Another format idea - in football, 8 counties get to the Prov Finals under the current structure, with 24 others to
Qual Rd 1. The 8 play 3 KO rounds to crown a 'Champions Cup' winner, that is the only beaten team, and goes straight to the
AI SFs. Beaten teams in each round in quantities of 4, 2 and 1, go to the Qual Rds 2, 3 and 4, respectively.
With 'the 24' starting in Qual Rd 1, quantities then in Rds 2, 3 znd 4, will be 16, 10 and 6 (Qual Rd 4 could be called
the AI QFs). Three winners from Qual Rd 4 / AI QFs join the Champs Cup winner in the AI SFs.
In Qual Rd 1, the 16 non- Prov semi-finalists could be kept apart from other Qualifiers to determine the
'Tommy Murphy Cup' champ on the road to Sam.

Hurling could have a sinilar system, albeit with less teams - in 2014, Kilk would have played Cork for the
Champs Cup - 10 other teams playing for 5 AI QF places to join Champs Cup loser.
Will I be taken apart again ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 16/08/2014 16:22:57    1637651

Wow - this looks quite impressive - 130 readers and no input - I would have thought this would generate more interest than mh 24 7

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 16/08/2014 20:40:34    1637727

The 8 prov finalists could come from the first round of 16 - that is, 16 prov SFinalists determined by the top 4 from each prov based om NFL positions. The 8 losers could meet the 8 winners from the Other Low 16, for the TMC Cup on the road to Sam.
Would the 8 Prov Finalists playing 3 additional front door KO Rounds not add more excitement and more attractive pairings prior to the AI SFs ? agreed ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 17/08/2014 17:38:19    1637945

omahant
County: USA
Posts: 397


I would need to write it down on a chart, to understand it fully Omahant. I don't doubt it would work or be successful, but I just haven't been able to get my head around it yet.

I want to keep the current provincial championships, and scrap the current Qualifier system.

If your system works or refreshes it, then I would back it. We do need to keep Club Championships in mind when refreshing the Qualifiers though, as so many other players need championship football.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3017 - 17/08/2014 18:00:13    1637961

Stick to day job shocking bad idea with little thought

theshamen (Mayo) - Posts: 129 - 17/08/2014 20:22:26    1638069

you cant get rid of back door system not fair on lesser teams that mite get a run to q/finals

togood (Laois) - Posts: 3 - 17/08/2014 20:49:16    1638087

Hi, Omahant.

Are there no provincial finals?

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 18/08/2014 19:46:10    1638546

Hi Tommy 58 -

I am keeping the Prov Championships - at the beginning of this thread, I mention the 8 prov finalists.
To get there is optional - start with the irregular current 32/33, or as I state in my 3rd post above, start with
4x4 derived from the league. Play a full 4 rounds from the Last 16, crowning Prov champs after 2 rds,
and a winner of the Champions' Cup after 2 more rds. The Champs' Cup winner to the AI SFand joins 3 winners from
the Last 6 of the back door.
So Phase 1 = 8 Prov Finalists + 24 back door; then 4 champs + 16 bk door; then 2 champs in CC Final + 10 bk door.
In my 3rd post above, I propose spliting the 24 initial qualifiers into 2 tracks, one merging with initial prov losers to play for interim
silverware, the TMC on thd road to Sam.
Are you familiar with my 'flagship' issue, my 24/7 ?
Lein 8, Uls 8, (Muns 4 + Conn 4), the 3x8 'regions', and along with a '4th 8' (TMC), the Very Best '4x8' structure.
So, starting with 24 +8; go to 12+16; then 6+14; to 3 byes (after Muns Conn champs playoff) + 10

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 18/08/2014 20:57:46    1638588

