ormondbannerman
County: Clare
Posts: 8368

1658459
29/09/2014 21:25:56 GaryMc82
Where are you getting the idea that scrapping the current league for a provincial league will see bigger crowds in attendance. The bottom 4 Munster sides have often been in the same division in national league in football and it hasn't exactly seen huge crowds at league games
By sending 4 sides from each province to national set up it unfairly gives advantages to the counties from smaller provinces(Connacht/Munster) over Leinster and Ulster counties


I suppose I see alot of National league games this season, where good crowds turned up for games such as
Derry v Tyrone, Donegal v Monaghan, Armagh v Monaghan, Down v Armagh, Armagh v Donegal

While other games against non-Ulster opposition didn't attract as much Interest, and the overall turnout was poor in comparison.
And I noticed a similar trend in previous years, where these local derby games drew decent crowds in comparison to other games.

I assumed this would be the case in the other Provinces too, where a Mayo v Galway or Roscommon will attract a larger crowd than say Mayo v Down or Westmeath.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 30/09/2014 13:27:51    1658565

ormondbannerman
Where are you getting the idea that scrapping the current league for a provincial league will see bigger crowds in attendance. The bottom 4 Munster sides have often been in the same division in national league in football and it hasn't exactly seen huge crowds at league games
By sending 4 sides from each province to national set up it unfairly gives advantages to the counties from smaller provinces(Connacht/Munster) over Leinster and Ulster counties
30/09/2014 13:27:51 GaryMc82
I suppose I see alot of National league games this season, where good crowds turned up for games such as
Derry v Tyrone, Donegal v Monaghan, Armagh v Monaghan, Down v Armagh, Armagh v Donegal
While other games against non-Ulster opposition didn't attract as much Interest, and the overall turnout was poor in comparison.
And I noticed a similar trend in previous years, where these local derby games drew decent crowds in comparison to other games.
I assumed this would be the case in the other Provinces too, where a Mayo v Galway or Roscommon will attract a larger crowd than say Mayo v Down or Westmeath. Fair point in part but look to my evidence of Tipperary and Munster football counties. It isn't always true and having a provincial league over a national league even with your proposal for the championship has too much of counties always playing the same counties year in year out and gives unfair advantages to counties in smaller provinces

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 30/09/2014 13:56:10    1658581

The provincial system does not reflect the demographics of the country, nor does it reflect that it's much easier to get around the country than when the system was put in place over 100years ago.
This is how I see current state of the AI football competition when you compare it with league positions: Probable AI winner from Div 1, outside chance of a team from Div 2, snowballs chance in hell of a team from Div 3 and absolutely no chance of a team from Div 4. You also have the question of overseas participation with London, Warickshire and NY. How are they to be accommodated in a meaningful way to promote the games.
Whether people like to admit it or not, weaker counties and overseas teams need a meaningful championship of their own that will allow them to develop and improve. Whether any are capable of getting to the Dublin/Kerry/Donegal level doesn't matter, getting more people to participate should be the goal and general improvement of standards.
Supporters shouldn't be getting their knickers in a twist at the thought of separate/parallel competitions with promotion/relegation. It happens all the time at club level as teams develop and then fade away, so why not at IC level.
A needlessly over extended IC championship at the expense of club fixtures is having a detrimental affect on a lot of clubs.
Don't even get me started on the hurling, which are a complete farce with no promotion for Kerry or Kildare despite winning league and Ring respectively.
I've proposed different systems before as have a lot of others, some along the lines of what has been mentioned so far. Reality is, the vested interests in the GAA, county and provincial will not go for radical structural change. We'll probably end up with some re-arrangement of the provinces to make up groups of 8, and no serious attempt to overhaul structures.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 30/09/2014 14:28:44    1658601

Every county should have the right to fight for Sam McGuire.
While only a handful can win it does that mean the rest can be chucked out on their heads to a lower competition.

Have we ever heard of soccer clubs being throw out of competitions or formats improved because the top clubs keep winning year in year out ???

There are only a few options and everyone will agree / disagree.

