.
4. Provincial Finals and AI Qualifier Round 2.
5. AI Round of 16.
6. AI Quarter-finals.
7. AI Semi-finals.
8. AI Final.

Qualifier Rounds 1 and 2 neatly get us to a Round of 16 while the Provincial semi-finals and finals are being played. With 50% of the counties from each province in the Round of 16, it seems fair enough for all counties.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 09/11/2014 21:09:35    1670959

This last post by the Kerry lad is by far the best out of a bad bunch of mostly stupid ideas.
As long as each stage is played over 1 w/e (I know ppl will complain about having 4 provincial finals on 1 w/e, but still). This will help the club scene to run their league and championships along side and not having to wait months to play a match like the current scenario!
My only alternative suggestion would be an open draw after provincials, with winners and runners up seeded like in tennis. But then that means more intercounty fixtures and clubs are further shafted.
But, realistically, the powers that be won't take Dublin out of Croker (money talks), and won't change the handpass rule, so this is a pointless debate

beansycpn (Down) - Posts: 128 - 10/11/2014 10:06:27    1671006

re the initial thread, it is an excellent incentive to make the league more meaningful and competitive.

re back door, I am wondering how relevant it is any more. How many of the smaller teams actually dread it, or even the better counties, whos players are held to ransom over the whole thing. Players either want to play for their home clubs or go to the USA to play if they are good enough. Being in the back door creates dissonance across the board.

I think that the provincial championship separate to the all ireland fixture and then an open 32 county draw, with some seeding would be the best alternative. Straight knock out competitions.

re a back door system to even out the provincial representation in the last 8, it is close enough as it is. every year, cork and kerry are there from munster, galway/roscommon or mayo are there from connaught, dublin/kildare/meath/laois make it and take your pick from ulster. Seeding to balance what the law of averages is already taking care of does not make sense.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 10/11/2014 11:40:36    1671034

I have seen a proposal which
1 preserves the status of the provincial championships,
2 gives certainty to clubs and county as to when championship games will be played
3 provides for a similar number of games for all the top teams
4 provides for a consistent gap between rounds for all teams
5 ensures that all teams county will be involved in competitive action at least until 4th week in July
6 Means that teams at all levels can win and all Ireland and also can progress as they improve.

It involves having a Senior, Intermediate, and Junior All Ireland which commences on 4th Sunday of July. Counties grading depends on 3 things, Provincial Championship (both Finalists) league standings (excluding the provincial finalists) and previous years winners of the championship grade below i.e. intermediate winners 2015 automatically play in the senior Champ in 2016.
There would be 16 teams in the Senior Champ, 8 teams in intermediate Champ & 8 in Junior Champ. All Ireland champ games played every 2nd weekend from 4th Sunday in July with All Ireland Junior and intermediate finals played before All Ireland Senior semi finals.
Based on this years performances the senior Championship would consist of. Donegal, Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Monaghan, Cork, Meath, Galway,Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cavan, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath, Roscommon.

fearcliste (Wexford) - Posts: 178 - 10/11/2014 11:48:35    1671036

fearcliste
County: Wexford
Posts: 115

There would be 16 teams in the Senior Champ, 8 teams in intermediate Champ & 8 in Junior Champ. All Ireland champ games played every 2nd weekend from 4th Sunday in July with All Ireland Junior and intermediate finals played before All Ireland Senior semi finals.
Based on this years performances the senior Championship would consist of. Donegal, Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Monaghan, Cork, Meath, Galway,Tyrone, Derry, Down, Cavan, Kildare, Laois, Westmeath, Roscommon.

The difficulty with this is that there are many counties that want to compete for sam, even if they have lsee hope of winning it. Armagh, Sligo, longford, wexford, Tipp for instance. I think that the lack of interest in the smaller competitions over the past outlined this.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 10/11/2014 12:10:12    1671047