18/08/2014 20:57:46 omahant
Hi Tommy 58 - I am keeping the Prov Championships - at the beginning of this thread, I mention the 8 prov finalists.
To get there is optional - start with the irregular current 32/33, or as I state in my 3rd post above, start with
4x4 derived from the league. Play a full 4 rounds from the Last 16, crowning Prov champs after 2 rds,
and a winner of the Champions' Cup after 2 more rds. The Champs' Cup winner to the AI SFand joins 3 winners from
the Last 6 of the back door.
So Phase 1 = 8 Prov Finalists + 24 back door; then 4 champs + 16 bk door; then 2 champs in CC Final + 10 bk door.
In my 3rd post above, I propose spliting the 24 initial qualifiers into 2 tracks, one merging with initial prov losers to play for interim
silverware, the TMC on thd road to Sam.
Are you familiar with my 'flagship' issue, my 24/7 ?
Lein 8, Uls 8, (Muns 4 + Conn 4), the 3x8 'regions', and along with a '4th 8' (TMC), the Very Best '4x8' structure.
So, starting with 24 +8; go to 12+16; then 6+14; to 3 byes (after Muns Conn champs playoff) + 10 Munster and Connacht are not lesser beings their champions shouldn't have to play off for right to get to level of Ulster and Leinster champions.
That's the main and only flaw with this and I don't see any way how you can defend your ideas when you have those counties from Munster and Connacht deemed as not as high as Leinster and Ulster

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 18/08/2014 21:10:46    1638601

To Tommy 58 -
..cont'd......3 byes + 10 Qualifiers represent Phase 4, then the 8 team AI Series over 3 Phases; starting with symmetric front door 24 and 7 phases, hence name 24/7

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 18/08/2014 21:18:16    1638606

To Ormond -

Stick to my Champion Cup idea in this thread. Play the current format to get to the Prov SFinalists - 16 teams, all Provs treated equally, playing 8 SFs, 4 Prov Finals, 2 Champs Cup SFs anf Final.
If you put all 24 non- Prov Finalists in Qual Rd 1, 16 will be in Rd 2, 10 in Rd 3 and 6 in Rd 4 (the AI QFs).
3 AI QF winners play the Champs' Cup winner in the AI SFs.
My 24/7 idea is only explained for the purpose of full colour to Tommy 58.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 18/08/2014 21:30:54    1638616

Sorry, Omahant, but I don't see the Champions Cup as an improvement.

A top team would only have their AI title on the line for 2 games out of 7. The Champions Cup would not have me on the edge of my seat. I don't see the philosophy behind it.

On the 'Munsacht' proposal, while it seeks to address the advantage that byes have over preliminaries, my instinct is that the 4 provincial champs should have equal prestige. I would prefer to balance the provinces at the start.

tommy58 (Dublin) - Posts: 169 - 19/08/2014 20:37:14    1639070

18/08/2014 21:30:54
omahant
To Ormond Stick to my Champion Cup idea in this thread. Play the current format to get to the Prov SFinalists - 16 teams, all Provs treated equally, playing 8 SFs, 4 Prov Finals, 2 Champs Cup SFs anf Final.
If you put all 24 non- Prov Finalists in Qual Rd 1, 16 will be in Rd 2, 10 in Rd 3 and 6 in Rd 4 (the AI QFs).
3 AI QF winners play the Champs' Cup winner in the AI SFs.
My 24/7 idea is only explained for the purpose of full colour to Tommy 58. You still have Munster and Connacht champions entering all Ireland series a round before Leinster and Ulster champions. That rules your proposal out everytime for me. All provincial champions should be equal which is not the case in any of your proposals

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 20/08/2014 12:22:43    1639264

To Ormond -

My 'Champs Cup' idea has '4 Prov Finals' all treated the same (see earlier). Eight strong Finalists playing three KO rounds to push only 1 team thru the 'front door' who then meets three others coming via the 'back door' in the AI SFs. A lot of mouthwatering games - if you are up for it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 21/08/2014 16:32:59    1640074

Omahant, like you know, formats need to be simple. If you are explaining, you are losing and that's the bottom line.

It's not right that some Munster and Connaught counties receive a bye to semi-finals and thus bypass Q1 be default. I've suggested before that the league should be used to seed early provincial rounds. The 8 losers from the Munster (2) and Connaught (2) quarter-finals and the Leinster preliminary (3) and Ulster preliminary (1) should enter the Tommy Murphy Cup as their competition. The qualifiers then should be as follows:

Q1: 12 teams - 2 Munster semi-finalists, 2 Connaught semi-finalists, 4 Ulster quarter-finalists and 4 Leinster quarter-finalists.
Q2: 10 teams - 6 Q1 winners, 2 Ulser semi-finalists and 2 Leinster semi-finalists
Q3: 6 teams - 5 Q2 winners and Tommy Murphy Cup finalist.
Q4: 8 teams - 4 provincial finalists, Tommy Murphy Cup winner and 3 Q3 winners.