8 x 4 format as which was proposed this year I believe
champions league format with seeded teams / pots as is the norm for lots of competitions now , rugby , soccer & cricket
current format as is
knockout format as before and only 1 chance in the whole year - winner takes all

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 30/09/2014 15:46:15    1658627

Well, for minimal changes, one thing I've suggested before is 50% representation from each province at the final 16 stage:

Munster - 3 teams (2 provincial finalists and 1 non-finalist)
4 non-finalists play-off for 1 place in the last 16.

Connaught - 3 teams (2 provincial finalists and 1 non-finalist)
4 non-finalists play-off for 1 place in the last 16.

Ulster - 4 or 5 teams (2 provincial finalists and 2 or 3 non-finalists)
4 losing quarter-finalists play-off with the winners taking on losing semi-finalists for 2 places in the last 16.

Leinster - 5 or 6 teams (2 provincial finalists and 3 or 4 non-finalists)
3 preliminary round losers and Ulster preliminary round loser play-off. The 2 winners join the 4 losing quarter-finalists and 2 losing semi-finalist in playing off for 4 places in the last 16.

ALL-IRELAND FINAL 16 STAGE:
AI Qualifier Round 1: 8 teams - 1 non-finalist from both Munster and Connaught, 2 or 3 non-finalists from Ulster and 3 or 4 non-finalists from Leinster.
AI Qualifier Round 2: 4 Provincial runners-up drawn against 4 Q1 winners.
AI quarter-finals etc. as normal.

Teams 3rd to 8th in Division 3 and all Division 4 teams not making the final 16 should enter the Tommy Murphy Cup as a second tier competition for the rest of the summer.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 30/09/2014 18:08:51    1658702

I think we can generally agree that after the Provincial Championships,

The top 16 teams should enter the All Ireland Senior football championship

The rest should enter a secondary/Intermediate style All Ireland competition.

All Counties have the chance to make the All Ireland Senior football Championship every year, depending on how they get on in the Provincials.

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Two area's of contention,

1. National League ( Currently 7 group games, and possibly a SF and/or Final depending on Division ).

2. Provincial Championship's format/structural change.

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Every team is currently guranteed 7 league games, 1 Provincial Championship game and 1 qualifier game. Thats a minimum of 9 games per season.

If a team wins National league Div 1 ( 9 games ), wins Provincial Ulster/Leinster ( 4 games incl prelim rd ) and wins the All Ireland series ( 3 games ), they would play a max of 16 games through the front door ( Not Including qualifiers or replays ).

So currently you can expect to play between 9 and 16 games in League in Championship

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 30/09/2014 21:10:07    1658790

where would London & New York fall in to this ?

Should Kilkenny be forced to enter a football team?

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 30/09/2014 21:32:33    1658804

GaryMc82
County: Derry
Every team is currently guranteed 7 league games, 1 Provincial Championship game and 1 qualifier game. Thats a minimum of 9 games per season. 

If a team wins National league Div 1 ( 9 games ), wins Provincial Ulster/Leinster ( 4 games incl prelim rd ) and wins the All Ireland series ( 3 games ), they would play a max of 16 games through the front door ( Not Including qualifiers or replays ).

So currently you can expect to play between 9 and 16 games in League in Championship

The championship with provincial groups will retain a knock-out phase to it. If you have 5 regular league games and at least 4 or 5 championship group games, you are still on 9 or 10 games for the season at the very least but with an increased number of games in the main competition.

If the 6th league game is a division final and you are playing 4 or 5 knock-out games on top of 4 or 5 championship group games, you are looking at 14 to 16 games in league and championship.

I think provincial groups is the way to go. You're speaking of retaining 5 or 6 league games. Then stepping thing up a few notches with 4 or 5 provincial championship games before the provincial semi-finals and finals prior to the All-Ireland series. It's more for the players benefit than anything, getting to player a higher percentage of games in the main competition. As seen from Gary's stats and then mine, we're speaking of the same number of games in total.

