.......last point above......in my 24/7, unbeaten MunsConn champ to Rd 5, beaten champ to Rd 4, beaten Finalists to Rd 3, beaten SFinalists to Rd 2, QFinalists to Rd 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 23/08/2014 16:24:03    1640881

Your
Lein SFists to Rd 3 is also in line with mine - what I don'tunderstand about the argument against different treatment of provinces - it seems to apply at business end only - with adjustments tolerated early on - In the real world, Galway hurling seniors gave up their 'birth right' as automatic Conn champs and a plzce in the AI SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 23/08/2014 16:36:11    1640884

Try this idea, Munster have 1 group of 6 teams in a round robin system, each team will play 5 games, top 2 play in Munster Final, probably be Kerry v Cork but you never know and more games will bring on the other 4 counties. Leinster 2 groups of 6 teams, again round robin system, top 2 in each group play in Leinster semifinals. Ulster 1 group of 4 teams, the other group of 5 teams, top 2 in each group play in Ulster semifinals. Connacht 7 teams either 2 groups of 3 and 4 teams, top team in each group play in Final or have 1 group of 7 teams, top 2 play in Connacht Final.Scrap the Qualifiers it's not helping the weaker teams like it was suppose to do and weakens the Provincial Championships. My idea means you only win the AllIreland by winning your Provincial title

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 23/08/2014 16:44:38    1640890

To Riverboys - Three of the provs would work

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 23/08/2014 16:55:57    1640896

@ riverboys - I've suggested that as well if there was to be a move to groups. I have it a bit more streamlined:

1. Divisions 1 and 2 in the league of 12 teams each with 2 even groups. 5 regular league games with the top team in each group contesting division final. Wrap up the league by end of March.
2. Start provincial groups in April:
Munster - group of 6. Top 2 into final.
Connaught - group of 5. Top 2 into final.
Ulster+London - 2 groups of 5. Top 2 into semi-finals.
Leinster - 1 group of 6 and 1 group of 5. Top 2 into semi-finals.
3. 4 provincial runners-up and 4 beaten provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster into All-Ireland play-off round.
4. 4 provincial winners and the 4 play-off winners in the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7856 - 23/08/2014 21:35:37    1640982

thats not a bad system legend and quite simple, which is an achievement.

I would be in favour of disbanding the provincial system and going to open draw, champions league style, However if the provincial systems are to remain I have a suggestion to spice them up,

Keep the 4 championships but with teams from leinster and ulster distributed to connaught and munster to create 4 groups of 8.

The interesting bit would be if the distribution of teams was done by open draw each year. so each year 3 leinster teams and 1 ulster team would be drawn to add to Connaught and Munster. This would open up the possibility of dublin v kerry munster final in Killarney for example or Donegal v Mayo in Connaught. With 8 teams then in each section the ch'ship could be run off on a streamlined formula, be it groups of 4 or knockout with a back door via a losers group.

With the distribution draw being an open draw each year it could generate great interest and different possibilities each year.

NorthKildare (Kildare) - Posts: 197 - 24/08/2014 09:26:58    1640998

24/08/2014 09:26:58 NorthKildare
thats not a bad system legend and quite simple, which is an achievement.
I would be in favour of disbanding the provincial system and going to open draw, champions league style, However if the provincial systems are to remain I have a suggestion to spice them up,
Keep the 4 championships but with teams from leinster and ulster distributed to connaught and munster to create 4 groups of 8.
The interesting bit would be if the distribution of teams was done by open draw each year. so each year 3 leinster teams and 1 ulster team would be drawn to add to Connaught and Munster. This would open up the possibility of dublin v kerry munster final in Killarney for example or Donegal v Mayo in Connaught. With 8 teams then in each section the ch'ship could be run off on a streamlined formula, be it groups of 4 or knockout with a back door via a losers group. I disagree on sides moving provinces to make even divisions of 8. Why would any county want to win a provincial title in a province they have never played in before...
And no the distribution of teams different each year would be terrible. Pointless.
The championship could be streamlined in terms of length of time It takes the championship to be played and counties could get more games if more games were played on the one weekend.

