Good research there Ballydallane.Just wondering,what u mean by assists created?

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 14/09/2014 19:32:13    1651958

I was doing an analysis of the Kilkenny's players' performances in last week's match. Richie Hogan, unsurprisingly, was Kilkenny's most effective player with 15 possessions, 6 points from play, 3 assists for points, 1 assist created, 1 other scoring chance created but not taken, 2 defensive clearances and 2 blocks/hooks/dispossessions. Of the starting outfield players Walter Walsh was, again unsurprisingly, the least effective with a shockingly low 4 possessions. He did get 1 point and 1 assist to be fair but not much else outside of that.

Defensively these stats are telling; these are the numbers for the 6 starting backs in terms of how many clearances they made and created (ie passed for a colleague to clear). Paul Murphy 10 (including 2 assists and 2 assists created), JJ 9, Tyrell 7, B Hogan 5 (scored a point also), Buckley 7, but Joey Holden did not put in one single effective clearance all afternoon and only created 2 for colleagues. A huge discrepancy with his defensive team mates and backing up my original assertion that he was out of his depth. Tipp's Noel McGrath picked up a huge 21 possessions, comfortably ahead of everyone else, and most of those possessions came on the side Holden was patrolling. Now McGrath drifts all over the place and is difficult to pin down so it would be harsh to pin it all on Holden, but would McGrath have won so many possessions with a more assertive number 5 (Tommy Walsh, Kieran Joyce) in place? IMO, probably not.

Another interesting stat concerns Michael Fennelly. By common consensus he had a poor game and only had 7 possessions. However, he scored a point and assisted for 2-2 (once of those was a tackle where he dispossessed a Tipp player and TJ Reid scored a point. I count these as assists). It shows how much of an influence this man can have if he can get on the ball. Kilkenny must find a way to get him into the match the next day - even if he doesn't start midfield he may drift back as a third midfielder, allowing Richie Hogan drift forward into the centre forward pocket

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 14/09/2014 20:33:24    1651978

I think I double posted by accident there. An "assist created" is basically the assist for the assist if you know what I mean. I felt this stat was important as often times it's this player who wins the original possession and plays it to the player who gives the final assist (but seldom gets credit for it).

Similarly I think the "assist for clearance" stat should carry equal prominence to a clearance itself, as most of the time it's this player who wins the hard ball and plays it to an unmarked teammate who clears. It's only fair to count both I feel.

I have figures for Tipp players too but have yet to collate them fully. Suffice to say Noel McGrath and Padraic Maher had the most possessions with 21 and 17 respectively. Paddy Stapleton had the least of the outfield starters with just 4.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 14/09/2014 20:51:09    1651984

Yes ballydallane,i believe your method gives a better and more conclusive rating of a players overall contribution in a game.Created assists,and creative passes,should indeed be included,as they are just as important as assists,or even scores themselves,and upto now,have always been ignored.Interesting that P Stapleton had only 4 plays in the game.R Power did a bit of damage on him.I think he could be a weaklink.Id bring M Cahill onb for him in replay.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 15/09/2014 12:58:42    1652153

I should have said assists for clearances,instead of creative passes,but either way,this is a good system.I always thought Lar got over the top credit for his 3 goals v KK in 10 final.Granted they went a long way towards the victory,but his overall contribution was fairly minimal.I believe he only touched the ball once apart from his goals.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 15/09/2014 15:54:05    1652262

Tipp's stats are interesting. In the backs, Padraic Maher was the most dominant player with 17 possessions, and made or created 8 defensive clearances. Kieran Bergin's stats were also very impressive, 12 possessions, 6 defensive clearances, 0-3 in assists, and 2 assists created. Cathal Barrett, who pretty much cleaned out Walter Walsh and Aidan Fogarty, was the third most impressive back, with 10 possessions, 0-2 in assists and 4 defensive clearances.

Tipp won't be overly happy with the other 3 backs. Brendan Maher was surprisingly subdued with only 6 possessions, making only one defensive clearance and creating one more. James Barry was slightly better with 5 possessions and 2 clearances made. Stapleton fared the worst with just 4 possessions and 1 clearance, although ironically he was the only starting back to score for Tipp.

Watching from the stands, it was obvious that Power and Reid had the beating of Stapleton and Barry (almost won Kilkenny the game, really) and the stats bear this out. Both Reid and Power had 12 possessions each, Reid scoring 1-2 from play, assisting for 1-1 and creating 2 more chances which weren't taken. Power scored 2-1, had 0-2 in assists, created another assist and 2 other chances which weren't taken. O'Shea will want a much tighter performance from this line (Barrett excluded) for the replay.

In midfield, Shane McGrath and James Woodlock, while not as eye-catching as in the Cork game, still chipped in with 0-3 and 0-7 in assists between them.

