hill16no1man
County: Dublin
Posts: 8403

i have said he has done great with that bunch of players
but yesterday i dont honestly feel it was down to him and any kind of tactics he displayed
it was more down to his players on the day they took their chances and were the better team on the day.
you say that he completly nullified or done this or that
but lets be honest 13 of dublins starting 15 didnt perform on the day, we put in a similiar performance against mayo
in the 2012 all ireland semi final aswell and horan wasnt lauded with a tactical masterclass.
even when we were on top in the first half it was ultimatly down to two guys flynn and connolly that were on fire.
you cannot expect to win an all ireland semi final with so many players not on form on the day.

I agree with you to a point hill & JMcG would be the first to say that it is the players that win games.
Where he has to take credit though is in the way he has those players prepared to carry out the jobs allotted to them. When things weren't going well there was no panic, no wild shooting, they just kept doing what they had faith in & that comes from the manager.
Contrast that with Dublin in the second half who lost their composure completely having looked so good in the first half.
I said here before that one of the things JMcG would try to do would be to pressure Dublin players into making bad decisions & that is what happened.
You say that 13 of the 15 Dublin players didn't perform, and yet they were flying in the first quarter. What changed? What happened to bring that change about? What caused Dublin to grow worse as the game went on while Donegal got better?
The answer to those questions lies with the respective managers.
This is not to criticise or condemn Gavin, far from it, but in the battle on the sideline he came a distant second.

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 01/09/2014 16:52:33    1646240

DL had a Plan B for when the blanket defence didn't work and the Dubs hadn't a Plan B for DL's Plan B. That apart , Dublin are a side capable of great football & this'll hurt them enough to come back strong for a few years. Nowt to stop them In Leinster anyway, maybe that's part of the problem, they're not tested until the AllIrl semis.

AnFearDonn (Kilkenny) - Posts: 65 - 01/09/2014 16:58:50    1646247

Best of luck to both teams in the Final.

Fair play to Donegal.

We fell asleep and didnt wake back up. Didnt see anything amazing tactically there from Jim McG. He certainly didnt plan for Johnny Cooper to abandon centre half back.

Honestly, after 25 mins Dublin just went into 2nd gear. Cooper went haywire and Dublin had a spectacular collapse. Gavin didnt react.

We will be back next year.

JayP (Dublin) - Posts: 1772 - 01/09/2014 16:59:59    1646248

richie

no no im not suggesting that hold on now
credit were credit is due donegal were the better team on the day nobody is suggesting otherwise.
but to say it was just down to donegal not letting dublin play that so many guys were off form wouldnt be true either
the body language was very evident in most of them players that they were having an off day
i dont feel dublin were rattled at all
they wouldnt have gone into a 9v4 lead if that was the case and created the chances to put the game to bed
the fact was even in that first 25 minutes it was only the two guys on form for dublin
in the shape of flynn and connolly, that is the telling thing as it wasnt as if as a team they were motoring.
we still created enough chances in the second half
we kicked 10 wides from a lot closer to goal than the points we scored to go into that lead in the first half.
what donegal had in spades was work rate and that is why i say dublin didnt perform
as that has been a key elemant over the last two years under gavin
we may have been attacking at will but the players were still tracking back when we were playing well
yesterday alan brogan,mdma,cian o sullivan didnt even try to get back
the first 15 minutes of the second half time after time donegal had 3 or 4 guys taking on two dublin defenders
when they broke up the field

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/09/2014 17:01:29    1646249

Muckross

I agree with you to a point hill & JMcG would be the first to say that it is the players that win games.
Where he has to take credit though is in the way he has those players prepared to carry out the jobs allotted to them. When things weren't going well there was no panic, no wild shooting, they just kept doing what they had faith in & that comes from the manager.
Contrast that with Dublin in the second half who lost their composure completely having looked so good in the first half.
I said here before that one of the things JMcG would try to do would be to pressure Dublin players into making bad decisions & that is what happened.
You say that 13 of the 15 Dublin players didn't perform, and yet they were flying in the first quarter. What changed? What happened to bring that change about? What caused Dublin to grow worse as the game went on while Donegal got better?
The answer to those questions lies with the respective managers.
This is not to criticise or condemn Gavin, far from it, but in the battle on the sideline he came a distant second.