The league has a place for championship preparation and also variety of competion by playing more counties. I do not agree with scrapping the league entirely but the number of games should be reduced and used instead in the main competition. Provincial groups is like a 6 nations tournament format within the provinces if ye'll excuse a rugby comparison! To gain qualification for the All-Ireland series, teams would have to finish in the top 2 or 3 places in their provincial group. Provincial places in the All-Ireland series could be something along current lines. Provincial winners into quarter-finals. Provincial runners-up into the final qualifier round before the quarter-finals. Non-provincial finalists who've finished in the top 3 in the group playing off for a place in the final qualifier round.

Regardless of changes or not, the All-Ireland quarter-finals onwards are still going to be the headline events as the championship heads towards the business end. Any changes prior to that are either for more balance of games or providing more games in the main event.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 01/10/2014 08:36:13    1658822

I wouldn't be a fan of having the provincial system as round robin in the championship. I don't see the value in having Kerry beat Limerick, Waterford, Clare and Tipp every year. One beating every few years is enough for them. Same for Dublin beating everyone in Leinster.

How about the following:

1. Reduce league to 4 groups of 5 with 6 in the bottom 2 groups. No finals.
2. Run knock out provincial championship with seeded draw similar to Munster football Championship in 2015.
3. Run A and B championship 16 team championship based on provincial results as follows
4. 16 teams who don't qualify for provincial semis into Tommy Murphy champions league style championship (winner back into All Ireland quarters)
5. 16 provincial semi finalists enter all Ireland series
6. All Ireland groups seeded based on Provincial final results as follows:
Group 1 - 2 provincial winner, 1 beaten finalist, 1 semi finalist - 3 progress
Group 2 - 1 provincial winner, 1 beaten finalist, 2 semi finalist - 2 progress
Group 3 - 1 provincial winner. 3 beaten semi finalists - 1 progress
Group 4 - 2 beaten finalists, 2 beaten semi finalist - 1 progress

All ireland draw
Group 1 winner v Tommy Murphy winner
Group 2 winner v Group 4 winner
Group 3 winner v Group 1 3rd place
Group 2 runner up v Group 1 runner up

Team winning All irealand, provincial and league plays 13 games plus replays
Top 16 team winning nothing plays 8 games minimum
Bottom 16 team winning Tommy Murphy plays 13 games including all ireland quarters
Worst team in country plays 9 games minimum

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 01/10/2014 09:40:18    1658840

That's a fair point. If provincial groups are seen as increasing the number of heavy defeats for some teams, groups are a non-runner unless it's for the final 16.

If 4 groups came in at the final 16 stage, provincial winners could host each group with all home games for them and one home game each for all other teams in their group.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 01/10/2014 10:22:37    1658869

INCREASED GAMES IN NEW STRUCTURE
New All Ireland Senior/Intermediate Championship will provide more games.

4 Groups of 4 teams, Each team plays other 3 teams twice ( Home and Away ). Group stages = 6 Games

Top 2 teams from each group proceeds to All Ireland QF.

Quarter Final, Semi final and Final = 3 additional games.

New All Ireland Intermediate/Senior Championship's will provide ALL teams with at least 6 x Championship games. ( Not Including National League/Provincial setup ).

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CURRENT LEAGUE AND CHAMPIONSHIP SETUP
The current setup, means many teams only get 7 National League games, and quite a few teams only play 2 x Championship games ( Provincial Championship and Qualifier ).

Meaning your guaranteed only 9 x competitive games all year.

Or 16 games If you win the National league, Provincial Championship and All Ireland title via front door with no replay.

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KEY POINTS FOR ME WHEN LOOKING AT RESTRUCTURING CHAMPIONSHIP AND LEAGUE

- More Championship games played between the very top sides in Ireland is badly needed.

- We need to reduce the amount of time between Championship games, 3 to 4 weeks is too long.

- More Championship games are needed between the bottom 16 to 18 sides, as their Championships often end just as it begins.

- By compacting the time between Intercounty Championship games, we would be creating a window for Summer Club Championship games.

- The National League needs to be made more relevant, and some Provincial Championships have many complaining about Imbalance. I suggested perhaps a merger between Provincial and League, which I understand might not work for all or be liked by many.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 01/10/2014 12:32:28    1658937

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 150

1658840

I agree with the bulk of your design, and it is very similar to myself and Legendzxix. I think that general structure for an All Ireland Championship would be most popular.

