To Legendzxix -

Maybe you can throw in that they (TMC winner) can meet me here :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 02/10/2014 21:08:52    1659568

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3862

1659301
If 8 division 4 teams had a disdain for the Tommy Murphy Cup, I cannot see a tiered championship coming in. Even offering to send the winner to New York as I suggested is unlikely to be enough of a carrot!

I don't think you will sell it as "The Tommy Murphy Cup".

All Ireland Intermediate Champions would probably be the title ( presenting the Tommy Murphy Cup to winners ).

With regards the 2 Tier Championship, lets not forget that most suggestions here offered every team in Ireland a shot at the All Ireland Senior football Championship every year.

If you fail make the top 4 in your province, there is still an All Ireland Intercounty title you can play for and have a great chance of winning. If there was a bit more of a financial Incentive from the gates and sponsership, It might help convince the more conservative types to give this a shot.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 02/10/2014 21:28:20    1659577

Grand, the Tommy Murphy Cup can be presented to the Intermediate Championship winner! The winner can be flown off to New York in the spring after the league. All counties not getting past qualifier round 2 to be entered to the second tier.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 02/10/2014 21:53:48    1659594

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 3863

1659594
Grand, the Tommy Murphy Cup can be presented to the Intermediate Championship winner! The winner can be flown off to New York in the spring after the league. All counties not getting past qualifier round 2 to be entered to the second tier.

Look Legendzxix, I hope I didn't sound disrespectful to the notion of the Tommy Murphy Competition. I just genuinely feel the prospect of competing in and winning an All Ireland ( Intermediate ) title would be really appealing.

In addition to this, we could have All Stars awarded for the Intermediate Competition. Giving much deserved recognition to outstanding talent from lower league who also put in massive effort and are unlikely to win an All Star.

The Intermediate All Stars could then face off with the Senior All Stars in New York, rather than playing last years All Stars.

More recognition to lower league sides, would definitely raise the profile in those Counties and create more Interest.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 03/10/2014 14:01:42    1659758

Some people on here saying that all counties should compete for Sam, even though it's plain to everyone that quite a number (Meath are borderline) are nowhere near being competitive at this level. By the rational being expressed by some, you could extend that to all clubs and say they all should have a chance to compete for the SFC in their counties. The reason for different competitions in club is to allow them be competitive some level. Once proven i.e. win the bloody thing, they move up to the next level or they achieve a level in the league which shows that they can be competitive at a higher level. Same should apply at IC, give weaker counties a chance to compete for something realistic on an annual basis, and allow them to develop and move up/down accordingly to resources/players etc. Most weaker county panels are broken up by mid June, and get back together again the following Jan, probably with a host of changes and no real chance to develop as a unit. I believe that a competitive structure where these panels stay together longer and develop, would be a big help. Separate competitions with some form of promotion/relegation, and proper scheduling to run the competitions over a shorter time.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 03/10/2014 14:50:07    1659788

Agree entirely with Moylagh, coming from one of the weaker counties I believe it is high time to introduce a tiered structure to the championship. . My proposal would be 12 snr, 12 inter and 9 jnr teams competing for 3 separate all-irelands, the jnr and inter finals could be played at HQ on the Sat of AI weekend.
Each comp could be broken up into 3 groups of 4 or 4 groups of 3, each side plays the other at home and away, ensuring gate receipts for all counties and taking the likes of Dublin out on the road for at least two games every year.
The top 8 teams in Inter and Snr progress to the q finals while the other 4 go into a relegation playoff. For example, the two inter finalists are promoted to senior for the following season while the two snr teams losing their relegation play off drop back to the Inter.
This is a logical approach and ties in broadly with how adult football competitions are structured in every county across the land. Also, lets dispense with the notion that an inter or jnr AI is a version of the Tommy Murphy cup, which was a competition for two time losers which was never treated as a national title.
A meaningful competiton such as a jnr, inter AI would allow teams to build and progress at their own level and compete for a title within reach. This idea of every team being entitled to compete for Sam is rubbish, let teams earn the right to get to the top table. The provincial championships could still be played off earlier in the year (April/May time) but they shouldn't determine the configuration of the AI competitions. Let's face it, if you were setting out to create a competition with 33 teams competing you wouldn't start by dividing them up in groups of 6,7,9 and 12!

northernsoul (Leitrim) - Posts: 78 - 03/10/2014 15:43:41    1659814

The reality is that the Tommy Murphy Cup was following on from the naming convention used in hurling's lower tiers. A proper intermediate championship will have teams competing in it as their only level with promotion for the winner. I cannot see the support for that at congress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 03/10/2014 15:45:20    1659816

As I've said before, this was the greatest thread on this topic - so I dug this out despite the high proliferation of other similar postings - it seems the Administrator lost control of consolidation :)
l had another brainwave - keep the existing structure - with 16 to prov SFs and to 1st Rd Quals. Have both streams play 4 rounds, with the Qual winner getting T Murf Cup.
Give the 16 prov sflists a back door after each rd and give the 16 TMC teams a 3rd chance after 1st round only.
So we have 8 in prov finals, 8 TMC and 16 quals; then 4 champs playoff, 4 TMC in sfs and 12 in quals: then 2 champs playoff final, 2 in TMC final and 8 in quals; 1 champs cup winner to AI SFs and TMC champ joins 5 quals in AI QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 19/10/2014 20:36:16    1665263

Should the weakest teams get 3 chances ? This would give them more matches and would most likely not affect the business end of the championship. In fact the change below gives everyone a minimum of 3 matches (not unlike round robin play).