In attack, Noel McGrath had 21 possessions, scoring 0-4, assisting 0-3, created 2 assists and created another 2 chances not taken. Phenomenal stats and surprising as most of the post-match plaudits went to his forward colleagues. Bonner and Corbett were next highest with 13 possessions each. Bonner was more productive in his possessions, scoring 1-1, assisting 0-3, creating 3 assists and another scoring chance not taken (the missed penalty). For 13 possessions, Lar's return at first glance is low-ish, scoring 0-2 and assisting for 0-1. However, he created 4 other scoring chances which weren't taken (hit the post, the missed penalty and the missed Callanan goal chance) so on another day his contribution could have been more devastating.

Callanan and Dwyer didn't have a huge amount of possessions (8 and 11 respectively) but they were both extremely efficient, both scoring 0-5 from play. Interestingly, neither provided any assists during the match, but the fact is they were on the end of a lot of Tipp's moves. Again, unsurprisingly to anyone watching, Gearoid Ryan was the least effective of the Tipp forwards with only 7 possessions and one point (which he should really have goaled), and no assists. He did put in the most hooks/blocks/tackles of any Tipp forward though, with 3, which probably sums up his role in the forward line as a worker rather than a scorer.

Jason Forde made an important contribution in his brief cameo, scoring one point and putting in a block on Conor Fogarty which allowed Bonner Maher set up John O'Dwyer for a point.

I didn't get round to assessing Eoin Larkin and Colin Fennelly the last day. They both had very busy first halves, Larkin getting 7 possessions and Fennelly 9. However, both were almost anonymous in the second half with only 1 and 2 possessions respectively. Larkin was the more efficient of the pair, scoring 0-2 and assisting 0-2. Fennelly scored 0-1 and assisted 0-2 but his deficiencies in goal scoring situations again came to the fore when he made a mess of a 2-on-1 situation in the first half. Larkin's workrate saw him getting 4 hooks/blocks/dispossessions. But 3 possessions between them in the second half is nowhere near good enough.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 15/09/2014 17:48:03    1652332

Ballydalane are you literally watching the match back in slow motion?

I can't understand these mis-informed fans who think McGrath was average against Kilkenny. Paddy Stapleton's stats seem low even though he had a poor first half
I thought he had a great second half. I am not surprised about his club man Brendan Maher's stats he was very quiet but then so was Michael Fennelly so they seemed to cancel each other out.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 15/09/2014 17:59:42    1652340

I wonder do managers read this extensively into post match stats?Ballydallane,there is a highpaid,dream job for you across the pond in the NFL.They live and breath stats.Interesting the amount of work N McGrath got through.I wouldnt have had him in top 3 canditates for man of the match,but on further reflection,his contribution was vital.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 15/09/2014 18:02:26    1652345

Cuede I reckon they do. The football boys kept banging on about the 40 possessions David Moran had against Mayo in the replay.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 15/09/2014 19:11:15    1652370

Killarney,finding out how many possessions a player has in a game is the easy part.Ballydallane has gone a bit deeper than that.That is the impressive part of it for me.Assists,clearance assists,blocks,hooks,plays etc.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 15/09/2014 20:03:54    1652387

No I didn't watch in slow motion, I watched normally and would tick when players did this or that. Given the pace of the game I had to pause it a lot.

A lot of people after a match say this player was brutal, that player was useless etc. I think the players deserve to at least have their stats counted before being criticised.

I was surprised at Noel McGrath's numbers also, and why he didn't seem to stand out more during the match compared to the other Tipp forwards. I think a lot of the reason for this is that he comes deep for a lot of his possessions, even being the target for the odd short puck out. So he may start a lot of Tipp moves without necessarily being at the glory end of it. I also think his style is less flamboyant and eye catching than, say, Bonner, Lar and Callanan. He rarely, if ever, soloes (doesn't really have the pace to do so) and tends to keep his game simple but very effective; get the ball, move it on.

I might send my stats on to Cody but he'd probably feck them in the nearest bin.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 15/09/2014 20:16:41    1652399

Here is a good piece on Tipp vs Kilkenny:
www.irishtimes.com/sport/tipperary-and-kilkenny-s-mad-perfection-brings-the-best-of-enemies-together-1.1927179?page=1

Yeah that's a fair point Cuede, maybe Ballydahane should set up a stats website.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 15/09/2014 20:27:26    1652404

Ballydallane,dont mind sending them into Cody.Im sure Eamonn O Shea would take a wee peep.I doubt ud get involved in an act of treason like that,but in a game of inches,managers should look at any advantage they can get.In this modern age of sport,there has to be a job out there for you,crunching numbers and stats.I find them interesting anyway.I look forward to your post replay stats now!

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 15/09/2014 21:35:18    1652447

Ballydalane, that makes for very interesting reading. The unselfish players always get over looked (having played as a mid fielder, I know the feeling!). I was always of the opinion of how important Gar Ryan, Bonner and Noel McGrath were to the cause and would be as big of losses as Callanan or Bubbles if missing.
McGrath always gets a hard time because hes not shooting the lights out in every game, but your stats show he was directly involved in 0-9 (was the free he won before half time included, soft and all as it was!). Against Cork he was meant to have been Tipps worst player he scored 2 points and if he had his shooting boots on, would have score 6 or 7. I'm sure he had a few assists too. After the game, I said I'd prefer he missed them against Cork and got them in the final. Against Galway, he chipped in with his few points and got the assist for Callanan's all important goal that got Tipp back into the game.