Couple of points I don't agree with from previous posts are

1. Intermediate ( Or Tommy Murphy cup ) winner entering the Senior Championship at later stage.

2. Having 2 or more x Provincial Champions in groups, or even granting Provincial Champions all home games in the group stage.

And now I explain why

1. At Provincial level, the top 16 teams progress to the All Ireland Senior football Championship. That should be it, meaning you will give the provincial Championship your all, holding nothing back.

- The winners of All Ireland Intermediate Championship should end their season on a high.
Entering the Senior Championship after their big win, and getting tanked by a Dublin, Mayo, Kerry or Donegal won't help a team outside the Top 16.

- In fact All Teams who have a good run in the All Ireland Intermediate Championship, will end on a high with their respective Counties buzzing. This would bring a level of optimism entering the following season, perhaps bringing larger crowds out to games.

2. Winners of Provincial Championships should be seeded No 1 in each of 4 groups.
- Provincial runners up should be seeded No 2 in each of 4 groups. And both Semi finalists be designated a 3 or 4 seeding, with only one team from each province in each group. This in itself gives Provincial Champions a strong edge, but all teams should play Home and away matches in group stages as I feel that will create more balance.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 01/10/2014 13:03:40    1658954

GaryMc82

Both valid points and I don't have an issue with either.
I only suggested a weighted draw to get a few big games in the group stages (a group with Dublin, Galway, Tipperary and Antrim would have little appeal but a group with Mayo, Kerry, Meath and Armagh would).
I would suggest seeding the Tommy Murphy winners with an easier draw the following year as an alternative. I only suggested re entry because one of the reasons for its demise originally was because it didn't provide re entry to the championship.

I would also suggest structuring the season as follows:

Jan - off season
Feb - Pre season
March/April - 4/5 League matches in 6/7 weeks
April/May - Club championship early rounds/group matches
June - Interprovincial championship - 4 rounds in 6 weeks
Mid June - end July - Tommy Murphy
July - All ireland group stages
August - All Ireland knock out
September - Mid October - Club quarter finals, semis and finals
Mid October- November - Provincial Club
December - All Ireland Club (final on New Years day)

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 01/10/2014 16:53:07    1659097

Doesn't matter what ideas people have about our Games and it's great to have people discussing their ideas but Congress won't change a thing, the can't even agree what colour biros to use at meetings

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 01/10/2014 17:22:00    1659114

WOW - You know I would never have thought my thread would turn out to be so interactive - this last page in particular is probably the best any of us has seen on this topic - based on prior feedback, I thought you guys were already exhausted and fed up with me :)

Seriously, my 24/7 idea didn't get much support, i.e. (Lein 8, Uls8, (M4 + C4), front door - losers of 12, 6 and 3 to Qualifiers - and with the Other Weak 8 playing TMC and winner to 10-team Last Qual Rd - All-Ireland played over 7 phases.

Permit me to choose the best of this last page -
If adopting a group phase - I would go with Legendzxix 2 groups in Lein, 2 in Uls, 1 in Muns and 1 in Conn - however, I would limit these 6 groups to 4 teams and have two other weak non-provincial groups - also, for variety of pairings, I would have each group play those from another group (Cork and Kerry get strong competition, and Muns weak 4 might go head to head). Top two in each group go head-to-head, including Prov SFs or Finals in the Knockout Last 16.
I also like the unbalanced 4x4 groups idea (with prov champs getting 3 home ties, 3 qualifying from the stronger group) - as the latter might take the bite out of group competition, why not say 4 group winners and 4 'wild cards'.