Keep the current structure - but put the Qual Rds 1 and 2 losers go to Rd 3 (3rd chance); Qual Rd 2 winners go to TMC QFs (straight KO on this 2nd chance); and 8 to the prov finals (they pay 3 KO Rds, with losers in quants of 4, 2 and 1 (they go to Qual Rds 4, 5 and 6).
The one unbeaten prov champ plays 3 Rd 6 (or AI QF) winners in the AI SFs.
With nobody eliminated at the Qual Rd 3 stage, this levels the playing field, while preserving the initial lopsided nature of the prov championships.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 03/11/2014 16:22:56    1669428

No the NFL or similar should decide whole thing. The provincial Competitions are long past their sell by date. I'd say there will be more at the Tyrone Dublin League match than there will be at the entire Munster Football Championship in 2015.

tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 03/11/2014 17:39:17    1669443

Yes, but in my idea 'Dub v Tyr' may occur during the 'front door' 8 prov finalists 'Champs Rds' and again during the AI Series. Better than what we have. And I agree, re the Muns Championship - the weak 4 of Munster should be set up for defeat in my Qual Rd 3, if not in with a chance of winning a TMC QF.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 03/11/2014 18:31:09    1669464

On reflection, the only thing worth considering would be something that reflected performance in the league.

Seeding based on what division you are in the following year after the all ireland draw is made.

Division 1 in one bowl (top seeds)
Division 2 in second bowl (second seeds)
Division 3 in third bowl (third seeds)
Division 4 in 4th bowl (fourth seeds)

Division 1 drawn against division 3 (8 games)
Division 2 drawn against division 4 (8 games)
This constitutes the first round of the championship and home advantage is drawn

Second round
Open draw thereafter, home advantage given to the team who played their previous game away (or lots drawn or neutral venue if both drawn away)

Back door teams battle it out as per usual and are reintroduced at the quarter finals. All in Croke Park thereafter, (unless there is an american football game or a concert on in croke park).

Provincial championships played as per usual except in a much shorter time frame. (or scrapped altogether for a while).

Not sure if there is any worthwhile reason to have provincial competitions from now on. They are losing their flavor.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 03/11/2014 18:35:34    1669465

You need to keep provincial championships. Gives smaller counties a chance to win silverware and beat higher ranked sides doing so
Also keeps local rivalrys going that may not occur so much with a change to group stage or straight knock out all Ireland cup

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/11/2014 19:59:53    1669489

I have a prov stream (4 champs), continuing thru champs rounds; a TMC stream; and a Qualifying steam (3rd match for all). Would it be better to have prov losing SFlists going thru the TMC stream, or straight to Qualifiers (2nd chance only) ? While guaranteeing everyone at least a Qual 3rd Rd berth, does this not level the playing field while preserving the prov lopsided structure ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 04/11/2014 16:15:07    1669668

Don't agree with a 3rd chance. If you are beaten twice you have had enough goes at it.
How would you propose to fit all these matches in between May and September while permitting a few club championship matches?
You can't solve the championship problems without taking into account how club championships will be run.
Ignore the club championships and any solution is a dead duck.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 04/11/2014 17:13:17    1669683

I have a suggestion for a championship format but, if God spares me and I don't forget to do it, I'm going to wait till next April 1 to reveal it.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1042 - 05/11/2014 09:29:09    1669754

There is an argument for preliminary round losers to get an extra chance as they are starting a round earlier than other teams. An agreeable solution for that however is difficult to see.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/11/2014 11:42:13    1670055

That was thought process entirely - No need for a Muns v Conn champs playoff, if there is a 3rd chance at the lower end.

Questions for youz: Would you prefer: a) 32-33 Prov stream, and Qual Rds 1 & 2 losers go to 16-team Qual Rd 3 (3rd chance, after loss in Provs and Qual Rd 1 or 2); or b) Start Provs at 16-team SFs, with Other 16 in TMC - 8 losers from TMC v 8 Prov SF losers in (2nd chance) Qual Rd 1 - no other TMC losers to Quals (so guarantee is only 2 matches), but all 8 Prov Finalists (have 2nd chance)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 06/11/2014 18:16:48    1670259

legendzxix
County: Kerry
Posts: 4055

1670055
There is an argument for preliminary round losers to get an extra chance as they are starting a round earlier than other teams. An agreeable solution for that however is difficult to see.

Too much football if there was a 2nd back door game on top of the prelim match. Club fixtures would suffer further as well as a county ending up exhausted.

What about taking a leaf out of the american football league, and handicapping the winners every year? We could have donegal v monaghan in the prelim round in 2015, mayo v galway, kerry v cork and dublin v meath. The provincial finalists would automatically meet the following year in the prelim round, the remaining teams being paired off in an open draw. It would mean that lesser counties would have a real chance at reaching a provincial final, and the better teams would have to work harder to get to the final, let alone win it. The game would become more competitive would it not??

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 06/11/2014 18:54:56    1670271

Interesting point regards provincial finalists automatically meeting in the preliminary round in the following year. Will it get through a motion at congress?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/11/2014 21:58:23    1670337