You'd imagine that Sunday Game panelist should have a look at the stats before naming a man of the match and not just pick the top scorer. Defenders often get over looked because a fella scores 1-10 and 0-9 points might have been from frees or in Lars case getting the 3 goals in the All Ireland, which got him Hurler of the Year too.

Joe_Bloggs (Tipperary) - Posts: 186 - 17/09/2014 09:38:10    1652927

Joe Bloggs, yes, if a player won a free which was scored I counted that as an assist, so McGrath's free before half time would have been counted.

On the subject of the Kilkenny team for the replay, I think there's a bit of a groundswell in opinion within Kilkenny that Shefflin should start the replay, for a number of reasons. People feel that Shefflin, even at maybe 20% what he was in his prime, could not do any worse than what Walter Walsh did the last day. I think people feel that having Shefflin come on for the last couple of minutes is having an unsettling effect on the forwards that are out on the pitch - half of them are looking over to the sideline wondering when they'll be hauled ahsore, rather than concentrating on their game. Shefflin has been hurling most of the year now, so he should be fit enough to start. If he's bad and way off the pace, then take him off. Cody has always said that no one player is more important than the team or than Kilkenny hurling, now is his chance to prove that mantra is true.

If Barrett were marking Shefflin, he would certainly be the quicker player and would beat Shefflin in most or every foot race, so I would still expect Barrett to hurl a lot of ball, but I believe Shefflin would win every high ball that came down between them (Shefflin, unlike Walter Walsh, knows how to use his height). I also think ome of Shefflin's main strengths has been his ability to make the correct decisions in split-second situations in a match. For example, I think he would have buried the chance Colin Fennelly butchered in the first half, and would never have turned down a certain point to put the team 5 points up as Richie Power did in the 2nd.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 17/09/2014 11:27:46    1652972

I also think he'll be started. Id say if ye got 45 - 50 mins out of him and 2 or 3 points it wouldn't be a bad days work.
He had half a chance to gather possession when the sides were level in the last minute, I would put that down to being thrown into a game being played at 100mph, it would have been near impossible to get to that speed straight away. I reckon for this reason he'll start him.

If Cody was to look at your stats, he'd have to play Tommy Walsh instead of Holden, Walsh will surely have a few clearances which are usually greeted by a huge roar from the Kilkenny crowd.

Going to be a long 10 days!

Joe_Bloggs (Tipperary) - Posts: 186 - 17/09/2014 11:49:10    1652980

Joe Bloggs,im not that impressed with G Ryans statistics.7 possessions and 3 blocks/hooks is not great.He also missed an open goal at a crucial time.I think workrate can be overstated.Every KK forward works as hard as him,but trouble the scoreboard more frequently also.I would start O Meara or Forde instead of him for replay.Hes had enough chances by now and hasnt delivered.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 17/09/2014 12:23:49    1652997

Not sure about Tommy Walsh.I saw him play first half v Tipp in the league and he was well off the pace.Croke Park is not the place when your legs are gone.Lester Ryan was a regular for 5/6 games but seemed to fall out of favour.Pauraic Walsh was got a good run of games also before losing his place.Walter might bfind it hard to start the replay.Henry chomping at the bit.Taggy Fogarty pushing hard.I think Henry will start in place of Walter Walsh,with Pauraic Walsh starting in midfield and C Fogarty going back wingback to replace J Holden.But who am i to second guess Cody?

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 17/09/2014 12:36:18    1653005

cuederocket
County: Dublin
Posts: 1106

1652997
Joe Bloggs,im not that impressed with G Ryans statistics.7 possessions and 3 blocks/hooks is not great.He also missed an open goal at a crucial time.I think workrate can be overstated.Every KK forward works as hard as him,but trouble the scoreboard more frequently also.I would start O Meara or Forde instead of him for replay.Hes had enough chances by now and hasnt delivered.

I no he didnt have his best performance the last day but he usually puts in a very good shift, he more or less plays as a midfielder, picking up a lot of ball in the half back line. I'd like to see his stats for the other matches.
I disagree with you on workrate - "hard work beats talent, when talent fails to work hard". And you couldnt say Colin Fennelly or Wally Walsh even come close to having his work rate.
O'Meara has been out injured since June so I wouldnt be throwing him in straight away.

Joe_Bloggs (Tipperary) - Posts: 186 - 17/09/2014 13:07:22    1653015

Colin Fennelly had a poor game in final,but theres no comparison in him and G Ryan in my opinion.Id have Fennelly all day long in my team.Sometimes stats can be misleading.I dont think any player should be given extra credit for work rate.That should be a given.Ive been watching G Ryan for 4/5 years now,and i dont think he offers enough.Scores very little,and in the modern game,you want your half forwards chipping in with 2/3 points every game.His goal miss in final was shocking.It was easier to score a goal.I was reading O Meara is fit and good to go now.Same with Forde,he was only on for a few minutes last day,and scored a point.

cuederocket (Dublin) - Posts: 5084 - 17/09/2014 13:38:58    1653038