your right they didnt panic but had connollys shot gone in it would have been game over
and mcguinness himself all but said that too.
I didnt say that them 13 guys were flying in the first quarter
anything but I said even at that time it was only the two guys who were flying in flynn and connolly
and it was a credit to them both that they got us into that position.
I do agree with you in the battle on the sideline on the day gavin didnt react to what was going on
totally agree with you there but it wasnt any masterclass stuff from mcguinness to change the game
as if i was in charge at 9v4 up
I would not have had o carroll out around the middle of the park tracking murphy
and i wouldnt have left fitzimons on the edge of the square with mcfadden
at that stage dublin had donegal were they wanted
we were always going to out point donegal so with that lead
all he had to do was not give away a goal
and make donegal have to go looking for one
then the gaps would have opened the other end of the field and chances would have come far easier
maybe il get the gig sometime after gavin haha

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/09/2014 17:12:02    1646259

I'd agree Fabio. Another point worth noting about the 9-4 element of the game is that 6or7 of those Dublin points were completely spectacular individual long range efforts from Flynn and Connolly, the type of scores that even Donegal's defensive system couldn't prevent, but also the type of scores that Dublin couldn't keep getting in the second half, especially shooting into the Canal End and it's swirling wind. It was a remarkable feat for Dublin to fire 9pts in that early spell, because they rarely breached the Donegal concrete defense at all in the process, and relied instead almost totally on the shooting brilliance of Flynn & Connolly. Surprisingly, the first forward that Dublin replaced was Costello, who looked to me like the player most likely to breach the Donegal system close to goal. Certainly the McGees, McGrath & the Donegal defensive shield completely obliterated any threat that the Dublin full forward line presented. Indeed, BB was so deflated by the second half that he couldn't even convert a couple of simple frees. Dub fans deluding themselves about their superior players who had 'a bad day at the office' seem to have forgotten how good Donegal were when they won the title in 2012. Yesterday was enough of a reminder for the rest of us.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3448 - 01/09/2014 17:18:49    1646266

fabio8
County: USA
Posts: 396

1646233
to put it down to having a bad day at the office is being disrespectful to donegal i feel...donegal are the reason dublin had a bad day at the office..they completely knocked them off their game and out of their comfort zone and made it very difficult for them...as regards chances yes dublin had some bad wides in the second half but i am more speaking about goal chances..at that stage the dubs looked a bit clueless and things were just not happening for them as donegal had knocked them off their game..you couldnt say the dubs were having a bad game at 9-4...it was when donegal got to grips with them that the performance dropped off and the donegal players and management deserve full credit for that

like i said fabio im not taking away from donegals performance
defo performed better on the day
but i dont agree at 9v4 that the guys who performed poor were flying
it was really only the two guys who got us into that lead
as they were at the heart of everything
if we were playing as a team i feel we wouldnt have let them back into it then
the work rate just wasnt there

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 01/09/2014 17:19:10    1646267

think the donegal team overall is underrated..its easy to forget just how good they were in 2012 and won the all ireland quite comfortably..that team are most certainly back and improved in some ways

fabio8 (USA) - Posts: 2182 - 01/09/2014 17:24:12    1646273

to put it down to having a bad day at the office is being disrespectful to donegal i feel...donegal are the reason dublin had a bad day at the office..they completely knocked them off their game and out of their comfort zone and made it very difficult for them

_______________________


Brilliantly said. Couldn't possibly agree any more.

Donegal deserve all the credit here.

Dublin weren't good enough because Donegal didnt let them be good enough.

So credit once again to them. Outstanding performance and result.

Great fans.

Great people in general.

Wish them nothing but good luck in the final.