With the distribution draw being an open draw each year it could generate great interest and different possibilities each yea

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 24/08/2014 10:21:27    1641017

After these 'three' cracking AI SFs (incl the Kerry Mayo replay), I again thought that more of these absorbing matches could be had in a 'Champions Cup' stream.
So, we'd have a 'Kerry Donegal' Champs' Final - winner also to an AI SF, loser to AI QF, with Mayo and Dublin to the round before (say, the AI QF Playoff Round).
The 'All Ireland' name still makes sense, in that while prov champs have already met, the strong 16-team prov SFlists are merged with the 'Other 16' (Tommy Murphy Cup)
stream winner for the first time.
Wouldn't it be exciting to have double bill pairings such as we have seen in recent weeks - 16 prov SFlists play 2 rounds for prov crown; 2 more rds for Champs Cup and 2 more rds for
AI title ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 31/08/2014 20:26:46    1645550

Thinking on from these ideas i spot 1 major problem, club matches, so maybe a minor change to my original idea, all round robin games, all open draw, no seeding, Munster 2 groups of 3 teams, top team in each group play in final, same idea in Connacht, Ulster 3 groups of 3, top team in each group into semis, 1st team out of draw into Ulster final other 2 play in semi, Leinster 4 groups of 3 if Kilkenny involved or 3 groups without Kilkenny, top team in each group into semi and the same as Ulster. Provincial finals would be played over the August bank holiday weekend so 1st round could start mid June. YOU HAVE TO WIN YOUR PROVINCIAL CHAMPIONSHIP TO WIN THE ALLIRELAND same as the old days, championship would have certain dates set in stone so club league and champ can be played in the summer and not in october and november, also it gets rid of this cursed saturday matches. This works for club matches as you will go to home games but won;t for away games, county means you have to miss work to attend games 100 or so miles away

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 03/09/2014 08:44:36    1647255

Sides changing provinces to make up even groups or whatever does nothing for weaker football counties. We've had a Leitrim official say that it may be better for them to drop to junior where they can compete with teams for a few years, same argument could be made for several other county teams out there. Radical changes needed to give counties like Leitrim something to play for every year, not just once every 25years as is the case at the moment. Also, the formats suggested do nothing for club players. We need less competitions and better scheduling.

For what it's worth here's what I'm thinking of:
1. Abolish Minor and U21 grades, both to be replaced with an U20 grade. No U18's allowed to play Senior, no exceptions allowed.
2. Abolish early season competitions, they're not even glorified challenge matches.
3. All IC matches to go to extra time, including league games to get a winner. If teams still level after first 2 periods (15mins each way) of extra time, a max of 3 extra periods (10mins) to be played. Whatever team is leading at the end of any of these periods are the winner. Championship replays only to happen if level at end of the 5 periods of extra time, including finals if current structures are maintained.
4. Points structure for league: 3pts for a win, 1pt for a draw, 0pt for a loss. Bonus point for winner if margin >=7, bonus point for loser if loss <=3. No bonus point for any victory achieved that requires extra time.
5. Start league in mid Feb, to complete by mid April, including finals. I'd prefer no semi's or finals as it's supposed to be a league.
6. TM cup: Starts in mid May, finish end June/mid July, club championships to be played in all other counties during this time, no exceptions allowed. Div3 and Div4 teams + NY play in 4 groups of 4 (1 group of 5 if NY included). If GAA serious about NY, then their inclusion should be considered. Winners of each group qualify for Sam competition. Semi and final to be played. If TM cup winner has not achieved promotion to Div2 through the league, they get a Div2 spot for winning TM cup. They are then replaced in Div3 with 3rd lowest team in Div2 of that year. If TM cup winner is from Div4, then they are replaced in Div4 with 3rd lowest in Div3.
7. Sam: Start Aug - End Sept.20 teams in 4 groups of 5. Group stage completed in Aug. Winners of each group qualify for semi's and final.
8. Provincial/AI club championship for Oct-Nov, straight knockout competition. Bit of a squeeze for the club sides from the 4 TM counties that get to play for Sam, but should be manageable.

Whatever about points 6 and 7 which are a bit of wishful thinking, I think points 1-5 are realistic options.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 484 - 03/09/2014 10:29:12    1647322