Thanks to everyone for such a lively discussion - by the way, where is Dr No, seems to have dropped off ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 01/10/2014 20:01:26    1659157

All 32 counties want to compete for the Sam Maguire regardless of being realistic or not. We saw the fuss division 4 teams kicked up when being kept out of the qualifiers. I thought provincial groups was an option but if a number of counties fear being tanked on more that one occasion, it's a non-runner. There is an obsession with the champions league format. I don't think it's suited for the GAA championships. Even the group stage for the last 16 I suggested, while it's an option, I wouldn't suggest home and away games. A group stage for the final 16 would mean provincial championships being played earlier and taking games from the league. It's ok taking games from the league for all counties but if it's only 16 counties benefitting, it's not an option. Counties will not want to participate in a second tier group stage with out a route back to the main championship.

If a group stage involving all counties is not an option, having 50% of the counties from all provinces in the last 16 stages appears the best option with minimal change.

I'm not in favour of New York being in the championship. Division 3 and division 4 teams not making the final 16 in the championship are outside the top half in the two national competitions. These counties should enter the Tommy Murphy Cup as a secondary competition for the rest of the summer. The winners should take on New York in a one off game the following Spring. The weekend of the division 1 semi-finals would be the best weekend for the game. It'll be two weeks before the division 3 and 4 finals should the TMC winner make one of those league finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 01/10/2014 21:39:09    1659203

tirawleybaron
County: Mayo
Posts: 153

1659097
GaryMc82


I generally like your Scheduling calender for the year, definitely has some merit to it. Although I have a couple of things I wouldn't be gone on.

1. I would prefer to have All Ireland Club Championship final before Christmas, and allow all players a clean break for Christmas and January. Also I would prefer All Ireland Club Champions to be crowned in that season, with New Years day being the first day of the following year.

2. I would suggest running the All Ireland Intermediate football Championship competition alongside the All Ireland Senior Football Championship. This would free up room in mid summer for Club Championship football around the country, and I think the Club Championships need Summer football.

With regards the group stages of the New All Ireland Senior Football Championship, I think most years would see the likes of Tyrone, Derry and Down replace Antrm. Now in saying that Antrim may well become a major force in football soon enough, in which case they would be a massive draw. But it could be attractive enough group games.

Example: All Ireland Senior Football Championship group stages.

Group A - Kerry, Galway, Tyrone, Laois

Group B - Mayo, Monaghan, Kildare, Limerick

Group C - Donegal, Meath, Tipperary, Sligo

Group D - Dublin, Cork, Roscommon, Armagh

INTERMEDIATE FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP

Group A - Down, Offaly, Wexford, Louth

Group B - Westmeath, Cavan, Antrim, Wicklow

Group C - Leitrim, Derry, Waterford, Carlow

Group D - Clare, Fermanagh, Longford, London

New York can play off with London for entry, as can Kilkenny if they are willing to field a team.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 01/10/2014 21:40:43    1659204

It's hard to have a so called even champ when some teams are spending frightening amounts of money, there needs to be a cap on what a county spends and it has to be split 50-50 between Football and Hurling and the League/chanp ideas that people are posting would be a start, imagine if Dublin footballers were drawn v Kilkenny at the moment, the result would be 1 sided, the same with Kilkenny hurlers v Louth another mismatch, at least in Hurling they have different grades but no cap on spending so the strong teams get stronger and the weaker teams go nowhere. Have to cap spending

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 01/10/2014 21:54:23    1659212

omahant
County: USA
Posts: 422

1659157
WOW - You know I would never have thought my thread would turn out to be so interactive - this last page in particular is probably the best any of us has seen on this topic - based on prior feedback, I thought you guys were already exhausted and fed up with me :)


There are various problems with the National League, Provincial Champioship and All Ireland football championship that we all know about and accept. And It is good to hear different perspectives on such matters from different people from different area's.

I set out the following points when drafting my Idea
- More Intercounty Championship matches, especially played between top sides.
- Less time between games, 1 week or possibly 2 weeks max between games.
- Designated time set out for Club Championship football.
- National League thats relevant to Championship.
- To re-structure Provincial Championships outside of maybe Ulster.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 01/10/2014 21:59:08    1659219

If 8 division 4 teams had a disdain for the Tommy Murphy Cup, I cannot see a tiered championship coming in. Even offering to send the winner to New York as I suggested is unlikely to be enough of a carrot!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 02/10/2014 12:25:14    1659301