Until we meet again and all that ......

:)

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 01/09/2014 17:32:04    1646281

before donegal start licking their lips and warming their hands there is nothing won, you beat a good dublin team. but it means jack (excuse the pun) unless silverware comes with it. semi finals in years to come are long forgotten.

heresam (Dublin) - Posts: 156 - 01/09/2014 17:32:15    1646282

One thing which should be addressed and acknowledged is the nonsense spouted on this thread by some Dublin fans about how one player (possibly only one) Michael Murphy, could make the Dublin team. Personally, I was quite happy to let such talk develop for obvious reasons but today it must be flagged.

Some Dublin fans on this thread went into explicit detail about how Murphy would be the only one to make the Dublin team, listening to Pat Spillane too much possibly! Never, ever a smart idea..

Lacey, the two McGees, McGlynn, Gallagher, McFadden, McHugh, MacNiallais would all be very welcome on that Dublin team I'd imagine.

Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1321 - 01/09/2014 17:51:35    1646292

Well played to Donegal and hope it's a good final. Yis have a hard act to follow from 2013.

On a positive note from Dublins point of view maybe now some of these geniuses who were suggesting Dublin would win the next 10 All Irelands and that Dublin should be split in two will realise how stupid and lacking in knowledge their views were,or maybe not I suppose.

SLLY (Dublin) - Posts: 463 - 01/09/2014 18:01:31    1646297

I find it amusing to see everyone's shock at yesterday s result -donegal are 2012 champions (didn't get recognition dey deserve)..dublin are an excellent team who won a terrible leinster championship (but found the back 2 back too much as many others have in the last 30 years)...dats why i backed donegal @ crazy odds yesterday :)

curnew (Wicklow) - Posts: 449 - 01/09/2014 18:01:48    1646298

flack
County: Dublin
Posts: 399

1646150
I think mcguinnes did great, but people are taking credit away from the players with the love overdrive . I mean Murphy, lacey, macfadden would walk on any team in the country, mcbrearty, McHugh and the McGees aren't far off either, theres always the bones of a great team there. That said, yesterday he (jmg) played an absolute blinder, one of the great manegerial displays of our time, adjusting the gameplan, the line of defence, substitutions, etc.
From our point of view, I couldn't understand how forward some of our defenders were let wander. Cooper got two balls up in the forwards in the first half and he honestly looked like he didn't know what to do there. I wouldn't give him stick for it but, he's a natural corner back after all, not a centre forward.
Ah well.... Next year well be back, meaner n ever!

Cooper followed Murphy out the pitch, which was what McGuinness hoped would happen. MDMA was put in to mark Neil Gallagher when big Neil was put in on the full forward line, which was the smartest stroke that McGuinness ever played. MDMA was taken out of the danger area when he did this, he would have continued to run amok for the game if he stayed up the pitch.

So yes, tactics in a game cuts deeper than the old fashioned nostalgic nonsense that spillane and co spout on tv.

The great thing about all of this is that next year, something else will be found out, and a system will be made look redundant. All on the day.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 01/09/2014 18:04:05    1646299

Well said Wayno, we don't need to to hear from the 'ifs and buts' bridgade.
To play and beat the Dubs in Croker was fantastic and now the Kingdom in the final,it's a dream come true for us, the next day we will have to put in a similar performance,Star and JOD and Moran &co are a force to be reckoned with.
The Dublin fans I met were gracious in defeat and wishing us well,enjoyed the craic in The Big Tree for a few pints before and after the match.
I don't know why we pay any heed to pundits,Spillane said we were a team in decline,I think the future looks good for us,getting through Ulster is always a sever battle though.

TirChonaillabu2 (Donegal) - Posts: 344 - 01/09/2014 18:04:45    1646300

One thing which should be addressed and acknowledged is the nonsense spouted on this thread by some Dublin fans about how one player (possibly only one) Michael Murphy, could make the Dublin team. Personally, I was quite happy to let such talk develop for obvious reasons but today it must be flagged.