03/09/2014 08:44:36 riverboys
Thinking on from these ideas i spot 1 major problem, club matches, so maybe a minor change to my original idea, all round robin games, all open draw, no seeding, Munster 2 groups of 3 teams, top team in each group play in final, same idea in Connacht, Ulster 3 groups of 3, top team in each group into semis, 1st team out of draw into Ulster final other 2 play in semi, Leinster 4 groups of 3 if Kilkenny involved or 3 groups without Kilkenny, top team in each group into semi and the same as Ulster. Provincial finals would be played over the August bank holiday weekend so 1st round could start mid June. YOU HAVE TO WIN YOUR PROVINCIAL CHAMPIONSHIP TO WIN THE ALLIRELAND same as the old days, championship would have certain dates set in stone so club league and champ can be played in the summer and not in october and november, also it gets rid of this cursed saturday matches. This works for club matches as you will go to home games but won't for away games, county means you have to miss work to attend games 100 or so miles away What's wrong with Saturday games?
This system would be horrible as its just group stage in place of provincial championships but no qualifiers..
Don't see any issue with not winning provincial championship and winning the all Ireland. It makes it race for sam more interesting and better with more teams able to win the all ireland
03/09/2014 10:29:12 moylagh
Sides changing provinces to make up even groups or whatever does nothing for weaker football counties. We've had a Leitrim official say that it may be better for them to drop to junior where they can compete with teams for a few years, same argument could be made for several other county teams out there. Radical changes needed to give counties like Leitrim something to play for every year, not just once every 25years as is the case at the moment. Also, the formats suggested do nothing for club players. We need less competitions and better scheduling.
For what it's worth here's what I'm thinking of:
1. Abolish Minor and U21 grades, both to be replaced with an U20 grade. No U18's allowed to play Senior, no exceptions allowed.
2. Abolish early season competitions, they're not even glorified challenge matches.
3. All IC matches to go to extra time, including league games to get a winner. If teams still level after first 2 periods (15mins each way) of extra time, a max of 3 extra periods (10mins) to be played. Whatever team is leading at the end of any of these periods are the winner. Championship replays only to happen if level at end of the 5 periods of extra time, including finals if current structures are maintained.
4. Points structure for league: 3pts for a win, 1pt for a draw, 0pt for a loss. Bonus point for winner if margin >=7, bonus point for loser if loss <=3. No bonus point for any victory achieved that requires extra time. Don't Ablish both minor and u21. Both very much have their advantages. Minor you wont see any playing inter county grades higher and its better while at inter county u21 is a god step for those not at senior grade yet but will be soon..This is even more the case at club level
Don't abolish early season competitions. Sides need games before the start of competitions and these games in a competition give a bit more meaning than loads of meaningless friendlies
All inter county games shouldn't have to go to extra time and league games definitely should not go to extra time to decide a winner. Playing 5 periods of extra time would mean 120 minutes which is way too long and dangerous for player health as its equivalent of playing 2 games in 1(club level).
Don't see any need for bonus points and why should, if introducing them, a team not get a bonus point for winning through extra time?

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/09/2014 11:18:11    1647365

03/09/2014 10:29:12 moylagh
5. Start league in mid Feb, to complete by mid April, including finals. I'd prefer no semi's or finals as it's supposed to be a league.
6. TM cup: Starts in mid May, finish end June/mid July, club championships to be played in all other counties during this time, no exceptions allowed. Div3 and Div4 teams + NY play in 4 groups of 4 (1 group of 5 if NY included). If GAA serious about NY, then their inclusion should be considered. Winners of each group qualify for Sam competition. Semi and final to be played. If TM cup winner has not achieved promotion to Div2 through the league, they get a Div2 spot for winning TM cup. They are then replaced in Div3 with 3rd lowest team in Div2 of that year. If TM cup winner is from Div4, then they are replaced in Div4 with 3rd lowest in Div3.
7. Sam: Start Aug - End Sept.20 teams in 4 groups of 5. Group stage completed in Aug. Winners of each group qualify for semi's and final.
8. Provincial/AI club championship for Oct-Nov, straight knockout competition. Bit of a squeeze for the club sides from the 4 TM counties that get to play for Sam, but should be manageable.
Whatever about points 6 and 7 which are a bit of wishful thinking, I think points 1-5 are realistic options.Having semi finals and finals in the league helps give league extra promotion at time of year when other major sports are coming to a conclusion. NY is too difficult to arrange for games. GAA are fairly serious about NY but can you really expect them to travel over to Ireland 2/3 times..

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/09/2014 11:20:18    1647367

03/09/2014 10:29:12 moylagh
5. Start league in mid Feb, to complete by mid April, including finals. I'd prefer no semi's or finals as it's supposed to be a league.
6. TM cup: Starts in mid May, finish end June/mid July, club championships to be played in all other counties during this time, no exceptions allowed. Div3 and Div4 teams + NY play in 4 groups of 4 (1 group of 5 if NY included). If GAA serious about NY, then their inclusion should be considered. Winners of each group qualify for Sam competition. Semi and final to be played. If TM cup winner has not achieved promotion to Div2 through the league, they get a Div2 spot for winning TM cup. They are then replaced in Div3 with 3rd lowest team in Div2 of that year. If TM cup winner is from Div4, then they are replaced in Div4 with 3rd lowest in Div3.
7. Sam: Start Aug - End Sept.20 teams in 4 groups of 5. Group stage completed in Aug. Winners of each group qualify for semi's and final.
8. Provincial/AI club championship for Oct-Nov, straight knockout competition. Bit of a squeeze for the club sides from the 4 TM counties that get to play for Sam, but should be manageable.
Whatever about points 6 and 7 which are a bit of wishful thinking, I think points 1-5 are realistic options.Having semi finals and finals in the league helps give league extra promotion at time of year when other major sports are coming to a conclusion. NY is too difficult to arrange for games. GAA are fairly serious about NY but can you really expect them to travel over to Ireland 2/3 times..