The above removes the unfairness of Munster and Connaught teams bypassing Q1. Provincial finalists are all treated the same. Losers to Q4 and winners to AI quarter-finals as it is right now. The Tommy Murphy Cup offers teams at that level a route back to the qualifiers. It's essentially treated as a level below provincial championship. The TMC runner-up enters Q3 and the TMC winner enters Q4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 21/08/2014 22:01:52    1640265

legendzxix


You would need to seed the ulster and Connaught championships for that to work otherwise you could potentially have Mayo (if the lost in quarter finals) or Donegal (if lost Ulster Preliminary round) in the Tommy Murphy.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1140 - 22/08/2014 08:41:00    1640276

Why not follow a world cup format, for traditionalists separate each province into two groups of eight, rezoning some counties to suit based on their geographical location.

each team plays one another once, that's a minimum of three games for each team, then top two in each group go to a semi and final. The winner then progresses to an AI semi final.

Scrap the qualifiers all together, the only reason it was brought in in the first place was to increase revenue although some will say it gives teams an extra opportunity to win the all ireland, only four or five teams can win the all ireland anyway!. With the group stage you can realistically lose once and still be in with a chance.

For London and New York, and other teams abroad looking to progress you could have a preliminary round. If you got four teams for example from outside Ireland, give them an opportunity to enter the group stages by playing the team that finished bottom of their respective group the previous year. This could be an open draw.

The winner of the AI would play 7 games regardless of which county won it, I know there would be some drubbings in the group stages but you would get this regardless of what championship format you play.

I know there would be opposition to rezoning counties, but the current numbers within each province isn't exactly ideal and people are getting over Galway playing in Leinster in the hurling now? - How you would decide who plays where would be a problem though granted.

Cilldara2012 (UK) - Posts: 88 - 22/08/2014 09:54:32    1640297

22/08/2014 08:41:00
tirawleybaron
County: Mayo

legendzxix


You would need to seed the ulster and Connaught championships for that to work otherwise you could potentially have Mayo (if the lost in quarter finals) or Donegal (if lost Ulster Preliminary round) in the Tommy Murphy.

You are 100% right. It will require agreement from all provinces for their respective first rounds to be seeded. In Ulster it will be the two lowest teams on league placing. For Connaught, it will mean the 4 lowest on league placing. In Connaught's case, it should not necessarily mean that the two seeded semi-finalists avoid each other at that stage. The winners of the two quarter-finals should be deemed Winner A and Winner B. The Connuaght semi-final draw using this year's league as an example; Mayo, Galway, Winner A and Winner B. Mayo could draw Galway and Winner B could draw winner A.

My suggestion is not a drastic change. It tackles the issue of teams parachuting into provincial semi-finals and avoiding Q1 by default. When teams did contest the Tommy Murpy Cup they said it required a route back into the championship to work. The suggestion made achieves that by earning the TMC runner-up a place in Q3 and the winner a place in Q4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 23/08/2014 12:03:52    1640785

To Legendzxix -

Your idea is not bad. Your point about merging two TMC teams into the Qualifiers may be a fair compromise in getting around my need for a 'Munsacht'
champs playoff. Most posters seem to despise my different treatment of the small prov champs - which I would be OK in dropping provided what
is put in its place works.

Your idea seems to have adopted much of my plan - e.g. Q1 with identical 12 prov breakdown; TMC champ to Final Qual Rd etc.

I want all teams to advance only one round more than their beaten opponent - e.g. Lein losing Finalist to Qual Rd 4, with Champ to AI QFs (Rd 5).
So, I don't like the existing structure which puts all Prov Champs in Rd 5 and their beaten SF opponents in Rd 2.
The one thing I don't like in your idea - is that in Muns and Conn this 'round gap' is increased to 4 (rd 5 v rd 1) -
in my 24/7, I reduce this to 1 (rd 3 v rd 2).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2638 - 23/08/2014 16:14:59    1640876

There has to be give and take. Provincial finalists are treated the same. The bigger provinces gain back some fairness in that their semi-finalists enter at Q3. There has to be compromise. That seems fair.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7909 - 23/08/2014 16:21:01    1640878