______________________________

Yep, That was me.

I said that. And i stand by almost all of it.

Michael Murphy would definitely get into the side, That much i change.

The rest I stand by. All it is, Is my opinion.

Donegal where the better team yesterday and deserved their win, But man for man, In my opinion Dublin are better.

Bear in mind im talking individuals here, Not the collective group/team. And its teams that win games not a single individual.

Dublin didnt play well yesterday cause we werent let. Donegal had a system, A plan. It worked. No complaints.

And anyway, There is feck all wrong with believing in your team. I never said anything disrespectful in the build up to the game. Anything derogatory.

In fact i actually gave credit to Donegal and said i don't think the stick they get is justified.

Dublin fans had confidence, Which we are entitled to do before games and why wouldnt we have felt a certain degree of confidence ?? But we have shown humility and class in the aftermath of yesterday in coming back here and congratulating each and every one of you.

Donegal are a class side, They where before the game and are even more so after it. But dont start talking nonsense yourself now just cause our opinions differ. You obviously rate your side and i rate mine. Thats all their is too. Grow a bit of a thick skin. You're in an All Ireland final, No need to come on here trying to prove a point.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 01/09/2014 18:12:38    1646303

Donegal_abroad
County: Donegal
Posts: 298

1646292
One thing which should be addressed and acknowledged is the nonsense spouted on this thread by some Dublin fans about how one player (possibly only one) Michael Murphy, could make the Dublin team. Personally, I was quite happy to let such talk develop for obvious reasons but today it must be flagged.

Some Dublin fans on this thread went into explicit detail about how Murphy would be the only one to make the Dublin team, listening to Pat Spillane too much possibly! Never, ever a smart idea..

Lacey, the two McGees, McGlynn, Gallagher, McFadden, McHugh, MacNiallais would all be very welcome on that Dublin team I'd imagine.

----
That comparison is just so simple though. It's like saying that Jack Charlton's players in 94 would all make the Italian starting 11 because we beat them 1-0 in the WC. Charlton had a very effective system just like Donegal but who would have Coyne and Sheridan over Baggio and Signori? You've got to remember that this is the same Donegal team that was relegated last year, lost an Ulster Final to a poor Monaghan team and stumbled over poor Monaghan and Armagh teams this year. This Dublin team had been putting away decent teams all year with cricket scores. Just because they ran into a bus (literally) yesterday doesn't mean that suddenly Dublin don't have great individual players. Yesterday was a victory for organisation, tactics and no little skill but would I prefer that Dublin starting 15 to the Donegal 15 man for man? Absolutely, all day long. And that's by no means being disrespectful to Donegal I just think that Dublin have better players.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 01/09/2014 18:15:05    1646306

One thing which should be addressed and acknowledged is the nonsense spouted on this thread by some Dublin fans about how one player (possibly only one) Michael Murphy, could make the Dublin team. Personally, I was quite happy to let such talk develop for obvious reasons but today it must be flagged.

Some Dublin fans on this thread went into explicit detail about how Murphy would be the only one to make the Dublin team, listening to Pat Spillane too much possibly! Never, ever a smart idea..

Lacey, the two McGees, McGlynn, Gallagher, McFadden, McHugh, MacNiallais would all be very welcome on that Dublin team I'd imagine.

----
They didn't say Murphy would make the team - I think the verdict was it was marginal between him and O Gara - but nowhere near Kevin mac.

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 01/09/2014 18:15:17    1646307

That was mostly Meath lads Donegal abroad
JayP, Gavin should have addressed Cooper going walkabout, after all he put him centre back, I assume with the instructions to go forward as often as possible, he would've been better off with 7 real forwards there, if that's what he wanted. And if it wasn't his idea, he should've hauled Cooper back with an almighty bollocking

flack (Dublin) - Posts: 1054 - 01/09/2014 18:23:19    1646312

Dionegal_abroad


So would Durcan

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5016 - 01/09/2014 18:30:41    1646319