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 03/09/2014 11:20:19    1647368

Qualifiers have ruined the provincial championships, teams can deliberatly lose a provincial champ match to get the easier side of the draw in qualifiers. How many good teams give up with 10- 15 mins to go when 7 or 8 pts down, would they do the same if it was knockout, Cork and then Kerry were dead and buried against Mayo with a few mins to go Cork nearly caught Mayo out and Kerry did, why, because if they lose they are out. Saturday games are rubbish, people are working and can't travel 100 or 200 miles to a county match. Local club games are different it's easier to go to your local pitch after work than travel hundreds of miles and with season tickets you have to attend your county matches. These ideas of allowing losing provincial finalists into quarter finals etc are no good, why play the provincial champ for? A better idea would be to use the current system and instead of allowing qualifiers to enter at Quarterfinal stage let them enter at semifinal stage. 4 Qualifiers play in a semifinal then a B final (qualifier) where you have 1 winner, 4 provincial champions would play in semi final playoff, the 2 losers play each other in a playoff, the winner plays in the A semis which is an open draw, you have the 2 provincial champs, the winner of the playoff and the qualifier champ, 2 semi and then final. It means only 1 qualifier can make the semis instead of the current 4 which sometimes are mismatches (Dublin v Monaghan, Kerry v Cavan etc). Look it's simple enough either we play a lots of games and destroy our clubs or we set up a system where county and clubs work together, at the moment it isn't working

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 06/09/2014 09:35:32    1648664

Its debateable if the Quals have 'ruined' the prov championships - better to get a 2nd chance that lose KO on an unlucky day.

To accomodate club schedules, its important to keep inter-county competitions streamlined.

Accordingly, 16 prov SFs crown 4 prov champs in 2 rds; a 'Champs Cup' winner in 4 rds; and an AI Champ in 6 rds.
Qual Rds of 24, 16 and 10 lead to 5 AI QFlists joining the Champs Cup losing finalists in Rd 5.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2596 - 07/09/2014 18:44:26    1649195

Riverboys, please rest assured that there is no incentive at present for teams to throw provincial matches.

In theory, if matches were decided by the toss of a coin:
Provincial quarter final winners would be 7 times more likely to win All Ireland than the losers.
Provincial semi final winners....6 times more likely.....
Provincial final winners.......2 times more likely....

In practice, 2001 - 2014,
13 provincial quarter final winners have won Sam as against 1 QF loser
10 provincial semi final winners have won Sam as against 3 losers
8 provincial final winners have won Sam as against 2 final losers.

There is no advantage in losing provincial matches.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 07/09/2014 21:19:42    1649285

Intercounty football has teams of equal level playing each other in Spring in the league (which only half take seriously) and teams of different level playing each other in a Winter league/cup and a knock out provincial championship. All of which ended up in only 6 or 7 high intensity top level matches all year. Hurling produces twice that because they have a tiered structure.

I think the provincial round robin is a good idea but not in addition to a round robin league.

1. I would start the intercounty season in March (1 month preseason training in Feb and 1 month of no football in Jan)
2. Start with round robin provincial leagues - producing 4 provincial champions and 1 outright winner - min 4 games and max 7 games - winner gets a trip to NY. (Ulster and Leinster in 2 groups)
3. Using results in provincial leagues for all Ireland seeding - top sixteen fight for SAM, bottom 16 into Tommy Murphy
4. Both competitions have four groups of four producing 4 semi finals and 1 winner (min 3 games and max of 5) do quarters if needs be
5. Separate provincial leagues from All Ireland if needs be and have relegation playoffs to decide following years top/bottom 16.

Every county is guaranteed 7 games and top counties about 10 spread out every 3 weeks (except final and semi finals).
Club championships to be played week after intercounty match and club leagues to be played week before intercounty matches.

20 min Extra time in all matches followed by 5 min per half first score from play wins to decide winner
Round robin matches gain points as follows: 3 points for win, 2 for draw, 1 for loss less than 3 points and 1 point for 3 goals or more.

After a year or two I would seed the All Ireland groups to put the better teams together (four of top six in 1 group etc and give those groups additional places in quarter finals i.e. group 1 produces 3 teams, groups 2 & 3 produce 2 teams and group 4 produces 1 team

Based on rankings you would have a draw like this
Group 1 Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Kildare producing 3 teams
Group 2 Cork, Mayo, Derry, Meath producing 2 teams
Group 3 Donegal, Armagh, Galway, Laois producing 2 teams
Group 4 Down, Roscommon, Monaghan, Tipperary producing 1 team

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 08/09/2014 09:30:23    1649348